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See, now here is where the cynic in me comes out.

I think your H was quite clever with the "Can you go pick up my suits?" request. Why in the world couldn't you pick them up after work today or later this evening? Why yesterday, right before the game is going to end? Nid, I think he's smart enough to realize that if he gets defensive your radar is just going to go up. I think he wanted to talk to her and he came up with a really ingenious way to send you on an errand. He knows you are working overtime to please him and I bet he didn't even consider that you might tell him "no" to such a simple request. However, your gut led you to do and say the right things. That is what is important.If you had gone to do what he had asked, there he would have had the perfect opportunity for contact that could go undiscovered. I think your H is a very smart and manipulative WS. My gut doesn't trust him as far as I could throw him. You did a great job of being in control of that situation and working it for everyone's good.

Honestly, nid, for your sake I hope I am 100% wrong. I guess I've just seen way to many senarios in the 4 1/2 years I've been around here. Sheesh, sounds like it's time for me to blow this joint! LOL! Did the priest saying mass emphasize in his homily that the main tenent of the gospel message is to go and sin NO MORE? I hope so!

Nid...please hire the PI or tap the phones now!

I can't think of a single good reason why you should wait until he is out.

The sooner you know for sure they sooner that you can come up with a definitive game plan.

If he's still continuing the A with her (I know you think he doesn't have a way but we all know how sneaky these fogbound WS's are) then you can confront him and see what happens and go Plan B if necessary.

If he's not...you'll have a little more peace of mind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think your H was quite clever with the "Can you go pick up my suits?" request. Why in the world couldn't you pick them up after work today or later this evening? Why yesterday, right before the game is going to end? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This particular store is only open on Sat. and Sun. and was closing at 6:00. It was 5:20 and we thought we would be going another inning. By the time the game was over, we wouldn't have had much time to pick them up and he would have had to wait until next weekend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did the priest saying mass emphasize in his homily that the main tenent of the gospel message is to go and sin NO MORE? I hope so!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, he did.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">please hire the PI or tap the phones now!

I can't think of a single good reason why you should wait until he is out.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, but I just can't see that he is right now. I mean, we were together all weekend. He goes to bed when I do. And trust me I sleep so lightly now, that I know his every move. During the week, he is home early from work and we're together all evening. This is why I think its best to just wait until he moves out. He will have more freedom and if he is still seeing her, he won't think he has to be so careful.

Ok, so that makes more sense.

I do think you should wait until he moves out to do the PI thing. Hopefully they can tap the phone wherever he ends up staying. There is no use wasting your money now if he's with you all of the time.

I vote for the extended stay hotel. I think he'll figure things out before a seven month lease would be up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I vote for the extended stay hotel. I think he'll figure things out before a seven month lease would be up.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I'm hoping he'll decide too. The financial aspect of all of this is bothering him I think.

One thing I talked about with him yesterday was the fact that we are finally in a place financially to do so many things that we never could do before, things that would build love through recreation, time together etc. and here we are splitting up. We never used to have the extra money before to go on the nice vacations, or just do things that we like to do (Pro basketball games, etc). We never spent enough time together just the two of us, building things in common. Any time we spent was with our son and his activities. His prior jobs always took up so much of our time at home and he was always so stressed. Now he has a job that is so much less stressful and so much more money. We are at a place where we can devote time to our R and we are splitting up. It is so sad and he thinks it is too late. He doesn't realize that our lack of a "friendship", really the lack of love, is because we never devoted enough time to eachother. I tried to explain to him that we can be compatible (he thinks we're not) if only we begin to find things that we can enjoy doing together. These things will also provide a basis for conversations that we have been lacking.

I'm hoping my points in our conversation made some sense to him.

WG, I can see how similar our situation is. Do you have children? How do you deal with them? My hardest part is about children. I don't know what I am going to do.

LNH, I have a 10 year old son. He is upset, but doesn't really know what to say to his dad. I just tell him to give his dad his honest feelings, that his dad needs to know how he feels. He's getting better at it and has told his dad he doesn't want him to leave. I worry about him resenting his dad, so I'm careful to explain that his dad is confused and needs time to sort out his feelings. At the same time, I've told him he must express his honest feelings to him. I have told him of the consequences of his moving out. We may work it out, or his dad may decide he wants a divorce. I ask him how he feels about that prospect and it is very disturbing to him. So I've told him he needs to let his dad know that as well. I don't know if I'm saying the right things, but I am being honest with him about the situation and about my own feelings. Also, I'm showing him a lot of love and affection, nothing new there though.

