Chris, I just read your last post. It's interesting how the theme of death seems to surround these As. I wonder for men in particular if it's a way to avoid feeling the grief feelings. Our MC told H that. He said some people will get into risky sports, like mountain climbing, for the high to avoid the grief. He said an A serves the same purpose.

Hs memory of marrying me might not be so great. I have a feeling it is one of his unresolved issues with me. I'll explain. We went out for 8 yrs. I was not what you'd call the stereotypical woman who fantasizes about her wedding or getting married. H wanted to marry me after a couple of yrs. I held off for 8yrs. Marriage scared me to death. I'm thinking now maybe I had a right to be scared. We lived together for 5 yrs. During the last year I finally said I'd marry him and then I couldn't tell my dad. Anyway, I went on a vacation and when he picked me up at the airport he told me he moved out. I deserved it because I couldn't commit. I thought it was over and felt terrible. Somehow he kept up contact and we got together again. This time I knew I had to overcome my fear of marriage. So we got married. Had a great time. I actually picked a round church so I wouldn't have to walk down a long aisle. Yes, I'm weird. H has had to put up with me too. We had a fantastic honeymoon, and then he got really weird that 1st year. He finally had me, but was REALLY angry about waiting around for so long. I think because of this he has always doubted my love for him. After the A came out and I was so good to him he said he never knew I really loved him until now. I guess I'm saying we have some real excess baggage.

He posted on here tonight. I hope you all can help him. I'm glad he told me he called her. I'm hoping that's all he did. You all will know more than me because I'm not reading his posts. I am also really pissed off at him. Here I am writing my friggin brains out. Crying every other day. Wondering why this recovery is so bad. And he's calling her every other day. She's probably just biding her time, waiting for him to hire her back, and reenter her life. She's following very good MB principles actually.

Oh Great!!! Chris, it's nice that you say it's because of me we might work it out. It takes two, and I don't think I have it in me to wait around for him while he sees OW. I hope he doesn't or hasn't gone there yet. Oh this really sucks! CV

ps, I think I'm going to change my name from CV55 to The Queen of Chumps. Cause I REALLLLLY feel like a chump now.

CV: I’m no expert at this and I am not telling you what to do. However, for me my wife was an enabler. I always knew she would be there for me, she never question anything I did. I took full advantage of her willingness to give me free rein. (Cake eater) I tell you this because we did not have the marriage builder’s principles during my Affair. If she would of planned B’d my [censored], I would of run back to her so fast. Kind of like dadto3boys did. The thought of my wife with another man, that man in my 2 daughters life, that man in my house, in my bed. F*** that! Yep, I wish my wife had helped in that way, because I can guarantee I would of never stayed with the OW for 7 years. The old saying you don’t know what you have until it’s gone, how true it is. So put out the feelers and see what others think, this is just mho. Chris

Hi CV55,

I'm glad your H is posting!

I wish I knew how to make a link, but here is the address for the page on this site where Dr. Harley explains Plan A and Plan B. You may have already read it. You can copy and paste the following into your browser bar (address bar) to get there:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

In any case, I wanted you to know that I'm thinking about you. Sundays are slow on MB.

This has been h*ll for you, I know, but you have been doing very well. I believe you did the right thing by telling your H you would expose the A if he moved out, and that you knew he would get back with OW if he left.

If I had moved out at the beginning of withdrawal, I know I would have contacted FOM.

I'm sorry your H broke NC; that hurt both of you (set him back in withdrawal and he betrayed you again), but I'm glad he told you.

It doesn't seem like much of a consolation, I'm sure, but he could have kept it a secret, continued contact with her, and been what is called a cake eater! I broke NC early on in withdrawal, as well, but was desperate to change and get my life back on track.

There have been times since then that guilt and feeling terrible about myself made me want to move out (but not contact FOM), thinking it would be better for my H to be free of me and the bad memories. So, sometimes your H's feelings of guilt could cause him to want to leave, and it won't always necessarily be about wanting to be with OW.

