Thanks KiwiJ and Lisa! It is good to hear from the FWSs. It gives me some hope. Although, as I just wrote recently, Harley seems to think it's extra bad for a man who had an EA/PA. I hope he's wrong.

I am either amazingly strong or incredibly stupid. I haven't quite figured that one out yet. Actually at first I thought I was strong, now I'm definitely leaning towards stupid. If we make it through this I guess I'll go back to strong.

H appreciates my strength and has told me so. he can't believe I'm sticking with him. There has been a lot of As we have had to deal with. Not our own, but mostly in Hs family. I think it's what ultimately made this more acceptable for him to finally do. I always hated them and expressed it to him. We both were turned off by the As. So for him to have done this to me is amazing. He never thought I'd stay and neither did I. I guess most of us BSs thought that way. Whether H thinks he is lucky is another story. When the A was 1st revealed and it seemed he might lose me, he told me one night the line from the Joni Mitchell song kept running through his mind constantly. "You don't know what you've got till it's gone." Now I think that line is probably applying more to OW than me.

It isn't like H is talking about his withdrawal constantly. Of course when he wakes up panicking and crying, and I ask him, I get my answer. As I've said before, it's no wonder. They were together 75% more than he and I, plus having sex. Why the heck wouldn't he miss her? He goes to work now, where she was with him for 5 yrs., and she's not there. Plus it's the scene of all their extra activities.

H told me he told OW that her marriage was bad, but we didn't have a bad M. Well, he really messed us up. It's so hard to even imagine feeling love again, especially him for me. I will read the threads you recommended. Do I just look up your names? Also, how did you approach recovery. What steps did you both take to heal with your Ss? Any info would be appreciated.

Lisa, I wish H would come to MB, but he obviously is not ready. He really has no support, which I think makes it more tempting to call OW, and even just obsess about her. Thanks again! CV

CV....how long did the A actually last?

Hi CV and hi Lisa. We follow each other around a lot don't we LOL You know you said in one of your posts "Everything is blooming in Georgia right now." and it just sounded so lovely and so poetic. Well, that's an opinion from a girl from "Down Under".

Yes, CV, if you click on our names and take yourself to "review posts" you'll get our stories.

You know you mentioned deaths. In the year prior to my A my father died, then 6 months later my MIl and then 6 months after that my FIL. I think this had a HUGE bearing on the fact I had an A. I had also always hated cheaters, never thought it would happen to me in a million years.

Without going through my story again LOL it took a lot of love and patience on my H's side and a "reasonable" amount of commitment on my side at the beginning. Because after D'day that is all my H had from me.

And no you are not stupid, you are strong, and I admire you for it and so should your H.

Lisa, soon, instead of chasing each other round the boards I'll send you a proper post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm so concerned about your H's health issues. Saying that, I have absolutely NO experience of Diabetes.

Jenny

Lisa, I've just realised the irony of what I said about Georgia blooming. You've just been talking on another post about allergy problems. Not very poetic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jenny

<small>[ March 27, 2004, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

kiwiJ...very clever <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> !! It is absolutely beautiful here in the spring but miserable for allergy sufferers. I never had this problem until we moved back to Georgia from Utah!! How is Australia this time of the year?

CV55..one thing to remember..this obsession that your H has is all about the fog that an A brings about in one's mind. The A is a total fantasy and a way of escape from life's mundane problems. Your H may think that to give up OW is the hardest thing that he has had to face...He is so wrong...the worst thing that could happen to him is to lose you!!! This OP is just a drug to him that he is having to withdraw from...when he is past the point of withdrawal from this fantasy world you will have your H back and hopefully he will give back to you all that you are giving to him now....multiplied!!!!

So, so true Lisa. Do you know, looking back I don't think I could STAND to live with OM. Gosh, I never thought I'd say that!!!

By the way, I really hate to say this but Down Under also means New Zealand, not far from Australia (3 hours by plane) and we look on them as you look on Canadians. Sort of cousins that we love to beat in sport! We call ourselves Kiwis after a native bird, not a fuzzy little fruit. LOL All those funny accents at the Oscars were New Zealanders (Lord of the Rings). JL has actually been here!!!! It is a beautiful country and we have a LOT of American tourists here.

Sorry, CV, I do this a lot, total digression, but I actually think that is what makes this board such a nice and friendly place.

