I thought you had made your boundries as far as his returning fairly plain... that being the case, and assuming you stick to them, he can hardly accuse you of waffling.

Patience, LL.... patience.

dewt

LL, before you consider taking him back, I want to emphasize something so you understand CLEARLY. He only wants to come back for one reason and one reason only: he is uncomfortable in the camper. He doesn't give a damn about the marriage. He doesn't care about ending his affair with the OW. He has no reason to end it.

He only gives a very BIG DAMN about his comfort. And THAT IS IT.

Your only value to him is in how you benefit him. You do understand this, right? I would make sure you can accept all this about him before you consider letting him come home.

What do you need to get through this, LL? When I say get through this, I mean, what do you want out of life? You don't seem to know. You are putting yourself between a rock and a hard place - you want your husband back, but you don't want to suffer. From everything you've said, suffering comes along with this husband of yours, so that must be what you really want, at least - from some of your statements, that is what you are willing to settle for in life in order to avoid being alone. If that's what you want, go for it.

I totally agree with ML - no-one is suggesting you DV him because of drinking - but its also wrong to accept that you are "Biblically" stuck with a spouse who is an active alcoholic, just because he is not involved in adultery AT THE MOMENT. If you don't mind my saying so, this perception among Christians is what has led to many Christian women staying with an abusive spouse, and its simply wrong. I don't think there is any Christian church, mine included (Catholic) which condones abuse within a marriage, and active alcoholism is easily considered to be active emotional abuse, especially when, as in your case, it is coupled with flagrant infidelity (this is the second time your H has been unfaithful to you, is it not?).

Do you need encouragement to stand firm and not take him back?

Lets just take some statements from your own post -

he has said all he can about how uncomfortable it is and how it's not fair that I'm getting to enjoy the comforts of a home in which 1/2 of everything belongs to him while he lives in the camper.
Selfish - self-interest.

He did tell me today that he's trying N/C with OW, but his version is just not answering the phone. I want him to tell her he wants to work things out with me and that he will not be contacting her anymore. And I told him - preferably in writing.

He refuses--says he's not going to call and tell her that because I'm backpeddling. He said I told him and told him I want him back and now I'm hedging on the deal
Is he willing to do things in the way you need him to, and the way you asked him to, for your sake? No - he has just argued with you about how he should do it. He will only do what he wants, how he wants to do it and when he wants to. He won't put himself out for you one bit.

I told him I'm scared to death to let him back without him proving he's done with OW and without him stopping drinking because if he is still drinking, I won't be able to rebuild trust.

So he responds back, "Fine, I should have just taken care of things when I walked out the door in the first place (I think he means D).

You tell him how you feel, and he responds with a threat.

I don't mean to be a [censored], but I'm not going to live like this forever.

Translated as "I really am a [censored], and I don't intend to change now or ever. If you don't give me what I want, I'll look elsewhere."

I'm going to do whatever it takes to make me comfortable.

I'll print that one again.

I'm going to do whatever it takes to make ME comfortable.

This is all he cares about. This is what he lives for. He's telling you plain and simple that he is number one and his comfort-zone is all he cares about. Don't have any illusions, LL. This is IT. Any good times you have with this man are accidents - they happen when it works for him.

I shouldn't have to live like this.
"Life (or someone) owes me a living." BS.

I told him it's not that I don't want him back. I do. But I want to know that he loves me and that HE wants to work on our marriage, no that he just wants to come back because he's uncomfortable or has no other choice.

Good for you that you were brave enough to state this clearly - what you want and need from him, even if he isn't listening or doesn't want to hear.

He got pissed at that statement, too, and told me to ask DS how a man would interpret that coming from a woman. So, when DS got home I did ask--and he said WH is being a "fruitcake".

He would get mad at any sign of you having anything resembling a need, or wanting anything out of him. He thinks its "unmanly" to bow to his wife's requests and he appeals to the judgement of his teenage son? Thank God your DS has his head screwed on straight!

