SD, I'm definitely still in the padded room, but tonight I'm drinking lemonade not wine. I think I had more fun writing to you all while drinking the wine. If I start talking about magic mushrooms you better have Dr. Harley call me.

SD, I might be a bit slow here, but what breakthroughs are you talking about? I'm wondering if I'm going to end up like NY. H stays with me for 6 weeks and then realizes he can't live without OW. MC was a real downer for me today. H made the comment that he is staying with me because he can't picture telling our boys we're getting divorced. He also did say that he doesn't want to end our marriage and then have regrets. However, it is glaringly apparent that I ain't the one he loves.

Something hit me tonight. I genuinely have had good self-esteem for many years now. I realize that I am now losing my self-esteem. Hearing my H verbalize his love for another woman is really wearing me down. It's not like he's throwing it in my face. I'm asking for honesty. However knowing this is causing me to lose hope. The therapist today said something that MBers might not agree with, but I think he was trying to shock H. We had been talking about Hs ambivalence. He said he feels a real block inside of him that keeps him from giving to me. Of course he wonders why it was so easy to give of himself to OW. The message being something must be wrong with me or us that he can't give of himself. After talking about that for a while the shrink said, "Well, if you really don't want to stay with CV and won't commit to recovery than you need to grow some balls and go be with OW. However, if you want your marriage to recover and grow you need to commit to the marriage and work on it." The shrink was telling him things that I'm not sure he gets. This need for admiration is probably due to being stuck developmentally due to his abusive dad. He projects his dad onto me. He thinks OWs admiration was sooo sincere. Shrink told him there's a difference between admiration that is deserved, and admiration that a parent might tell a kid that everything they do is great. He said that's not healthy. He said real admiration is mixed with the S trying to help the partner grow. He just looks at me as being critical, as apposed to wanting him to grow and be healthy. Of course OW gave him this unconditional love, acceptance, and admiration. I realize I can't talk about her anymore. I try to tell him, shrink also, that everybody is admiring during the romance stage. I can tell he just doesn't buy it. OWs admiration was so sincere.

OK, so you answered my question. H can't feel in-love with me until he's out of the fog. But wonder if he doesn't come out of the fog? How do you know he will? He was so tied to OW. My God, she met all his needs. I'm just now realizing how intense it must have been because of the time they spent together. It wasn't like they saw each other once or twice a week. It was 40 to 50 hrs. a week. How do you break out of that fog? Harley actually says when a man has an EA you need to move out of town. Right! If that's true I might as well throw in the towel.

He did arrange for us to go to the Retroville weekend in April. We went for a walk this evening and he was glum, and I felt anxious and down. I debated if I should say the following, but I did. I told him for now I'm willing to carry him because he is experiencing this grief. As much as I hate it, I know losing oW is hard on him. I told him I'm hanging on because for some reason I believe in him, our M, and keeping our family together. He probably would have rather had me say, "Go be with OW."

If any of you folks believe in prayer, send them our way. Personally I'm not sure how to pray for us. Wonder if God doesn't want us to stay together? I Have no idea anymore what the divine plan is supposed to be in this situation. Thanks to all of you for sticking with my post and writing me yesterday and today. I really need you encouragement now. CV

Wow. We are kind-of on the same path. Except you are more patient and understanding than I am, and my WH is not as foggy as your is (anymore).

Of course, my WH is not living with me. Which, I do think for us was for the best. We were tearing each other apart with our anger.

We are intense people.

I posted on Recovery, which I don't do often, becuase when I do something bad usually happens - one of those nasty speed bumps someone was talking about earlier.

But I need their unique perspective on why I am feeling the way I am feeling, after getting some of what I have been praying for. Hm. The human emotions are extremely interesting.

You are doing awesome. As far as I can tell, you are having "normal" thoughts and feelings. OR, we are incredibly identical in our thought processes and emotional make-up.

I think "normal" is more probable.

Take care, chin up, keep keeping on!