Jenny

Ladies, thanks! Reading your posts this morning brought tears to my eyes. Especially the part about H would feel sorry about losing me, as apposed to OW. As I've written on here lately, I think Hs fog is contagious. I think a part of me wonders if this "deep love" for her is possibly real, and not fog. Maybe we didn't have that great of an M. I know that I supported him a lot more during difficult times than he did me. The last year is a case in point. Maybe H just never really loved me and that's why he couldn't really give in our M. Maybe with OW he would be different. That's my MAYBE fog talk.

H and OW worked together for 5 yrs., and I think the EA began last April, definitely by May. IF he's telling me the truth, the PA started around July. He says they averaged sex once a week, but I think it was more. He was trying to spare my feelings. Just an intuition thing on my part. His business is very small. Helping him there lately really allowed me to see the alone time they had together. It amazes me that it wasn't until he called me from work on a Sunday in January to tell me they were working together, which they were, that it was the 1st time I REALLY thought, "They could be screwing their brains out and I'd never know." That was right before the A began to be revealed.

OW met all his needs. She was one of the best office managers he ever had. Made his work life so pleasant. His dad's death will be one year tomorrow. The shrinks keep telling him the significance of that. I wrote in my journal that night how we held each other, made love, and he told me he loved. Within a month or two he is having an A. I couldn't be there for him because my dad was in such bad shape. OW was right there. Having trouble in her M, and turned right to him.

So that's my story. We slept through most of last night. H woke up at 5 or 6 doing his grief thing. I asked him if he wanted to talk and he said know. We held each other and I tried to comfort him. I went to the bathroom anf just realized how hard this is for me. When I went back to bed I cried. He knew it but didn't ask me why. MY thoughts were and are the following. I am totally grief stricken. My H totally replaced in every way with OW, and now he's grieving that loss. While I'm left grieving our M, our family life, how he wasn't there for me this whole past year, how he took sex (one of my top ENs) away from me and gave it to her. ON and on and on I could go. Yet I have to watch him grieve this manipulative little "B" that didn't give one thought to me our our children. Thought H was selfish because he didn't "pick" her. And the H can't even see it.

At some point I need to be comforted by him. Really comforted. And I'm just wondering if that day is ever going to come. He's here, whether he's committed is another story. I'm just not feeling the investment yet. Maybe that's the withdrawal.

Any further thoughts let me have them. Thanks! CV

CV...It will hit him one day...trust me! When it does, you will be there to then encourage him to forgive himself for what he has done to you and the pain that he has caused you!! The one thing about the WS is that it makes the person completely self absorbed about themself!!! I have never been a selfish person until the A happened, I always put myself and my feelings last. I never knew that I was capable of such selfishness as I was during the A and through the withdrawal period...It was all about me and what I was feeling. I didn't voice this to my H but I proved it by my actions time and time again.

When it did finally hit me and the fog was gone, I can't begin to tell you the guilt and remorse that I felt. You hang in there!!!

Lisa, I really appreciate your encouragement along with the other MBers here. I just don't know how you all seem to KNOW that H will come around. That this fog will miraculously lift, and we will somehow really have a true M back. That he will realize how much he loves me, and not her. Let's face it, how many people leave their Ms for the OP? Without sounding too paranoid, I sometimes wonder if time apart from her will just add legitimacy to their relationship if they get back together. You know, "I didn't leave my wife because of the A. We just couldn't work our problems out. It had NOTHING to do with the OW."
How many times does that happen?

We went to church together this morning. It's been awhile since we've gone together. The readings were making me sad. First it was about leaving our sinful pasts, or that which separates us from God, behind. It went on to say we then have to focus on the future and making a better life there. The Gospel was about the woman who was caught in the act of adultery and brought to Jesus. She was going to be stoned and the high priests asked Jesus what he would do. He said, "Those among you who haven't sinned cast the 1st stone." They all left and then he told her to sin no more.

I could have cried in church hearing these readings. I have no idea what H was feeling. Honestly, what I am about to say is not meant to hurt any WSs. However, until today I really didn't use the word adulterer to refer to H. Sitting in church with him today, hearing this gospel story, it hit me. My H is an adulterer. I know, I'm a little slow. That word is so ugly to me. Oh SH%%, I'm crying again. I can't seem to wrap my brain around any of this. It's a beautiful day here, like the day it was during my Dad's wake. I looked out onto our patio after church and suddenly I thought of OW sitting out there during the meal in-between visiting hours at the funeral home. I'm thinking how I'm sure I hugged her hello and sat with her and talked. Welcomed her into my home to be with my family. OK, now I'm balling. How did H allow the woman he was screwing come to our home during such a significant event? And why can't he see what a friggin jerk she is to have come over? That's gotta take balls, or she really must have felt that SHE deserved to be there with H.