I don't know what to do. I don't want to lose him on one hand, and feel like I may if he interprets my hesitation as dangling a carrot and then yanking it back from him. But on the other hand, I don't want him back with his present attitude.

Crumbling now will get you absolutely nowhere.

I'm afraid he may get so pissed he may file for D and force me to give up the house, because I can't pay for it on my own.

I suspect he won't do this right now because it would mean he would lose any chance of having a place to live. Its a lot easier to bully and threaten you into letting him back through that door.

I need his support.

Do you really? If you had a smaller place and a smaller mortgage, you wouldn't need his help. Your kids are old enough to cope for awhile.

He also knows 1/2 of my retirement benefits are his, and I have quite a bit. He has none.

So as long as you allow yourself to be bullied by him for the rest of your life, he gets to live in clover.

I can see myself getting screwed---and not in an enjoyable way.

At least you can now see that you are the one who is letting yourself be screwed. I just don't understand what you are getting out of this.

LIR

Wow, I missed quite a bit,

Youa re feeling some MAJOR guilt from many sides, your Pastor, your Husband, and especially YOURSELF!!!

I completely agree with ML, PB, and others, he will NOT change unless some very severe events happen in his life... And that you ALREADY have reason to D, just because he isn't always active with OW doesn't mean the A didn't happen.

How do you deal with manipulations? You have been getting stronger and stronger. You are much stronger than months ago, and getting closer and closer to a Plan B...after vacation? Maybe sooner? He seems to be needing a very clear idea of waht is expected of him to return to the M...PBL?

Copied one of your past dialogues so I could fill in my two cents worth of what I would say in a perfect world (i.e. I had it written down so I could think of my response for a few days...)

Him: You don't want me back. You want a lapdog. Animal Rescue League could fix you up with that. (He sees my insistance on his giving up booze as trying to change him into my personal pet.)

Me: I do want you back, and do you really think we should get another dog?

Him: Have a good life.

Me: Is that goodbye? Or are you saying that to hurt me?

Him: Don't talk to me right now because I am about as pissed as I can get.

Me: You want to finish talking, or you want me to be silent so you can talk? I'll let you know if you are going to be abusive over the phone though I will get off quickly because I don't deserve that.

Him: You're not in it 100% so just drop it.

Me: Perhaps you are right, what more can I do? (This may open a can of worms, him asking for things you just won't do.)

Him: I didn't expect anything different. I will put DS's card in mailbox. I don't think I am welcome there, or anywhere else for that matter.

Me: Of course you are welcome at your son's party. If you choose not to show up it is your choice.

Him: Because I have failed.

Me: Perhaps you have, haven't I too? I am working on my failings, I think I'm getting better, am I?

Go ahead and bend with him...agree with him. He IS a failure and lowlife right now...he wants you to say everything's OK...it's not!! He wants to make you feel guilty for the requests you have made...he wants you to doubt what changes you are asking for (you do already, see how well he does it?)

Please, stay strong!! For yourself!!! For your M!!! You and your M will be better for it!!!
Strong boundaries will save you and your BP!!! (and your DD, and your security...)

LL, miss you.

You really got good advice here. I don't think I can add more,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please, stay strong!! For yourself!!! For your M!!! You and your M will be better for it!!!
Strong boundaries will save you and your BP!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Prayer for you.

I am not good at computer, when I am done loading my pictures, i will e-mail them to you.

First, here are the texts since my last post. Some were last night--some were just recently. I probably made DJ's but am not sure how else to express myself:

Me: Your statement about how you should have taken care of things at the start makes me doubt your desire to come back. I don't deny that all we own is jointly ours. I want to try to rebuild our marriage but if you file, I intend to be fair with asset division.

WH: I guess if you want to be single, you are working toward that goal.

Me: Took "single" statement as a threat. It gave the impression you care about your comfort, not our marriage. This is why I am nervous. I am curious if you are the one who wants to be single and are trying to get me to make the move.

