Excellent post, Shattered. Hope you have a good weekend, HW. I'll look for your posts.

~ Snow

SD - a VERY good post.

WAT

I dont believe POJA and PORH will happen if it is just left to 'grow'. Surely both partners have to put some effort in to follow it? Surely it should start immediately once we learn of it?

Like it or not, the OW *is* an issue. HWs husband has contact with her every day, so she cannot be forgotten about yet.

I know if I was in HWs position, I would definitely want to know of any contact between them. Its about rebuilding trust and getting the details of the A out into the open so recovery can begin.

As long as HW and her H are still in this place, these issues must be discussed.

Sending love xxx

<small>[ March 13, 2004, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: ks2001 ]</small>

Sorry HW...been going thru the old retirement thing. You have had some great advice above. At least, it has been great in the fact that your situation has been correctly outlined and you now know that his actions are not unique.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do I lift this stupid FOG? What should my game plan be? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't. That isnt your job. Your job is Plan A, to make it tough on him. Plan B, when you pull everything away...will force fresh air into the fog...and a lot of pain for him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought we were on our way to recovery but how can we be if he's still in the fog? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is NO recovery until all contact with OW ends. So, please understand that. He cant go thru withdrawal until there is no contact. And he cant go to recovery until he goes thru withdrawal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you think that being in the fog means he may still be having the A? Or at least glad he gets to see her every single day? It makes me sick. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whether or not he is having a PA is irrelevent. She is meeting needs of his. emotional needs thru the continued contact. HE IS CAKE EATING!! He has it all now, wife at home and sex with her...and OW at work, and maybe sex with her. He has it all. That is why most of these things have to go to Plan B. Why would he give up what he has. He has the best of all worlds. So does she. She is getting the same benefits...and the losers are you and OWH. I still say it is time for that little letter telling your husband why you are talking to OWH. And you go over there and tell that man (OWH) what has happened. Especially since they are both in the military (WH and OW), neither your husband nor the OW want this thing to steamroll. I'll bet a month's pay that as soon as OWH gets involved, that this thing shuts down immediately. This is part of Plan A.

Plan B is when you have done all the things in Plan A...meet his most important needs, tell everyone involved about the affair, negotiate an end to the affair and NC. You have not done all of this. Thus, you are aiding them in continuing in their cake fest.

So, what is your plan? Write that letter I told you about. Go talk to OWH. Then get your Plan B letter ready, in case he does move toward her and not away. And also, besides talking to OWH, I'd talk to the chaplain you told us about. He can keep confidentiality, and he can help your husband see what you cant.

Get busy...or continue to have the same results. I KNOW it is tough! I have been there and bought the t-shirt. But, one quote I love from Dr. Phil (my wife loves watching him) is when a guest talks about what they are doing, he asks "How's that working for you?" You MUST complete Plan A and see what happens. And then be ready to go to Plan B.

In His arms.

<small>[ March 13, 2004, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Nice one mortarman, good to see you back.

You give a good 2x4

How are you, hw?
Views on mortarman's post?
Sending love

WAT -

I thank you for validating my frustration. I become very confused by all of this when my H acts like I'm a mad woman for being so upset. His theory is (quoting word for word here) "I f'ed up...get over it."

When he says that and I know I can't just get over it....I think maybe I am crazy. Maybe I am the problem here.

But I come here and I ready posts like the ones you have left me here I know that I am not crazy and that I am dealing with this the best way I can.

Thank you for that.

Shattered -

Of all your bullets this one strikes me as the most cruel:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Lack of interest in learning how to recover. They are in such a state of denial, among other things, that they "don't need to recover". I finally "coerced" WW to read SAA aloud with me, but it was just a courtesy to me that she did it. It meant nothing to her, because at the time, she was still living the fantasy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why? Why? Why is this so hard to do? Just pick up the stupid book. He picked up one book the other night and I was elated!!!! Totally rewarded him for his efforts. But do you think he has picked it up since then? NO! He hasn't. I just want to recover. This would help me so much. He just won't do it. He won't even try. It's like I'm here by myself and I'm trying to recover by myself. I didn't have an A. He did! I'm a good wife. I have combed through our past to see if I could blame myself for this.

I can't! I can't blame myself. I'm a good wife, excellent lover and the world's greatest mother. I believe that. I believe my kids are lucky to have me as a mom. I also believe that he was very lucky to have a wife like me. If that's not good enough for him then so be it.


Shattered - you were the first one to welcome me to this site. You have been with me from the beginning. You have witnessed my roller coaster ride. I can't thank you enough for being here for me.