OMG, will I ever not have the need to vent on here? Maybe if the day comes that I know H is really committed, tells me he loves ME, and is really ready to help me heal. That's a tall order. Can't picture that happening. I have so much pain around my dad's death, if we stay together he's got to help me with this. Did any of you WSs do anything that crappy? How do you explain it? I'm really trying to understand, not condemn. Could my H have loved me so little he didn't even think about her being around me at that time? I guess I'm trying to understand something that I just can't grasp. How hard would it have been to just tell OW not to be involved with anything concerning my dad's death.

OK, I'll stop. I'm just going in circles. H and I have talked about this. He now says he was so stupid. It's just not enough for me. Maybe if he ever is out of this fog we can deal with this one day. Thanks for letting me rant! CV

Thanks Jazzey! I'm sorry for your loss and that your H was at least as big of a JackA%% as mine was.

H and I just talked for a long time. I was trying to help him get a password here, but we were interrupted. He is afraid to post because I might read his posts. I keep telling him I DON'T want to hear how much he LOVES OW. Plus I'm not ready to have him read my posts. Anyway, we'll see if he comes here for support.

During this conversation I shared my grief over some of his actions, such as having OW come here. He takes full resonsibility, but does not want to sully her in any way. He admitted to me that he is afraid to let go of his feelings for her because he wonders if they are the real thing, and not a fantasy. I really tried to stay focused and pointed out the following. She was married for 7 yrs., having trouble in her M, and got right involved with H. Did he really think THAT was healthy? Meanwhile we had the year from hell, I couldn't support him, and she is meeting his top needs, especially admiration. Does he think 2 yrs. down the road, when they aren't in stage one, it will be that natural for her to meet that need? In stage one it's easy to meet those needs. He is very worried about our sex life. He has rewritten history like we never had a good one. Again, tried to point out all the sexual dysfunction he had which screwed us up. Then he gets straightened out, is in the excitement of an A, and voila, a great sex life. I pointed out that he was her boss, making her feel so special. She just graduated from college and he was offering her this great career. His ex-partner told me to OW H is rich. So here she is, bankrupt from her D and with the boss. Meanwhile me, the lowly W, is not even in Hs consciousness. She's that much more special. I could go on and on about his fog. Pretty soon he's going to have me believing we had kids due to my immaculate conception.

I told him he's early into withdrawal due to the degree of intimacy they had. That I'm trying to be patient, but he is going to have to try and dismantle the fantasy. He totally replaced me with her in every way. If he would have been giving me half the attention maybe we would have had a shot. Now he thinks she's the love of his life.

This is so hard. I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall. He has her on such a pedestal he feels like he can NEVER find another employee as good as her. I'm so sick of this crap talk. I hope you all know what you're talking about. I told him when WE start meeting each other's needs we'll get the love back. He doesn't believe that can happen, or is afraid it won't. Meanwhile I'm walking the walk, but not necessarily believing the talk. I feel like he does. Wonder if he can't get over his feelings for her, and find love with me again? This is too frustrating! CV

CV: I was not going to post anymore on this site, but I read such pain in your words. I am a FWS; I had a 7year, 5mo affair with an OW. The withdrawal that I went through almost got the best of me. I did not think the pain was ever going to end. I truly did not want to live anymore. This stills sounds weird saying, as I was an atheist. God saved me that cold December morning. I am now in my fourth month of NC. I still have my moments of missing the OW, but they are far and few between. My wife and I are doing awesome, we have had our moments, but all in all we are on the right road of recovery. My break through was really only a couple weeks back. While posting here I came to the realization that if I were single when I met the OW I would have never stayed as long I did with her. I don’t want to say too much here about OW or I will be accused of pinning over her. I know this sucks for you, but know that one day your husband will wake up and he will want to spend the rest of his life giving you the marriage and life you deserve. It truly happens that quickly. What help me was reading everything I could on the subject, individual counseling and most important a relationship with God. I think it was Lisa who told you about the post “letting go of OM”. I think on page 12 I left my post where I posted some excerpts from a book that I read. It talks about “addiction and withdrawal” Sorry but I deleted all of my other posts. Hope this helps somewhat. Warmest regards, Chris

<small>[ March 28, 2004, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

CV, I was thinking about this last night again.