-----------------------------------------------
Dewt,

Did I ever mention I'm NOT patient???

ML,

He only gives a very BIG DAMN about his comfort. And THAT IS IT.

This is the red flag that keeps waving back and forth in my brain. Yes, I do believe this is the case, at least at this moment.

LIR,

what do you want out of life? You don't seem to know

I guess I really don't know. Curious thought. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Do you need encouragement to stand firm and not take him back?

I am not confident of my own strength or abilities, so yes, I keep looking here and elsewhere for answers. I know it takes a LONG time to get through to me.

He thinks its "unmanly" to bow to his wife's requests and he appeals to the judgement of his teenage son?

This I believe is also totally true. It's similar to something he admitted to me recently about not wanting to feel like he is "giving in".

If you had a smaller place and a smaller mortgage, you wouldn't need his help.

My place isn't all that big. I only owe $115K on the mortgage now. Any smaller mortgage is only going to get me a tiny house on the not-so-nice side of town. I want to do everything I can to keep this place because I really like the house, and I like my neighbors and my neighborhood.

SHMI,

completely agree with ML, PB, and others, he will NOT change unless some very severe events happen in his life.

And I agree with all of you. I just keep saying, "Does God want me to take him back now--you know 'for better or worse'?" I know perfectly well that the chances of him coming home and THEN becoming a different person are slim to none.

I am a weak person when it comes to boundaries with him. I've always bailed him out of his problems. I am trying hard to stay strong--day by day.

LNH,

I am patiently waiting for the pictures. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Miss you, too!

LL

<small>[ May 04, 2004, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

Hmmmm,

Well I guess my thoughts about God differ from others (and don't we all have a little different view) but I tend to think of God as the wise grandparent that we can ask advice of, will help us when we are really struggling, will stand by and watch us make mistakes, but generally lets us make our own decisions. Who knows what the choices we make today will effect YEARS from now.

There are many on here that have years of experience and can tell you from their experience what effects some choices have made on their lives.

Take him back? Once again...does he want to? And would that build a Christian M?

Great answers to his texts...pointing out when he is saying things to be manipulative...

I'll tell you the turning point for my H and I, when I gave him the PBL and he saw me giving up...

SHMI,

You're right-I do think everyone see's God differently. I also do believe he lets us make our own decisions, right or wrong. That's the gift he gave us--freedom of choice. How would we prove we loved him if he forced all our decisions? However, I do believe there are right decisions and wrong decisions in his eyes, and I'm concerned about making the right one.

As for a PBL, I'm worried that because I gave my WH a PBL back in February and then blew it, and then tried to reinstate it in March and ended up backing down before it ever even happened, because he was talking giving her up, that he won't take me seriously now.

I really don't see a practical way to do PB in May. But I do feel my love diminishing very quickly right now. What if I just don't care by the time I get to June?

I do have my 3rd session with Jennifer on May 19th. I purposely scheduled it for after I returned from my FL trip with my company because I knew I'd need redirected by then. I doubt I can afford more than maybe one more after this one.

LL

I do believe there are right decisions and wrong decisions in his eyes, and I'm concerned about making the right one.

Yes, I think there are right and wrong decisions and there are MANY just OK decisions, and we will never know till the end whether they were good ones or not. I don't believe we can know God's will in many instances, we can do what we think is right based on his word...but there are always exceptions. Someone once told me the reason for Pharoah's downfall is because he stuck to the rules...

Yes, D is not what we're here for, not why you got M...but is it your choice? And does God say you have to LIVE with your adulterous, alcoholic H? What if he D you? I can tell what your Pastor said to you is gnawing at you. I wonder what his experience is with alcoholics?

And I also read where you're making excuses not to go to Plan B. Why not? Why? Back and forth. You mean you want to be hurt more? You want a constant reminder of how grumpy and drunk he is? You want him to be able to come in and crash so he can stay up all night with OW? (Sorry about that...pretty rude of him though). Why can't you move to Plan B in May? Going to wait until you've lost all love?