Everyone on this site has been very helpful. Even the WSs here have been helpful and supportive. They sit back and take the beatings offered up by some BSs but they continue to come here to help those of us that need their insight.

I'm hurting today. I see no end to this mess. I can't take the roller coaster much longer. I need a sign from him. I need to see something from him. Just throw me a bone, brother...just one bone. Pick up the book....or just come home and put your arms around me and say "I love you Baby. I love you so much."

Hi hw - when my WS was in the throes of her affair, denying it to everyone, I relied on my close friends and family to keep reassuring me that I was not crazy. I must have asked a thousand times, "Am I screwed up???" The answer was always "no." Like you, it was natural to question my own sanity. I was dumbfounded by the bizarre behavior and statements of my WS which prompted me to arrive at my tongue-in-cheek alien abduction theory. No earthly explanation could do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Nonetheless, I still suffered from self doubt. I knew I had faults and I kept that always in mind - as most rational people do. WSs in romantic affairs typically paint over all the mirrors in their lives, which restricts their recognition of faults and poor judgements - at least those relating to their marriages and their affair behavior.

It's tough to maintain the balance of being ever vigilant to recognize your own mistakes while dealing with a partner in a romantic affair. I believe a certain amount of self doubt is normal and necessary for BSs. We need to keep our mirrors clean.

WAT

KS and Mortarman -

You guys have tag teamed me here. I just want you to know that I hear what you are saying and I know what I need to do.

I should take the following steps:
Call OWH.
Call Chaplin.
Give H letter explaining my actions.
Have Plan B letter prepared.

I know I need to do this. I'm not sure I have the strength to do this now. I just do not want to cause any more problems. I do not want to push him away from me. I love him but at the same time I'm weak from all of this and his lack of response to my EN's.

Let me give you an example of what I've been doing as part of my plan A. I clean my house constantly. I provide SF on demand and do most of the demanding myself. I even called him Friday and told him to come home early before the kids came home from school so we could be together before I went out with the girls from my softball team. I try to keep the kids out of his hair as much as possible. I cook dinner every night...something that was very rare before the A.

So I'm doing all of this.....what does he do in return? I'm not going to say that he isn't doing anything because he does work out with me almost everyday. He is doing somethings to meet my emotional needs. (SF being a great big one.) But does he help me around the house? NO.

Saturday morning I came downstairs to find McDonald cups all over the living room. Banana peels on the end table and just random crap laying around. I was furious!

I did get upset and launched into an LBing fest. He just said "fine, I'll help." Why does he have to come to me getting upset before he does anything.

He's a grown man. Like he thinks that banana peel is going to walk to the garbage can. Or those McDonald's cups are going to throw themselves away. He was never like this before. First of all my kids don't eat fast food. But now anytime there's a chance that I won't be home for dinner that's where he takes them. Before the A he cleaned the house as much as I did. He did most of the cooking because I was never home in time to cook dinner.

So now, he has an A and suddenly he doesn't have to do crap around the house?!?!?!

BULLSH*T!!!! I'm your wife...not your mother!!!!

OK...venting now. I'm sorry. I'm just really confused. One minute I'm in recovery and everything is cotton candy and bubble gum....then I'm not in recovery and he is still in the A (who knows) and I want to just scream and cry.

WAT -

I am caught in this cycle of just wanting to shake him and wanting to hug him.

I try so hard. I know I am not without faults. I know that I have not been the best wife and mother 24 hours a day 365 days a year. I do not think I'm perfect. I do know that I am a good wife and mother. I know that and I will never doubt that. He can make up what ever he wants to to try to justify his actions but that won't ever become the truth. That'll be his way of making himself feel good.

I want my M but not at the expense of my sanity and my spine. I know plan A is all about being a doormat. I know that I have been playing a very good doormat. I'm at the point now where I want to start fighting back. I want to say so many things to him but I hold that back and I continue to plan A.

Plan A doesn't say anything about going into the bathroom and crying after you see your house in a mess after you have cleaned and cleaned and cleaned...all the while your H is sitting on the couch watching TV.

Plan A doesn't say anything about crying yourself to sleep at night because you can't believe your entire life is ruined. Where in Plan A are the BS's allowed to hurt and ask questions? Where in Plan A are the BS's allowed to drop a 2x4 on the WS? I feel like it's my turn now.

I've sat here for months and felt like a piece of crap while he goes to work with her every single day. He calls me throughout the day to tell me of things that are going on so I won't worry about him. He tells me about funny things that happen and all the while in the back of my mind...I'm thinking...you're with her. You are with her.