A few days ago, my H finally asked me to stop asking him if he wants a D. He doesn't want a D, but I have been asking him out of insecurtiy. At this point, I'm ready to finally stop considering a D as a necessity or even a possibility.

I mention this to try to help encourage you that people really can change, the fog can lift, M's can be rebuilt. Both S's have to be willing to work on it, and your H has been making an effort. I'll keep praying for you both.

Rose55

It looks like the http address automatically became a link. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

CV, I did not have time to read thru your entire thread, but I am going to ask my H to stop by and see if he can help you with some of what is going on here with your H...My H is still coming out of Fogland, but I dont think he is necessarily as deep in it as yours is still. Of course, my H is only in day 2 of withdrawal and maybe it hasn't HIT him yet.

We did have a nice chat tonight in which case he told me that OW may pursue him and try to get him to have a "secret" affair again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> He was completely honest with me, and I appreciate that, when he said he was very vulnerable right now and if she were to approach him, he might fold.

NO CONTACT MEANS JUST THAT! That said...I will see if my H will stop by your thread and try to help you out a bit. Hang in there! I might be in YOUR shoes in a week! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

OOOPS...Um that last post was supposed to be from mom! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Well here I am again. I knew I'd be back. There's always something new and exciting in this road to recovery.

When I went to bed I told H I'm going to need to talk to him to get the details of those phone conversations. He said fine, but he didn't want to talk now. I agreed, then I thought "Screw that." I told him I've been getting up in the middle of the night to comfort him for days on end. I need to talk to him NOW or I won't be able to sleep. So he agreed. There was no arguing with that!

Well, the truth. So illusive for people who have or are having As. This is what I discovered. The TRUTH started out on the phone conversation we had earlier, that he had a few calls with her, and didn't talk long. Then it turned into he's called her about every other day for the past 2 weeks or so. At my questioning I then found out he has seen her. Within the last week, he can't remember the day, he called her and asked her to come to the funeral home. Sorry I LBed. Not major. Well, actually I think I may have said "F you." I possibly apologized for that blunder, because God knows, I don't want his love bank depleted. I said, "You had her come to the funeral home where you were doing all that screwing. Oh Great!." He then changed it to they met in the planning center, which is a much less homey building next door. I'm going to have to further check that detail at a later date.

So why did he ask her there? According to H he never got to say a proper goodbye on her last day, because as some of you know, I paid her a little visit that day. Poor little thing was soooo upset she left without giving H a real goodbye. He CLAIMS at this last meeting nothing happened. It was only a 15 minute conversation. OK, I'm hearing you all laughing right now, as I am. He said he told her it has to be over. So I asked him if they screwed while she was there. An emphatic NO. Did anything take place that was physical. Finally he said they hugged goodbye. Me: Were there any Kisses? H: NO.

The story's not over. My interrogation moved to the phone calls. So what did you talk about? The memory was really faltering here. The eyes were getting that blank, dead look. OK H, you've been thinking about her constantly and yet you don't remember what you talked about. Did you two exchange any "I love you's?" Well, miracle of miracles, he told the truth. They did express there love, but nothing else. No plans to get back together. And OW has not called him. SH$$, she doesn't have to.

Chris, as far as me being an enabler, I thought my H had NC. He has been honest about just enough of his feelings that I thought he was really being tempted. I had no clue he gave in. I have asked him often if he's called her, or was he thinking of calling her. This might have been an LB, but I told him point blank this lying has to stop. I don't know who he is anymore. He has become a lyer and I can't believe a word he says anymore. He told me I know he's not a lyer, and he never used to lie before this A. I replied, "Well your lying nonstop now, and I can't take it anymore. I'm one of the most honest people on the planet and I can't be with a lier." I told him we have to do the radical honesty now, or forget it. I asked him why he keeps lying to me? Truthfully, this man was never a lier.