You know when you first go into withdrawal you think "This is so unique, it proves how much I loved OP and how we were true soulmates etc." Yes, I know where's the "throw up" graemlin when you need it. LOL

What changed my thinking was coming here and realising that EVERY WS goes into this sort of thinking. People who've had A's lasting a week and people who've had A's lasting years.

All I can say is my H has shown me what real, unconditional, mature love is.

The other thing:
NC, NC, NC, NC, NC, NC, NC.

Jenny

Chris, I'm glad you didn't leave this site, and I hope you don't. Hearing from a FWH means a lot to me.

H and I ended up going out to lunch, and once again we ended up talking about OW. Actually before today we haven't talked much about the A. At least not every day. Except OW is always with us given how apparent his withdrawal is. Driving to the restaurant he actually was trying to put her in a better light and said she questioned whether she should come to our house after my D's wake. He said he encouraged her to come. THAT of course made me feel great! I hade to fight from telling him to just take me home. I did say she could have still not come. Later I asked him if he can see how fogged out he was to even do that?
I told him how all you MB friends are encouraging me like crazy to stick this out. That you all feel like we have a shot at recovery. He wanted to know why, and I said I keep asking them that question, but haven't really gotten any good answers. I guess I blew that one. I did say that maybe you all think we can get through this because we're talking, we hold each other, and he's sharing his feelings with me. Is that it?

He really associates me with his dad and feels like my love is so conditional. I think most of this is projection on his part, but needs to be explored. I told him all the times I stuck with him through some really dark times, especially now, has nothing to do with conditional love. He told me he doesn't understand it. I asked him if he was sure OW would be there for him in this kind of way?

I asked him if they shared common interests. He didn't seem to know. I said it seemed like they enjoyed drinking together because of the visa bills I was looking at. He told me there was one thing, and then he didn't want to tell me. I told him if it was about sex he didn't have tell me. Finally, after saying something like I'll probably take what he says, rewrap it, and give it back to him, that they are very compatible. I just looked at him, like Yeh? He said way before the A he, ex-partner and OW took a personality test. Her results and his said they were the PERFECT match for employee/employer. Again I'm looking at him like, soooo? It makes even more sense of this A to me. She was the perfect employee. Really took care of him, unfortunately in many more ways than the job description required. I may have suggested to him that just because they were compatible at work doesn't mean they would be compatible in life.

He wanted to be alone and went to the park, which is something he always used to do to clear his head. He called me a short time ago and I told him about your post Chris. How you had a 5 yr. A and came through the withdrawal. His immediate response was, "Well, it's probably because his A was so long." In other words your A had died a natural death. I told him you said you had a terrible withdrawal and were suicidal. Then he listened. I think he still wants to believe that what they had was so different fom other WSs As and special. He did tell me on the phone he took a step to start letting OW out of his heart. I have no idea what that means, but I'll take whatever I can get.

I REALLY apologize for all the blabbing I'm doing. It's writing to all of you that's helping me survive this. How many times have I written THAT? I'm sure some knew thing will come up tonight that will have me venting again. So if H does end up posting on here do you all think it's better if you don't know he's my H? Wonder if he's writing how he really wants to dump me, and then you all have to talk to me like you have no idea. Sounds complicated. Should I tell him to go find his own support site? Just kidding, although if he posts I hope it doesn't ruin it for me.

Remember Chris, DON'T GO AWAY! This is your opportunity to keep helping screwed up people like me, and maybe H. Take Care! CV

CV, I had a feeling that's what H was feeling. "This is so unique, it's so much more than those other WS's had." Facing the reality that it WASN'T any more unique than anyone else's A is one of the hardest parts of withdrawal.

With NC things become so much clearer, I think that's why we think you'll make it.

Keep plugging away, we're here with you.

Jenny

CV: Kiwi is so on target with this one. I will second every thing she wrote. We all thought are A's were the real deal, something soooo special. A word of caution: you may not want to push him too hard on the fact that his relationship was nothing special. I think most of us came to that realization on our own with a little help. I would encourage him to come here and start posting. Did you print a copy of Truehearts's letter and give it to your H? That may be a good start for him. Chris

PS Thanks for your kind words.

I agree with Chris. If you tell him that his A was nothing special he's sure to go on the defence and start defending her and the A.