I think you've lost all love now...all you think about is D. Try Plan B before D.

Check out Tinman's post...post yoiur PBL there before sending it, or handing it in person...

And does God say you have to LIVE with your adulterous, alcoholic H? What if he D you?

If my WH D me because of this A, I believe it is allowed in God's eyes, as it is allowed for me to D him if my heart is too hardened to get past the A. The conversation with the pastor revolved around whether I am keeping him at bay becaues of the A or because of the drinking. His point is, if I'm only contemplating not taking him back because of his drinking, then that in itself isn't a valid reason.

And the problem is, it's all wrapped up together. If he drinks, I'm afraid I can't trust him. If he gives up his OW, but is still drinking, I'm afraid he'll go back. But maybe that's just an extreme lack of trust on my part and not giving him the benefit of second chances. Of course, he hasn't come out and said, "Please give me another chance. I want to work on our marriage." He's only said, "I'm living in a camper while you have all the comforts at home."

He hasn't responded back to my text messages. I'm sure he's not happy.

I have thought about Plan B in May, but honestly, I am not sure how it could be done. It certainly couldn't be without contact with him. He has to stay with the kids next week. There is no one else to stay with them while I'm gone. And he has to stay at the house, because they can't stay an hour away in a camper with him.

I have to allow him to come to DS's graduation and his graduation reception the last part of May, too, because he's OUR son.

No, I don't want him coming to the house and crashing all the time. I felt it was okay the night of the party because I was the one who ran things late. He could have left during the party and gotten to bed earlier, but chose to stay.

I don't want him moving back, though, and using the house as a landing pad between visits with OW.

I have no idea if they're still in contact or not, but in transferring $ from his bank account, noticed that he took her out to dinner both last Wednesday and Thursday night. Not generally the way you move to N/C with an OW, is it?

His statements about taking care of things in the beginning and half of everything being his cause me to lose more hope. This is the first time he's really headed down the D path.

I do believe in miracles. My gut feeling is that it's going to take one here, though, because I don't think things look good at all. His A has been going on since last September. All he does is grow more and more distant.

LL

LL, this is off subject, but were you abused as a child? Are you from an alcoholic home?

LL - You don't have to wait to hear from the Lord - his word is in the Bible. Please read Ephesians 5:25-33. If WH has NC with OW and meets the requirements in scripture, by all means take him back.

ML,

Good questions, but actually "no" to both. My mother is very verbally abusive but my father caught the most of it. My sis and I learned her ways well, though. I can be ruthless if backed into a corner--something I really dislike about myself and am working hard to change. But mostly, Mom is an extreme worrier and was just very overprotective of us.

No alcohol in our house, either, and no alcoholism in my family anywhere that I'm aware. So I didn't recognize my then boyfriend's alcohol problems as alcoholism until years after we were married. I drank a lot right with him until I became PG with my DS, at which point I became a responsible aduit. He is right when he says I've changed since we got married. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Believer,

I know--I have those verses marked in my Bible. I also hold to Matthew 5:32 when working toward decisions.

No, he is not fulfilling the Biblical requirements of a H at all, but I know I didn't do the greatest fulfilling those of a W, either.

I've been trying to figure out what really caused my change in attitude and I think it took it's turn the week he promised to take me out that Saturday night, all week assured me we were on, then went to MP's house and started drinking and stood me up. It occurred to me that I meant nothing to him at that point. Also, it hurt so badly because he was there for 6 months for OW, to fulfill her every need for transportation, company, SF, you name it. I ask for one date in a 3-month period and get stood up.

I know I should jump immediately into Plan B to preserve what remains, and really, there is still some there. If I believed that he truly wanted me back and was willing to do whatever it took to prove that to me, I could easily be persuaded.

But right now I've wised up to just how much I don't mean to him. It hurts--but it's actually freed me a little. I have put on some of my weight and am more at peace than I was for a long time. I know I'm focusing now more on his bad points than good, which is not healthy, but when I focus on the good I get the pain of missing him back.