I am beyond angry. I'm glad he told me the truth, or at least his version of the truth, but this is Bull####. I'm looking at this pathetic man who can't tell the truth and don't even like him. I'm telling you my little love bank is running on empty right now.

He said he turned a corner today and knows he wants to work on the marriage. Blah, blah, blah. I guess it's something that he's talking to all of you now. I was bummed because he was on the computer so long I couldn't talk to you guys. I just told him his lies keep setting me back. I said I will want him to send her a NC letter. He got very defensive and said, "I don't like when you put demands on me. You better talk to your MB friends and get their opinion." I might have to write a separate post about that. This is what I said to H. "For about 10 months you have been holding ALL the cards. I'm tired of it. The messages you are sending OW are that you don't want to work on our M, you want to be with her." Hs reply," No, I told her I'm working on the M." My reply, "H GET OUT OF THE FOG!!!! You're telling this woman over the phone that you love her, and she's telling you. Do you not get the mixed message there?" Again, those dead eyes looking at me. I think my next move will be to call on an exorcist to get the evil spirits out of him. I informed him that he protected the poor thing against me, the evil wife, when I talked to her. HIs words that day, "You're not being fair to OW CV." Now he's met with her for the final goodbye, hugged her (for all I know), and is calling her and expressing love. Yeh, I think OW might need a NC letter. What do you all think?

On one positive note he actually told me he now does think he and OW are just a fantasy. He said he got tired of me telling him that. Made him dig in even more. Our MC, his IC, his sister have all told him that. So finally he contacted his former therapist, not known to me. This guy told him it was an illusion, and if he ends up with her, he'll be seeing him in a couple of years. H claims that is what began turning him around. That and telling me the truth today. Sorry, I'm not that excited by any of this at the moment. Right now H is looking a bit loserish to me.

Sorry once again for my long vent. Maybe I can sleep. H is sleeping like a little baby. It's such a relief to unburden your sins, isn't it? Anybody know the number of Quito the hit man? I think I might have a little job for him soon.

This can't be my life. I swear we are all on an episode of the Twilight Zone. Rod Serling is going to walk out any second and tell us what is going on in this strange foggy place we are all in. Except maybe you recovered folks managed to escape the Twilight Zone. I'm going to bed, but sleep, who knows? Thanks Cris, Rose, and Mom for your replies. Mom, hopefully your H will do better with the NC. CV

I have been confiding in a friend at work and she has really given me some great advice. One thing she said is that the WS must choose you, you can't make them do it, it must be a CHOICE. Yes, you can do the good things listed in Plan A, and those are important, but go on ladies nite out, let him feel what it is like w/o you. You cannot smother him (this is the part I do terrible at). Also, let him know that you want him back, but not at any price, he has to want you too.

Also, it will take time. One of my favorite sayings is "This too shall pass." This is a phrase that my W and I have repeated to each other over and over.

Thanks Betrayed Man. Yesterday and today I actually got into the "It's your choice" talk. During one of our many conversations yesterday, before I knew the extent of the calls, I actually said to him something like, "If you want to leave, go." I can't quite remember what led me to that comment. He just stared at me and said, "Do you mean that?" I think he was a bit shocked and indicated he didn't want to leave. Then this morning, after he reached out for us to hold each other, he told me he is afraid of the work it's going to take to recover. I said, "So do you not want to do it?" Again I felt his surprise. After a long silence he said he does want to do the work. I just posted on the recovery board that he said it's not just our boys he's staying for, he realizes it's our whole family. The four of us together.

Once again he got me up at 3;30 in the morning, but this time it wasn't really about his grief over OW. It was more about his grief over the person he has become. He feels like he is a terrible person and can't understand how he could have had an A and caused so much pain. We ended up talking about OW and for the 1st time I saw him begin to see her in a non-fantasy light. Kiwi, I think it was you who said how hard it is for the WS to admit how unspecial the fantasy A was. H told me exactly that last night. He said he hoped the fantasy was real and would last. He claims he didn't think they would be problem free, but THEY would be able to work through any difficulties much better than we ever did.