I'm going through all of this by myself and I am pushing him for recovery...what do I get in return? "I f'ed up...get over it." That's what I get in return.

I want to say "You're damn right you f'ed up. Now you get over it!" Then I want to take the position I've been offered on the west coast making almost double my current salary + commission. I want to take my girls and move to the other side of the country and start my life over. Start a life without some POS H that would through his life and family away for the chance to be with a woman that will pull her underwear down for anyone that pays her attention (I've confirmed this by the way...it seems she's not a great as he thought she was...not to mention she would never in a million years leave her H.).

Then I want to send him a letter saying: "you were right...you f'ed up.....I'm over it." and attach that to our divorce papers.

That's what I want to do. That's my version of Plan A.

hw - what do you believe about the status of the affair? Over or ongoing?

Your actions should differ depending on the answer to this. It's even more difficult for us to determine this than you - and you have good reason to wonder.

I recommend you get an appointment with Steve Harley. He can help you plot a plan that covers both scenarios - over or ongoing.

WAT

WAT -

I really think it's over. I do. I can't explain that to you. I realize you have to go off of what I say. I honestly think it's over.

I do, however, think he is still being friends with her. I am 99% positive of that. That makes it very hard for me to deal with this.

I want to have an appointment with the Harleys. I am troubled that my H might see this as me trying to gang up on him. I've read other posts from other BSs here that state their WS thought that these sessions were geared toward the BS and not the WS. He is so stand offish when it comes to doing anything to recover. It's like he wants to just forget about it and go on as if nothing ever happened.

WAT, let me ask you this (and anyone else out there that is willing to comment)

Do you think it would do any good if I gave him a time line to read the books and go to counceling? What if I send him this web address and the name of the books I want him to read and say this:

Here's the link to the website I have been going to for support. I want you to read the concepts and articles. I'd like for you to read the message boards as well. My user name is Heroswife. Please read some of my posts. In addition to going to this website I also want you to read HNHN, SAA, and 5 Love Languages. You have until XXXXXXX to begin. I'm not saying you have to be finished but you have to start and we have to discuss the things you have read about. I need this for recovery. I have asked this of you several times and still have not taken the initiative to begin. Without you taking these actions recovery will never begin. If you chose to avoid doing these things then your commitment to me and to out family will be made known. I have forgiven you of the A. I can see beyond that but I cannot heal. We must work together to overcome this obstacle in our life.

I'm asking this of you not as punishment but so we can build a marriage that is better then either one of us could have ever imagined. I want this not only for us but for your children. They need to understand how a marriage works. Our actions are teaching them how to behave in a marriage. They will one day seek a man to complete their lives and start a family with. This man will more then likely be just like you. They will want someone that will treat them the way they see you treat me. They will treat their spouse the way they see me treat you. I want the picture we are painting for their future to be very different then the picture we are painting today.

I want our girls to see a wife that is devoted to her husband and gets up every morning trying to think of ways to improve the life of her family. I want them to see a wife that strives to be a strong Christian. I want them to see a wife that can be a successful business woman all the while meeting the needs of her husband and children.

In the same respect I want our girls to see a husband that puts the needs of his wife above all others. A husband that is devoted to his children and always has time to hug them and nuture them. I want them to see a brave man that will fight the world to protect his family.

We are all so proud of you and your accomplishments. Considering all the things you have been through and all the death you have witnessed while at war, I do not think these requests will require a great deal of effort. I think you will see the benefits from your efforts immediately. If nothing else it will give me hope. I pray that is enough benefit to get you started.

I love you more than anything in this world and I want our marriage to survive this. I want to heal and become the wife of your dreams. Please help me reach this goal.

Do you think that would make a difference of would it only add more pressure?

HW: You are asking all of the same questions we all asked. You are tired and scared. it isnt fair. You didnt sleep around. I know how you feel. (see everyone, my wife used to say I didnt know how to validate another's feelings <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) Anyway, your feelings are typical for a woman that has gone thru what you have. And guess what? Your husband's actions and feelings are typical for what he has gone thru.

SSSooooooo?!?!? What to do? Well, you are doing a great job on meeting his needs. But go back and read about Plan A. Meeting ENs and not love busting is NOT enough. As long as you do just that, then he will cake eat, you will continue to have your love drained out. He will not move to end it and make things better for you. And you will not get stronger...you will get weaker. So, when are you going to finish what you have to do in Plan A? Everyday you wait, you will be less ready to do it. Everyday you let it continue, you tell your husband that it is okay for this to continue.