Nid,

One thing. Please stop trying to educate him. I guarantee you that every time you think you are giving him a nugget to ponder, it's a love bust.

This makes you appear to be his mother, trying to convince him, make sure he doesn't miss a single point to consider etc. He's a big boy. You don't need to do this. It's counterproductive. Stop having relationship talks unless he brings something up, then keep it brief and NO EDUCATING. He's already said he "doesn't know" many, many times. Let him be. It looks desperate, needy and clingy when you say things to try to get him to "wake up". It's overwhelming to a WS, makes them feel like they need to get away to get that "break" even more. He'll get it, he just needs to see for himself what it feels like to be without you. You must let him feel it nid. If you try to save him from that, he'll just need to do it in another few years and you'll be back in the same spot all over again.

Mtr,

I see your point. I guess i tried to educate him too much and being a mom too. He told me that he was afraid that things will go back to before. The nice me will go back to the old one. How do I act to let him feel it. It is soooooo hard.

Hmm..I usually agree with Mthrrhbard but not so sure on the educating point.

If I preached to my H it failed...if I talked to him as a friend and gave him my thoughts it worked.

What also worked was giving him things to read at his leisure.

Even though there wasn't always an immediate response and even though in beginning he was still in fog and self denial...he couldn't stop himself from thinking about what I said or what he read.

It took awhile but it all sunk in and helped him out of the fog.

Big key for me was to "educate" without appearing to be trying to "control" him.

My H was bugged at those "nuggets of wisdom" because they made him feel worse than he already did.

He was already well aware of all of the things I was trying to get across anyway. My thoughts and info were overwhelming him and made him feel like he couldn't get a break.

It depends on how often you do this and HOW you do it. Men do not want to be controlled.


Lostnhurt

You show H your changes by being CONSISTENT in your changes. We all backslide now and again but he's got to see the positive changes in you much more than he sees the old you. Practice makes perfect! You can't make him feel it,he has to see it for a long while first, then he'll be more inclined to believe it.

Don't know your story though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One thing. Please stop trying to educate him. I guarantee you that every time you think you are giving him a nugget to ponder, it's a love bust.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He has been instigating the talks. he wants to know my thoughts and feelings. These are things he's craved for for so long. And I am not doing it in a LB way at all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Stop having relationship talks unless he brings something up </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is the one asking me the questions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He told me that he was afraid that things will go back to before. The nice me will go back to the old one.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H fears this too, LNH. I just keep telling him I have learned so much now, and I'm seeing things in such a different way than ever before.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I preached to my H it failed...if I talked to him as a friend and gave him my thoughts it worked.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree forever. My H really enjoys talks like this where we truly express our feelings without any anger, preaching, etc. Just honesty and openness about the way we feel.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Practice makes perfect! You can't make him feel it,he has to see it for a long while first, then he'll be more inclined to believe it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what my H says. He says he's seen my changes and he likes them, its just he says HE can't just change over night. I tell him I know and understand this and definitely do not expect it. I am patient and will continue to try to show him.

You're doing good nid, keep it up. As long as he's the one initiating talks do whatever you can to keep the communication open.

This is kind of the "honeymoon" feeling that couples get as they start to work things out. Enjoy it for what it's worth. It helps to keep the mood hopeful instead of so morose.

Well, only one more day to go til the end of the month. I don't see any bags being packed, but I am so anxious that the bomb is going to drop any day. I am avoiding any R talk at all costs and have been biting my tongue when questions pop into my head. We've had a great past few days. Last night I was going running and my H said he would come along and rollerblade (he can't run right now). Usually when we run together he puts on his headphones and we go at different paces. But last night, no headphones and he bladed right along side of me. We talked as we went. It was so nice. He had wanted to go work out, but he said he wasn't going to because it would make me feel anxious. I said he could go, but he didn't. Instead he worked out in the garage. How am I doing? If he doesn't move out, should I bring it up?

Funny thing last night, my H made a comment that he couldn't keep his eyes off of me because I look so good. My S overheard this, looked at me, smiled really big, and lifted his eyebrows up and down. I think he was so happy to hear his dad make a comment like that about me. My H was aware of his happy response too.

I don't want to assume too much, but things are looking up a little I think.

I've been planning to wait until April 1 to say, "I told you so."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wontgiveupyet:
<strong> Well, only one more day to go til the end of the month.