He told me some things about OW that now bother him. He said before the EA turned into a PA he would talk to her about not wanting it to progress because it was wrong. OWs response was, "I respect what you're telling me, but I am here for you." However her actions never supported him ending the A. H talked to her about how it bothered him because he felt like I did not support him in the business. I love what OW said to that. "CV has such a great life. It's too bad she doesn't appreciate what she has with you." I actually laughed at that one and said, "Wow, she was good." H didn't understand the manipulation there. I explained to him that she was once again stroking his ego, basically calling me an ingrate (who she doesn't even know), and letting him know if she was the W she would appreciate the GREAT life she had with him. He then got it and told me how she was soooo eager to help him in any way concerning the business. What else? It bothered him that even though she is really into her immediate family, it never seemed to bother her that our family would be broken up. When he would express his concern over that she would just be silent.

He told me that he realizes that she is not the person he wants to be with. He wants to be with me, a person who has true character. My problem this morning is I don't know if I want to be with him. His lies really set me back. In bed some of my pain and anger over my dad's dying and death came out also. When he told me he loved my dad and never grieved his death I wanted to explode. I couldn't help it. I told him he knew my dad for 26 yrs., and when he was dying he abandoned both him and me. He was too busy having fun Fing OW." I ended up saying we better not talk about that time now because it will be the hardest time period for me to forgive, if I can.

So that's the latest. He called me a short time ago and told me the following. One year ago today his dad died and he began dismantling our lives. It was a rainy, gloomy day then and H said it symbolized this past year. Today is a beautiful, sunny day and he hopes it is a symbol of the rebuilding of his business and his life in a good direction. I can only hope.

I hope you all can help him out. He feels coming to MB was a big step for him. He realizes how terribly addicted he is to OW, but wants to end contact. I hope he can, and told him I am weakening in my resolve and can't tolerate the lies. Once again thanks for hearing my story. CV

CV: First I did not mean that you were an enabler, Sorry if you took it that way. I was just trying to convey to you that Plan B might be the route to consider. If he experiences life with out you and sees you getting on with your life. I don’t think he will look at that as a positive experience. He may feel a great loss for you and I am sure a twinge of jealousy. All good things to help break the "fog". He has feelings for you or he would not be on this site. I’m sure when he is with her there is a part of him that wishes he was with you. I know that’s a small consolation prize, but I think it is a feeling that most WS’ feel. It is so frustrating for me to read his post; I wish I could reach through the screen a shake some sense into him. Save him from the pain, save you from the pain. Unfortunately he is going to have to make the choice on his time schedule. Even though all of the FWS’ here are united and writing in essence, that we all thought our OP was perfect and our soulmate and we did not see the op's faults. He won’t hear it until he is ready. Sad but true. The good thing he is here posting and reading, seeds have been planted and they will sprout in time. Hopefully they sprout before he loses you for good. Chris

Chris, thanks for your concern. Feel free to reach across that screen.

I realize I have to figure out how we can both post here. I am respecting his privacy and not reading his posts, just like I don't want him reading mine. However, the little you just told me about his post causes me to wonder if you all are in on more of his lies. Which frankly I can't tolerate now.

So I might have to tell him he needs to come clean about what he's sharing on here. If he doesn't then everything he tells me, like he did last night, will have no meaning to me.

I know he is trying to break a terrible addiction to OW. However, if he's telling me he wants me and our family, but he's telling all of you he's still deciding who he will choose, his posting ain't gonna work for me. He can find his own site. I told him yesterday and today it's got to be radical honesty now.

If you or any other MBers have thoughts about how we can both post here let me know. Thanks! CV

CV55,

Well maybe I've read some of your H's posts and maybe I haven't. Heck, I find it so hard to keep up with who is who that I think my brain would explode if I tried to remember who was married to whom.