SS

Hi cv55,

You have probably never seen me before because I post rarely these days, but I was a very active member for about two years...most of the posts you see in my reply were made over an intense one year period....

But anyway, I read about your snooping with interest because I had done the same thing with my X. I took him to task with every new discovery and felt justified and vindicated and all the rest, but what I did by this was I pushed him away and caused myself intense and unnecessary pain. But like you I was overwhelmed by a need to know. And tell me....when you find out new stuff, do you not get that satisfaction of being right intermingled with the horrible pain? I did.

My gut feeling was telling me he was not telling the truth about many things...and over time I found evidence to back my suspicions up. But I also found things I did NOT expect, like the fact that he was actually living with the OW of the time for six weeks in a hotel while working away from home, and coming home to us (and MY BED) on weekends. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

This particular discovery devastated me and I could not let it go. COULD NOT. I brought it up all the time, and it probably ended up causing my X to go find someone else to have an affair with, and he is now married to her.

He never told me the truth about her for three whole years...and then all it was was that he said yes, he left us for her. Moral of this story is that you may wait a very long time before you get him to admit anything....

I guess I am writing to you because I can see what is going to happen if you do not reach a point where you can accept that he had an affair and all that probably went with it - and then MOVE ON. I could not do it...I was reading here every day, but until he actually left the house I could NOT do Plan A. I was too caught up in being RIGHT.

If I had that time again, I think I would have gotten real about myself, and said, ok this happened, and this is why, and I am going to change that. The wonderful Plan A you are giving this man that you are still so angry at is commendable...and they do say that if you act like you feel it, eventually you WILL feel it again.

Some advice I read here was to remember the girl you were when your husband fell in love with you. What did you do for him, say to him, look like for him...act like, lots and lots of things that have changed over time, usually because of real life...and then that in love feeling disappears. So we have to recreate it by going back and being all those wonderful things we were in the bloom of our own love.

If I had my time again I would not have shown my X the grief I felt about his infidelity EVER (well after D day, anyway). Like yours, my X has a major need for admiration....and your constant reminders of his infidelity are not fulfilling that, because it reminds him of what a jerk he was. Making him feel good about those qualities he has irrespective of the affair will be what he needs right now...

You are lucky cv55....the affair is over and you are in a transition stage of recovery. Make no mistake, what you do in this time will affect what happens greatly. Do you want to save your marriage? Then snooping is out...he doesn't like it, and it only causes you more pain as well as providing fuel for another confrontation. Bringing up the affair is out...except in marriage counselling, perhaps, where it is a neutral territory and fair to both of you. Plan A'ing ALL the time is needed, and it is hard, hard work to Plan A ALL the time. Your tongue will be black and blue with your biting it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Creating a safe, warm, loving, admiring and peaceful home for your H should be paramount right now...and it won't be easy for you. You will have to find other ways of airing your grief.

You are already doing the right thing by coming here to vent instead of blowing off at your husband. Keep that up...and keep your lip zipped around your man. For every time you bring it up and cry about it, you are reminding him of the fact that he isn't a nice guy....and he will again go out and look for someone who thinks he is.

Well, getting off my soap box now....but I just had to reply to you, since I see so many similarities in my actions and yours. You have a CHANCE at your marriage cv, and that other poster was right....do you want to be (proved) right, or do you want to be married? It is a mindset thing, because you, and only you can control how you react to this. And what YOU do affects what your husband will do. Be strong.

Love and light,

Jacky

SS and Nina Too, thanks for your replies. I am going to start a new post so that the subject highlights what I'm going through preaently. So what I write there will respond more to what you both wrote to me.

Nina, I'm done snooping for now. I don't want to know any more. I think my snooping has served the purpose of helping me understand just how involved they were, which explains this terrible withdrawal. OK, I'm going to start the new post.

I echo shattered dream's sentiments - Anne, that was an awesome post!