Unfortunately, it takes time to come around to facing all this. You are doing well even understanding he is in withdrawal. As Lisa said we brought it here rather than putting it on to our spouses. I don't know if that's a "woman" thing. Chris would disagree LOL but he does seem to be the exception. From reading other posts, the WH doesn't seem to mind saying some pretty hurtful things to their W.

With luck, it will come to him on his own - or if he starts reading here.

Jenny

CV: I just read one of your posts about your H’s dad dying. This struck me. My affair started 6 Weeks before my mom died. I never grieved for her, as I was on such a high of the affair, you know I had met my soul mate and all, bla bla bla. I am a very strong-minded person. I had such a hard time understanding why and how the OW got her hooks into me so deeply. Through therapy I have come up with some compelling and enlightening answers. One of them was when OW “dumped” me; some of the grief that I buried deep inside me for my mom actually intensified the feeling of loss. I know that sounds like psychobabble, but it kind of makes a little sense. I don’t want to sound like I am making excuses for the affair or why I had such a hard time letting go of OW. I have and I am continuing to learn more about myself, using this most hurtful experience for everyone involved to become a loving devoted husband, a great father and a better person in all aspects of my life.
The reason I think you are going to make it through this mess is YOU. You have showed incredible strength and you are willing to fight for your H. He had all those wonderful feelings that he has for the OW with you. He married you. He has all the good memories of you; those memories are buried in the fog. I actually told my wife that I had never loved her the way I loved the OW. In retrospect, I wish I could take that one back. I look at it now and realize the OW did not hold a candle to my wife, in any area, looks, personality and the big one character.

Jenny, you make me feel like one of the girls <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Chris

Thanks Kiwi and Chris! H just came home and is a wreck. The first thing he said was, "Don't tell me what anyone from the SITE said. And I don't want to here about any books. I just want you to hear what I have to say." I held him and he told me what a terrible person he is. He can't believe he did this. The withdrawal is terrible. Why would I want to stay with him. Now that he's had an A maybe he'll do it again. He wonders if it would be better if he left for a while to clear his mind. At that I said, "if you leave then this A is out to everyone. And you know if you leave you'll start going out with OW. That is not going to clear your confusion." I think he wishes that I wasn't sticking with him. He actually said if I kicked him out the decision would be made, even if it wasn't a good one.

At one point I did mention the site for support and he got pissed off. Again, didn't want to hear about this site. I calmed him down and just told him he needs support. He can keep all this crap inside of him and make the withdrawal that much more difficult, or he can do certain things to help himself. He acknowledged what is so difficult is going to work. I acknowledged that's because everything involving her was at work. Work was home for him. He agrees with me that he made her is wife. Now work is just a reminder of her not being there, and how screwed up his life is now.

I hope he doesn't contact her. This is scary because he really seems worse as time goes on. He is really "F"ed up. Truthfully I don't know what to do for him. I had copied Thrueheart's letter but was afraid to give it to him now. Hopefully he will be open to it later.

Anymore advice from anybody out there? H said he doesn't know how to detach from her, and he's had NC. Are you sure this is normal? Chris, you're probably right. I need to refrain from the talk about their "very special relationship." I hope one day if we get through this he will see if for what it is. He does acknowledge that his dad's death was a catalyst, and so was my dad's sickness. In his mind I loved my dad more than him and I abandoned him. I can actually say the poor pathetic H was so needy.

Well, here's some news I just got from H. He called me from work totally upset. He said he feels like such a terrible person. He asked me to ask him any question. I told him if he needs to tell me something to help him, go ahead. Then he admitted to me he has called OW. I was actually shocked because he has denied contact. The amnesia set in and he couldn't remember when, or if it was one or two times. Suddenly his memory came back and he said he's called her every couple of days for the last 10 days. He said there was no talk of them getting together, and she hasn't called him. I said, "No wonder you're having such a terrible time with this withdrawal." He told me he feels so addicted and he doesn't know what to do. I told him he HAS TO POST HERE. He said he's going to tonight. He wants to repair our marriage, he claims, but doesn't know how to get her out of his head. I hope you all can knock some major sense into his head.

Well, I'm back to feeling like an idiot again. Why would I trust that this man has had NC who cheated on me for months? He has looked me in the eye and said I want to call her all the time, which I thought was being very honest. He just neglected telling me he was calling her all the time. I'm actually chuckling. What is wrong with me? Say a prayer for this oh so messed up H of mine. And for me that I don't strangle him during the night and end up in the state pen. CV