That said... as I began reading your latest long post, where all the lies about the phone contact (and one in person contact) came to light, I was thinking PLAN B.

But then I read about the conversations you had and it does seem like he is beginning to open up to you. Plan B would be a harsh punishment for him reaching out and finally opening up about what must be a terribly embarrassing, painful, and difficult subject.

So.... in light of the fact that your reserves are SO low (overextended, perhaps), and in light of the fact that you have been doing what seems to be as good a Plan A as is humanly possible, and in light of the fact that his is stuck in fogville and lying, but also in light of the fact that he may actually be starting to wake up and come out of it all...

I'd say that if you can stand it, thank him for the conversations and his honesty, and stick with Plan A. I'd also lay down the law about radical honesty, let him know that further lies absolutely will NOT be tolerated. I'd have a Plan B letter in my pocket and be ready to act on it if ANY more lies are told.

The only reason I say hold off on Plan B is that he does seem to be opening up.

Oh no....Please don’t read anything into what I said, He is just deep in fogland. From your post I know you know that. I just want to help him along and give you insight into how long this may take. I’ve been where he is at, pretty much all of our WS’ have been there. There is hope for you two. I now love my wife with such a renewed passion and four short months ago I thought my life was over. Sorry I should of not made the reference to his post. My mistake. Chris

Th: Good post, you put that thought down perfect. Chris

Hey CV55,

It sounds to me like posting has already helped your H. He is thinking very deeply about what he's done, realized he wants YOU and your children, and reaching through the fog for YOU.

I read a book by a Christian writer, Beth Moore, last year and she described recovering from a really bad mistake as getting free from a cobweb but still having some of the sticky stuff on you.

As far as you and your H both posting here, I think you should give him some space so he can write and ask whatever questions he wants, even vent if he needs to. He'll get good advice here. He's working through his thoughts and feelings and it can be a sticky journey.

I journaled and wrote poems while I was getting through the worst of withdrawal, and my H would sometimes read what I wrote and get upset. It caused me to stop writing (which had really been helping me) because I knew that he didn't 100%understand what I was writing and he would jump to conclusions that would cause him unnecessary questions and pain.

It would set us back because he felt hopeless, I felt attacked, and I was confused enough without trying to explain what I had written. I was writing in order to work through the confusion.

There's a fine line between having the privacy to safely work through our thoughts and feelings (as WS's) and being radically honest with our S. That has been a conflict between my H and I, and I can see both sides.

For you and your H, right now, while emotions are so raw, I'm suggesting that you give each other privacy to write on MB site. Others might disagree with me, I'm sure, but that's just my opinion.

Hugs and Blessings, Rose55

TH, frankly I'm confused about Plan A or B. In Harley's SAA there are people in that book doing Plan A, living together, and the WS is having an active EA/PA. I think Harley says you can do that for 6 months. If I knew H was actively in the EA/PA for one day I doubt I could tolerate it. I believe he broke NC. I am bummed about it. I hate that he lied about it. Truthfully I don't know what that is about. I think he has a tremendous amount of shame. I hope he hasn't done more than what he told me. Unfortunately when people lie you can't believe anything. I have never had to face this before except with my kids lying about each other. So do I kick him out over breaking NC? I'm not making light of it, but both Harley and folks here have said that is common. Given the intensity of his A it doesn't surprise me the trouble he's having. I'm just at the point he now needs to help himself break apart from the fantasy, instead of holding onto it for dear life. I'm willing to put up with the withdrawal for a while, but he has to do his part. Plus I'm thinking about my boys. I don't want to kick him out if he can get through this without that drastic step. Hopefully I'll know my limit, and I'm not there yet.

Chris, don't feel badly. I'm glad you are sticking around here and helping us both out. Your support in one day has been invaluable. I just have to figure this out, us both posting.