Your H has his own journey. You can act in ways that will help his reactions and development, but it won't happen for him until he decides and wants it. Meanwhile, if you are doing your own recovery you won't have to obsess on his.

That's it in a nutshell, isn't it?

CV55, your posts sound like you feel you're stuck. Like you're not making progress (plural 'you', you and your H). Trust me, you are both doing the very best you can given where you're at in this mess. Listen to what Anne said. Re-read your post and see how much you and your H are communicating already. He's beginning to understand what you mean by "honesty." See how much you're beginning to understand about the way you work as individuals and as a couple.

It would behoove you to find some information on how to listen. He's told you he feels you cut him off when he tries to express himself. Here is a passage I turn to from time to time. It is from Don-David Lusterman's "Infidelity: A Survival Guide".
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Listen attentively to what your partner is saying. Don't interrupt.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Listen for the feelings that lie beneath your partner's words (this one is powerful!).</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Look directly at your partner.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Be aware of what your body is saying to the other peron - for example, nodding agreement or disagreement.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Resist the temptation to answer back.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stop after a few minutes to put into your own words what your partner is saying. Even take a stab at telling them what you imagine they might be feeling.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Draw your partner out as completely as you can. Lose yourself in your partner's feelings. Put yourself completely in your partner's shoes.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You now know he needs to be admired - that is such an easy EN to fill! Admire him for being brave enough to turn to you; for taking the more difficult but more honorable and rewarding path. Admire him for his communication efforts. For his strength (I know he's leaning on you tons right now but he's NOT with OW and that takes a lot of strength - it's not her that's special, it's the high that he misses). Admire him when he interacts positively with the kids. Thank him for keeping the cars clean and the tanks filled. For paying the bills on time. Admire how good he smells, how shiny his hair is, how warm his smile is. Tell him how nice a certain shirt looks on him, how well a color suits him. Tell him what a resonant voice he has. Tell him you like the fact that he reads so much and is curious and intelligent. Just WATCH him and you'll find tons of things to admire. That is a need you can easily fill with just a little practice.

The block he feels when it comes to giving to you is normal. This is a situation where he needs to just do the act and wait for the feelings to follow. You can help by showing him appreciation for every little thing he does, to reward his efforts. He will be encouraged, and he will feel rewarded for his giving. The giving will become easier for him little by little.

It's so natural to worry about competing with OW, to worry how you can ever compete with the infatuation and early "in love" fantasy feelings. It does you no good at all, though. When you find yourself headed down that path of worry, stop yourself and find a way to admire your H. You turn a defeating activity into a powerfully postive one. Be sure you follow through and actually admire your H, don't just think about it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I know you are frustrated, and you feel hopeless sometimes (maybe most of the time). You are doing really well. Your H is doing his best, too, and that's all anyone can do. You guys are improving by leaps and bounds, you really are.

Thanks Turtlehead! While I was writing my new post, you were writing to me. If you read that post you will know where I am. I actually feel total despair this morning. I can't stop crying.

You're post was great. Very hopeful. I just am not seeing the progress people are talking about. I can't seem to see the light at the end of this tunnel. H is not giving me anything to hope for. I feel like he is just going through the motions. I will reread this thread like you sugessted, especially Anne's post. Maybe it will pick me up. I usually have some humor, but I think it's lost.

Dear CV55 -

I've been lurking on your thread for awhile, and just read Nina's post to you.

I lurk because I can identify with the pain you're going through. My story is a long one, and I have been here for more two years - we've come a long way in that time. My H's affairs were not physical - he had two EAs, in quick succession, but the fallout was devastating. I'm only writing this, to let you know that our feelings are similar and I have had (still have sometimes) a lot of the same kind of anger against my H.

My H fell in love with a younger woman he came into contact with through work - basically he launched into his MLC with a bang. Although he saw her once a week through work, much of their "affair" was conducted via TXT msg and telephone, with the upshot that he fell in love, and his feelings for me died. It just so happened that he was conducting all of this during the time my brother was dying, and I confirmed my H's feelings for her just two days after I returned from my brother's funeral. I still find it hard to forgive him for that, but I am working on it.