I even looked at some vacation photos of all of us last night and didn't get all emotional.

LL

lordslady....

what you are missing in all of this is your modified plan a....

remember that...that was what you decided when you talked to jennifer and decided that plan b wasn't quite so right...

so you gotta quit engaging him in futile nebulous power struggles on text messages....

and I almost fell off my chair a while back when I read about the verbal spitting matches with you and your friends....uggghhh..that was tough to read...and I hope you learned from that...really learned from that...you don't have to defend your actions to anyone....so I am not going to talk about that....since I am SURE you learned your lesson.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Any way...back to the issue at hand...

I cringe every time I read that he text messaged you..or left a message...I cringe at your response...
you skip chance after chance to remove yourself from this chaos and you play right in to his victim hood and blame...

I'm living in a camper while you have all the comforts at home."

babble back...
"I know, I think of that a lot...except my home is missing my old husband...."

he says...
I shouldn't have to live like this.
you babble back..

"I agree with you 100%"

He is weak right now..
He is experiencing some of the consequances of his choices..
He is going to fight and claw at you to shift blame...
He is going to go in to heavy rationalization which is exactly why you need to

1. step up plan a...and soothe some of this with your same boundaries in place...


2. remove yourself from the blame game...babble back....change the subject...(NOT bring it up yourself).....

3. try to show him glimpses of a safe environment in your house...so the stark loneliness of a grown man living in a camper hits him stark between the eyes...

If I were you I would try a day or two of no contact.... not noticable inforced no contact...just pleasantly too busy right this moment/day to intereact to much.....
then step up plan a....

...cook him a meal and take it to him...or buy him some bakery cookies he likes....

"thought of you living there...makes me sad you know......here made you this"...and then leave..
(drop it off at his work....)....

and be busy with somewhere to go or do...

As long as you engage in verbal tango of blame and such.....it feeds in to and diffuses his need to look at his exact actions that put him in a camper....

all this spitting matches are getting you no where..
he knows your boundaries...
they are dead on...


ARK

<small>[ May 05, 2004, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

Well Ark, I blew it again before I read your reply. Like I said, I'm struggling, and having a hard time not LBing.

He left a text this morning that I have left two voice messages in response to.

The text: Just concerned about the sincerity of you wanting to work out the marriage when you've picked someone from the church to be the next Mr. LL...HUH?

The history on this: The same fateful night I kicked the hole in the bathroom door (maybe a month or so ago?), in speaking with MP who at that point I thought was my friend, I made the mention that I had no intentions of being alone for the rest of my life if WH chose to leave me. I also told her I realized that there ARE people who would meet my criteria as a partner and for example, the guy at church--widowed, not bad looking, etc.

Did I say I was chasing him??? NO! Did I say I was going to??? NO! I merely sighted an example because I was feeling backed into a corner and I wanted her to know I wasn't going to kiss WH's behind and take him back if he wasn't going to follow the rules of coming back, and that there are other fish in the sea.

Was it right or a smart thing to do? NOPE!

And now, apparently she's angry with me for cutting off my conversations with her (I told her during our last fight that I would not be talking to her again until WH makes a decision one way or another, and I've held to it), she's hell-bent on causing all sorts of problems.

First, the thing about the pastor came out. Then out comes the statement that WH doesn't need to pay child support once DS turns 18 (which he did on Sunday), and now this.

Okay, I've learned not to trust MP. It serves to remind me that others are not to be trusted and I should only trust God.

My response to the text: I left two voice messages filled with not-so-nice assumptions about MP and how she obviously wansn't my friend nor was her mission to help us, but all she's about is getting back at people. I also told WH that it was his choice if he wanted to believe her after she's twisted so many things around.

My big LB'er was the second call when I said, "It was no different than you pointing out a friend of mine and saying you could give her what she needs to be happy (which he's jokingly said many times) and me taking it and assuming it's a serious statement that she'll be the next object of your affair. If you are using this statement as justification for staying with OW, and if you really want her and she does it for you, then you can have her. I don't want you back in this marriage unless your heart is in it."