I know your fear. When I was advised by Steve Harley to tell everyone involved, I was so afraid she would just leave for good and never talk to me again. To stay with the OM. But guess what? My wife said after she came home that their relationship started falling apart the moment I found out, and continued to fall apart as others found out (like our kids, friends, pastor). I thought for sure that telling would ruin everything.

The Harleys have come up with the plan. Sometimes that plan goes against what our feelings tell us. You have to trust this, or it will not work.

Sure...your husband will go ballistic when you tell OWH. But him saying above for you to get over it tells me that this boy needs a wake up call. He has just gotten away with it...get over it.

No, he doesnt get to call the shots on this one. You are now in control. Like I said, I do not think that your husband will run away, or to the OW. I think both of them will be scared to death that their careers will be over, and maybe worse (jail time?). I think your letter to him will explain why you did this, that you will not be disrespected anymore. That he will put you first. I think all of the needs meeting you have been doing have put him in a position where he will not want to leave.

Dont get me wrong...at first, he WILL be angry! But, someone is about to get angry. And when it becomes you instead of him, this marriage will be over.

Lesson number one on being a BS...it aint fair and you have to pull most of the weight for awhile. But, everyday you dont follow thru and wait for something he WONT do on his own, is one more day you didnt have to go thru this.

So, I say again...we are here for you. You are not crazy. But you will go crazy if you dont do something about this soon. Before it is too late, before you lose all faith and strength....finish Plan A. Plan B will be your rest and escape if he doesnt respond to Plan A.

You are in a better situation than most of the BSs on here. Why? Because both the WH and the OW are in the military. They have broken the law. And they know it. So, neither of them want this out. Civilians have it harder because our laws no longer hold adultery as a crime (which it should). In Virginia it still does, but doesnt have any real penalties, except that the BS can have an immediate divorce, and there will be no alimony paid to my wife, etc. We need to change the laws in this nation on adultery and divorce to reflect the military. Divorce only when there is fault (adultery, abuse). And then, the person at fault should lose custody of the kids to the BS, lose joint marital property...and maybe a little jail time.

This stuff is killing our families and our society. We had better wake up.

Sorry HW for the political speech. I will get off my soapbox now. You need to get moving...for your husband, yourself and those little ones.

In His arms.

HW...Plan A is NOT about being a doormat. You are not supposed to be a doormat in Plan A...you are to work on yourself.

I didn't get my H back by cleaning house, offering sex (though we did do this quite often), keeping kids away from him, etc.

I did it through acknowledging my faults, vowing to overcome them (already worked on this prior to dday), apologizing for not being there for him pre-A when he needed me(you can read some of my posts from early after dday to get more background), not kicking him out, reading every A book I could get my hands on, agreed for me to go into IC as well, learned how to really listen to him and becoming his friend again. Those are the Plan A type things I did.

The other things I did, I'm not sure are in the MB guides. Here are some of those...

*Insisted upon NC right away. Stayed on him until he wrote NC letter. Every reason he came up with not to write it I busted through with logic.

*Made it clear to OW that she wasn't getting him and that it would be in best interest of her and her family to stay away from him and my family!!

* Exposed A to light of day...her H, my mom, his mom, kids, best friend. OWH exposed to OW mom/dad and his parents.

*Teamed up with OWH to compare notes and to enforce NC

*Busted every aspect of his fantasy world...jointly tore every piece of it down with him.

*Insisted he read all books with me, that he read all this site, that we get counseling with SH, that we get IC and regular MC...this wasn't an option..if he wanted me and his kids was mandatory. Sometimes he did these things mostly willingly and other times because he knew I meant it. My belief was to get him to do these things by whatever means necessary because once he did it he was a sharp guy and would start figuring things out himself. I knew that both of us needed to process the A in order to recover.

*When he slipped on anything I would LB, beg, whatever I needed to do in order to get him back on track.

*Pushed relentlessly for the full truth about A (details, his feelings, conversations, etc). He even took two polygraphs..though to get him to take first one...was very difficult...I begged, pleaded, freaked out, screamed, etc.

*Never hid my feelings from him!! He saw my despair, he saw me suicidal, he saw me passionate for him, he saw me vomit, he saw me crying hysterically, he saw me strong and determined, etc.

*Challenged him a father...told him that up until the A he had been a world class father but I would not raise my kids with him if he didn't shape up and overcome all this. We had always agreed to raise our kids by example...this wasn't the example we agreed to. This worked really well with him!!!

*Told him over and over how much I wanted him, needed him, how much our kids needed him, told him how determined I was to be his best friend again, told him how much I loved him.