How am I doing? If he doesn't move out, should I bring it up?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope. Let that dog snooze.

WAT

You know, WAT, Melody thinks I have done Plan A long enough and should go to Plan B which would mean asking him to leave. I think that while I have been in Plan A a long time, its taken me a while to quit LB'ing and perhaps now Plan A is finally starting to sink in. What do you think?

I believe your Plan A is being effective, but I also believe you can't keep this up for long.

I believe a near term decision to go to Plan B is contingent on determining whether the OW is still in the picture. If she is, it's a no brainer to go to Plan B - when you meet the conditions for Plan B, namely, that you're separated and you need to protect yourself from further love bank withdrawals. If you feel you're about drained, and he hasn't left, you should ask him to leave.

(This doesn't mean he will and I'd like to watch when you ask him. I bet he'd be scared as hell and may eat out of your hand.)

But, you haven't met either condition yet. IF he moves out and IF he will not establish no contact, I agree you should go to Plan B, asssuming your tank is near E.

If the affair has already ended, I think your H is a selfish a$$ because he's putting HIS participation in the LL board - with OW's involvement - as a higher priority than your family.

I don't know if application of MB principles can fix this, but you should ask him to leave anyway.

He's read here, he's read part of some of the books, he's read my post to him, yet he will not sacrifice his participation on the LL board which would permit the establishment of NC with OW. Thus, the LL board is more important than his family. How sad. What a selfish a$$. What a poor excuse for a man. Whatever jollies he gets from the board are better than the jollies he gets from your family. Selfishness, ego, whatever. In the least, an ignorantly shortsighted man.

If the affair is NOT over - or he refuses to tell OW it's over, over, OVER!!! - MB principles can work and Plan B, when the conditions are met, is necessary.

One thing is clear - you cannot achieve a recovery if any contact with OW takes place. ANY!!! There must be zip, zilch, zero, nada, none. Even if some LL board contact could be "safe" for potentially re-kindling the affair - YOU would never fully recover because you'd always have doubt in your trust. You would never have an "end" and you'd LB him away.

I don't know the answer for you.

He says it's over, he somewhat acts like it's over, yet he won't DEMONSTRATE it's over by establishing NC.

I think Mel, mthrrhbrd, and others equate this, for all practical purposes, to a continuation of the affair. That's the safest bet. He may not be having routine contact, but the opportunity for contact remains and he may be as emotionally involved as ever.

I recommend that if he moves out and he won't agree to a NC letter - including either she or he leaves the board, Plan B is necessary. If he doesn't move out and you get to near the end of your rope - ask him to leave. But I recommend MORE that you get a session with SH to get his view.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I believe your Plan A is being effective, but I also believe you can't keep this up for long.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think so too, WAT. He has actually started admitting and accepting responsibility for the state of our M. He also wants to get into counseling. I am being careful not to push him in any way because I want him to see that our M can work, it can be great.

The one thing I'm having a problem with is letting him out of my sight. How do I handle this? One part of it is that I am desperately wanting to spend time with him. The other part is that I have very little trust. He has been very concientious when he goes on an errand and reassures me by calling and checking in. I don't want to smother him. I guess this is why I need the PI, so that I can determine whether or not I can trust him not to be in contact with her.

Right now I am avoiding even asking him if he has contacted her because I don't want to bring her up. I have checked on him myself several times when he could have had an opportunity to call or see her and I have found nothing. I don't want to be naive, but I'm just not seeing any signs. So far, my gut has always been right. I actually am falling asleep easily the past few days.

Well, last night I tried to initiate sex with my H and for maybe the 2nd time in our whole 13 years together he declined saying he needed to finish planning his day for tomorrow. He said he needed to finish first. I went to bed and read and fell asleep. He found me sleeping and said he would just snuggle with me when he came to bed. He came to bed very late and he did not snuggle with me at all. He slept all the way on his side of our king size bed with his back to me. This is the way he has been sleeping for the past week or so. He doesn't want to be intimate anymore. What is going on?

I feel like there is a time bomb ticking in my house and its getting ready to go off.

Yesterday he said, "What if we can't recover?" I said, "I don't really believe in 'can't', but rather 'won't'." I said, "You only can't if you don't try." He said he just doesn't know if he can "emotionally" recover. I can't make him see that he can. It is so frustrating.

A part of me wants to just make him an appointment with SH and make him do it, but that would be wrong wouldn't it?