I probably kissed it all good-bye. I'm just really starting to see his supreme selfishness lately. His claws are coming out, and MP is doing nothing but helping it along. I knew it would be bad to have him living in the camper on their property. I just didn't realize how bad.

Why do I have to allow MP to enter my house for my DS's graduation reception?? I don't want her within 50 years of my property.

I am pissed. Can you tell??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

And it doesn't help that I'm having a drug reaction and I itch and one eye looks like someone punched me in it today, and I had to come to work anyway because I have deadlines.

Okay, bash away with your 2x4's. I know I'm blowing it. It's good that I'm getting away for three days starting Monday.

LL

Oh, LL, I knnow how much you are going through.

Can you stay with no contact with him? I feel more peaceful without much talk. But my problem is too much silence. he said one of his top need is converation I could not meet. What do i say? I don't want to get into fight. But in your case, not replying him will keep you away from trouble.

Hey, hey, hey, not so bad, told him your concerns about MP, have laid the groundwork for a way for him to see things straighter (stop talking to her).

He's feeling guilty, how do I know?

The text: Just concerned about the sincerity of you wanting to work out the marriage when you've picked someone from the church to be the next Mr. LL...HUH?

He's thrown it back at you...what he's doing is not so wrong if he can make you feel guilty...
It's a classic. Yep, he'll bring up all your trangressions, make himself feel better ...not.

No Plan B in May? Why not? Because of graduation and the out of town trip...OK, have you laid the ground rules that OW is NOT allowed in the house? That there will be no drinking in the house?

Have you started working on your Plan B Letter...some folks post it on here and will work on it for weeks before sending it...it's to come as a shock for the WS, not for you...

SHMI,

I have been very clear that OW is not to be on the property. WH thinks he's going to drive my car while I'm gone becauese it gets far better mileage than his truck. I'm trying to think of a non-LBing way to say no. I KNOW he'll have OW in the car, and I don't want her there, either! (Not to mention, he's very hard on vehicles. If he wants to tear up his truck, fine. I don't want him blowing up the supercharger in my car!)

I have not addressed the drinking in the house, yet. I wasn't sure I could enforce that one if I wasn't there. I'm afraid if I tell him he can't drink in the house, he won't be there until midnight each night to watch the kids.

At this point I think I have lost enough love that I'm ready for Plan B (never thought I'd get there, did you?), but no, I really don't see how we could do a real one with all that goes on between now and May 26th.

I have't posted a PBL yet because I posted my first one eons ago and then didn't take any advice on standing by Plan B once I started. I think I posted the letter I was going to give him for my 2nd attempt, too. What's this...PB, take 3?

But what the heck, I might put another one out there.

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WH thinks he's going to drive my car while I'm gone becauese it gets far better mileage than his truck. I'm trying to think of a non-LBing way to say no. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That one's easy.

"No you may not drive my car. I don't feel comfortable loaning my car to an actively drinking alcoholic."

or

"No you may not use my car. I don't feel comfortable thinking OW might be riding in it."

Of course he'll protest and make empty promises and tell you how mean you are, but really nothing more needs be said about it. You're not comfortable. Period.

why exactly aren't you giving a really good last ditch plan a effort...ESPECIALLY if you are moving towards plan a..


why in Gods name would you power struggle over something as insane as him having your car and letting the OW is going to get in it...
assume she is and work that out on your own...
any type of power struggle over something like speaks of not wantint reconcialliation as much as his stuff does...

do you want to control everything...

give him car and believe that he will do what is right....except turtle head made a good point about the drinking and driving..but even that you can't control it....

when are going to quit verbally struggling the insane stuff...and work on the actions to solidify things...

when

a grown man is living in a trailer....next move is a van by the river.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
plan a now ...

ark

<small>[ May 05, 2004, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>