*Showed empathy for him and his role as a WS...once he started coming out of fog land...his life sucked as bad as mine. Guilt almost ate him alive.

Bottom line: I never allowed him to hide from himself (self honesty was one of his problems), never allowed him to distort what really happened, never allowed him to take a break from recovery.

I was scared too, sometimes I came close to pushing him to hard...but darn it...we were going through hell and I wanted more then just my old life back...if we had to go through this hell...we were darn well going to make something about it worth it. I needed to feel safe again...if we didn't address all the issues and put plans in place to safeguard against then...then how would I ever feel safe.

So the risks for me were worth it...I am not one to tolerate half measures or limbo land...we worked hard during those first months of recovery...but we had the fastest recovery I've seen on these boards.

We now have a relationship where we both communciate well, we talk, we are open, we spend all our spare time together, we are best friends, we meet each others emotional needs, we are equals, we are teammates!

hw - I wish I knew the answer.

I have zero experience in recovery.

Perhaps the best strategy for you is to make the focus NOT so much on the affair and continued contact, but on the marital problems that preceeded the affair.

I am personally uncomfortable with the idea of an ultimatum and with "forcing" him to read the materials.

But I do believe you could make a good argument to him to enter counseling yourself. Your explanation could reasonably be that you are having difficulty handling your emotions and your processing of what took place. You need counseling to help YOU recognize how to be the best marriage partner, not counseling to help you to help or "fix" HIM. Then you get advice from Steve for how to move him along in the recovery process along with advice for your issues.

My suggestion shouldn't be read that only you need all the help. It's a suggestion to get your foot in the counseling door as a first step to getting him to come along - eventually.

I hope you get additional ideas.

WAT

It is so easy to comment from the outside - but it could invalidate what you are feeling.
Alot of what you said is going on sounds textbook. His attitude and fog, lack of work twords recovery, his excuses.
You sound angry, frustrated at the lack of validation, hurt, alone, neglected.
I am in the same place as you most days. I am trying to work plan A and not LB and make it real again.
I was out in the market and saw a couple about our age and he looked at her so lovingly, like they had a special secret together - and I came home raging angry! That is supposed to be MY LIFE and he f'ed it up! I went off on him! I was so jealous of those strangers!
I believe it pushed back a lot of the good work we had been doing.
Our MC says I should keep that anger and bring it to my individule sessions and not blast my husband with those feelings no matter how real and valid they are. FOR NOW...but he will be held accountable in the long run.
Your biggest thing is the work enviroment. How much longer is this assignment? can you deal one day at a time? will this assignment make a difference in his career or advancement?
This stuff sucks some days.

We counseled with Steve Harley..he wasn't pro BS or WS...he was pro Marriage! He never took sides. He acted as a coach and mentor more then an actual counselor. He helped us put a recovery plan in place. We each had homework, etc.

Why is everyone so against ultimatums???

Is it just the word???

I don't like the word either..however...some things were just non negotiable to me...to take some of the sting out we would work out a joint plan to accomplish the steps to recovery...but the steps weren't optional!!

If there is really a M to be saved...you won't scare him off with insisting on recovery steps..you might make him mad..he might rebel (until he sees you are serious) but he won't divorce you because you are insisting that he follow a recovery plan WITH you. It's not like you are asking him to do things you aren't willing to do.

Of course most of this is contingent upon the EA and PA being over with OW...no friendship can remain. Why do you think they are maintaining friendship? He hasn't admitted this has he? How can you find out for sure? If they are still acting as friends it's only a matter of time until the A flares up again...one of the books I read was very clear about that...the book was Torn Asunder by Dave Carder.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by forevertogether:
<strong>Why is everyone so against ultimatums???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My aversion to ultimatums is that it's so controlling.

I believe the same destination can be reached walking side by side, rather than being forced to follow.

or....

A drop of oil in the hinge can be more effective than kicking the door open.

WAT

HW: I cant possibly follow what mortarman and forevertogether have said. What fantastic posts! LISTEN TO THEM! You are strong enough to do this. You are an amazing woman who has achieved so much, a true inspiration to us all. You have a successful career, as a woman, that means you must have a little of the kick [censored] b!tch inside you! Stop letting him cake-eat! SF is good, but he shouldnt, IMHO, be able to get it on demand every single time.

Tell OWH and the chaplain! Do it now! You leave this much longer and the love will be slowly drained out of you, and all your enthusiasm and potential for recovery will be gone.

Sending lots of love.

<small>[ March 15, 2004, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: ks2001 ]</small>