Finding out was hard - the aftermath was harder - I accidentally got pregnant, and ended up having an incomplete miscarriage, eventually a D&C. The following week, our SIL (H's brother's wife) committed suicide. That was a horrible shock for the whole family, but I thought EA was over and that H now appreciated having a wife who loved him. Two months later, I found his e-mails to OW2 - apparently, as soon as affair no. 1 was exposed, he started making friends with girl no. 2. Well, yours truly hit the roof (and him) - we ended up in a fight and he now has a nice little scar over his right eyebrow (something I'm not proud of).

How do you come back together from being so low? For us, it has been a long, hard road - I have had an enormous amount of help from this forum, from stillseeking in particular, to whom I will always be extraordinarily grateful, who helped me see my H more honestly.

Today, I am glad I have made the effort - we still have problems, and there is still stuff that needs to be worked on, but we are still together, and our kids are a lot happier at this point.

I still have a hard time understanding why my H behaved the way he did, especially when my brother was dying, and during the time afterwards, when I needed him most. The answer is that he was like a man addicted - my H longs for Admiration, and he was getting Admiration by the bucketload from these two EA's - he was like a man being sucked down the drain by his need for Admiration. I was obviously not filling this need well enough for him, and I realized that.

When I was at my angriest, and even today, I still need to remind myself to do this - I told myself, the ONLY, and I mean, ONLY way I can go on living with this man (who might as well be a stranger to me for all I care at this point), is to look for ONE good thing about him every day, and then compliment him on it. Just one good thing. And that became my mantra. Just one good thing. It was an act of pure will because I certainly didn't FEEL like telling him, even if I saw it. But I did it anyway. "I think it's great that you fixed YS bicycle - thank you for doing that." "I've always admired how hard you work at a project". "You've always been good at X..." More than anything , this is what rebuilt our R - H felt terrible about himself, but began to realize I still saw some good in him. And I even made MYSELF feel better - I realized I still saw some good in him, because there WAS still good in him. Yes, he had behaved like first class SH**, but that didn't mean he WAS a first-class SH**. He was a man who had his brains scrambled in a few important locations - he needed reprogramming, basically.

So - I can understand if you do give up, but try this before you do - then you can consider giving up.

Hope this helps. I really feel for you.
LIR

P.S. Don't expect your H to come out of withdrawal and for his feelings to return for quite awhile. My H's feelings for me returned gradually - but now, my H expresses his love for me every day - he is kind, thoughtful and affectionate. I know its painful, but my H said all the same things - I am only staying for the sake of the children - my feelings for you have withered - its nothing to do with her - fog, fog, fog - now I know how true that is. I don't think he can believe that he once felt that way about me. Take heart CV55. Don't expect big miracles to happen - make your own small ones (the things you don't think you can do) and you WILL get through this.

<small>[ March 26, 2004, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Thanks L-I-R! When I read the part you wrote about your brother dying I just started balling again. I feel like I am suppressing all of my pain over how he treated me during that time of my dad's death. When H talks about my dad, and how he didn't grieve his death, I want to cringe. I realize I haven't been able to grieve D's death because of the hell H brought into our lives.

The shrink told H yesterday something concerning admiration. He told H that he also needs to be honest about the things he's done that don't deserve to be admired. I think he was trying to point out the difference between true admiration and false admiration.

OMG, I am so confused and sad today. I really felt more hopeful at the beginning of this whole A being revealed. Now I feel like a hamster in a cage , running non-stop on one of those wheels. Running in place but getting nowhere.

It is difficult for me to admire him right now. I am showering his top need, affection. I will try to follow your advice to admire him once a day.

Thanks so much for jumping in here. I honestly don't know what I'd do without all of you. It has been the one blessing in all of this!