Rose, you make a good point. I've been journaling for years and know how important it is to be totally honest. I have done that here and I don't want to stop that process for myself. I could see how H got into writing here yesterday. He was really into it. He really has had no support. Maybe one of the draws to calling OW. So either I need to leave this site for a while and give him free reign, be able to tolerate the fact that he might be telling you all and me different realities, or tell him I won't read his posts but he can't talk to you all about things he hasn't been radically honest with me about. I think I will feel like a chump once again if that happens.

If anybody has ideas please let me know. Thanks!

Cv- I don't think you should stop posting here all . Belive me you need this , its important for you to have a place to sort your felings out, vent and even a pity party now and again . (I did so many of them LOL ) until I got hit with alot of 2x4'd witch helped to snap me out of it .

I know this may sound weird but don't worry what he posts , yes even if it is not all the things he told ya yet , reason being , he needs to sort things out and also everyone around here will be able to pick on things and always will explain to him that HONEST is a key ingredent to this M .

I would maybe get the ground rule to him that he be honest here as well as with you .

But remeber you won't know things till he IS ready to tell you anyway .

Part of coming out of the FOG you will see is that he starts to come clean more and more with out you doing all the leg work of snooping and throughing in to him .

I noticed that with time my H started to talk about the A and not shut up , it was not as often as I wanted but at his pace as he felt safe that I wouldn't take a BAT out and hit a home run with his head LOL

Belive me I was queen of LB .

The PLAN B thing your right , it isn't that time . NOw if he continues to show signs of bracking n/c and cake eating you will know when it is right .

This n/c is a hard part , but getting his mind off the withdrawal is just as hard . Take it one day at a time , slowly the pads can come off the wall and you can be safe to come out without wanting to ,, ripe his head off his shoulders .

But keep posting , sometimes others pick up on things we BS are to FOGED to see LOL

3isacrowd, I don't want to give up this place. You all have been my lifeline. Maybe it's like he had his OW and I have my MB buddies. Don't move onto my turf H-Baby! I'm just so sick of secrets. H's secrets with OW. Now maybe more secrets on this site until he's ready to come clean. It's just weird for me to think you folks might know stuff that I don't know. I'm not sure why that annoys me so much. Maybe because everything I write on here he knows from me telling him. Minus my sobbing epidodes, which I informed him of yesterday. And of course the occasional crude, sarcastic humor, with the every so often "[censored]" name calling thing mixed in. Of course there is the occasional "I really don't like this man and I think I want to dump him." That might not be so nice for him to know about. I'll try to figure it out. Thanks!

Just an update on H and I. Coming clean about breaking NC was good for him. I can see he is not out of the woods. He has made it clear that he wants to recover our M and be a family. We talked this morning and I told him I don't want to open my heart to him if he is going to be contacting her again. I want to move on from this withdrwal and I'm not an unlimited pit of giving. He said he understands. Concerning NC it sounds like he is striving for NC, but can't say there will be NC. He said give him one more week and maybe he can say that. I told him that's like an alcoholic saying I want to stop drinking, but give me another week to say whether I won't have another drink.

I reminded him that if he I get to the point of having to kick him out we will have to tell our boys, my family, his family, and the community will know. He said he doesn't want any of that to happen. I then said that I will also out OW to her parents. Well that got to him "her parents are so nice. They take care of a retarded son. How could you do that?" I told him that's all too bad. But if our M breaks up because of our A her parents will know the whole ugly truth about their little girl.

H seems more aware of the fantasy aspect of this A. I know he still wonders if they were more compatable than us. He actually wanted my EN questionaire. He came to the conclusion that maybe if he starts trying to meet my ENs he will feel more for me, as apposed to waiting for his feelings to return. He is worried the in-love feelings won't return. In many ways I wish this A would have played out so he could see what the reality likely would have been. He told me ending it in the in-love stage was really rough. Lucky me, and lucky him.

I'm encouraging him to keep posting here. I think he disagreed with some of you about certain issues. I can only imagine. I told him he needs to say something, not just never post again. I hope he does. He needs you guys to further drag him out of this hellish fog. Thanks all! CV