Hi JL,

I did not get frightened by reading Sarah's messages. I have read some of the emails between my H and his OW and it is exactly the same, so it is not new to me.

I love my H very much and I know that in a way he does love me, too. But then I wonder if he will ever be able to get out of this loving affair that has now lasted off and on for eight years? What makes a person hang on for so long? Can it be real because it has lasted so long?

When I read the postings here, it seems like a lot of the WS's seem to go for the hot sex or whatever other need they may have that is unfulfilled, but hardly ever does anyone talk about a long-term A just like the one that my H is having.

Kati

Kati -

I'm not sure how Sarah's comments can help you but I"m sure in some strange way they can show you the true power of the FOG.

What is she thinking? I can't help but scratch my head at her words. If you take anything away from her post please let it be a better understanding of how the fog and make you speak gibberish. I read her posts and in the back of my head I hear Charlie Brown's teacher.

Not to bash anyone but we are here to support each other through a difficult time not to stroke her ego by acknoledging what she sees as a tribute to her character...staying withher H while loving OM.

This is a great injustice to her H. I hope you realize that by not telling your H you are doing far more harm.

Hang in there Kati. I'm praying for you.

Kati,

I really don't know the answer to your question, but I will offer you my guess. I think that these affairs are fantasies, they fill a need in a person to help or to escape from day to day life. If they were really really strongly attached then each would divorce and marry their "soul-mate" but they don't. It is the worst kind of having your cake and eating it too situation.

I will offer you a possible explanation of Sarah's situation. She lost a son in a automobile accident. She meets a man in a hospital who is dying and she is a nurse. She helps him She talks to him alot about life, and things, he gets an organ donation. She nurses him to health. And the affair is off and running.

Now in my simple mind, this situation aided her in that it took her mind off the lose of her son which in someways being around H and family reminded her off. Second, it was sort of doing for OM what she could NOT do for her son. And the rest is history.

I may not be completely right, but I suspect I am more right than Sarah will admit. She transferred a lot of stuff to her OM, so that her pain was eased, but it ended up hurting her marriage. Notice she will NEVER admit that what she has done has hurt her marriage. She will never admit to anything but that her H KNOWS NOTHING, and is deliriously happy with his marriage, his life, his lot in life. She does this to justify what she knows is wrong. She has stolen from her H a tremendous amount and she has done it for her own selfish satisfaction.

So as you sit there do you think you lost something while your H was splitting time between you and his long time affair? I'll bet you do. I know 2L feels he lost out, because their marriage became a simple charade with his W mumbling stuff like she doesn't believe in marriage, etc. All of this in response to the guilt she does not admit to having.

So is your marriage lost. I don't know. YOu will never be the fantasy the OW is because you are real. You and your H are around one another when one of you is sick, when there are job pressures, perhaps financial, when the kids are not little angles. Real life, real problems, and that takes REAL love. What he has with her requires NO EFFORT. It is easy because they don't have to deal with and overcome reality. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

So if your H wakes up and realizes his fantasy is gone (either via you leaving or he realizing the harm he is doing), then your marriage has a good chance. If he will get real about what is going on.

Those are my thoughts, and they may be worth what you have paid for them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

22bbllee ppoosstt!!

<small>[ April 06, 2004, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Kati:

"I love my H very much and I know that in a way he does love me, too. But then I wonder if he will ever be able to get out of this loving affair that has now lasted off and on for eight years? What makes a person hang on for so long? Can it be real because it has lasted so long? "

Your H's A is only 5 years shorter than my W's. I believe she loves me, 2. I believe her when she says that she and RM have never said ILY 2 each other. I believe her when she tells me that they realized a few years ago after the A reignited, that neither one of them was willing 2 leave their family for the other. But I also believe that they believe they're something like "soulmates" (or, more 'properly' @$$holemates, as jack218 would call it), or that they might even be able 2 "defy the odds" and survive beyond 5 years if they were 2 leave their families and get M'd someday. I can even accept that they might be able 2 live happily ever after if they were 2 do that. But they haven't. RM is now divorced over this A (and his BW's revenge A), but my W and I are still 2gether.

But you have 2 ask yourself this 2uestion: Does it matter whether your H's A is a "loving A" or just a "fix" that just so happens 2 be 8 years old? I would submit 2 you that it doesn't. Because what's important is that you both have the right, indeed the responsibility, 2 make an exclusive choice and grieve the lost alternatives. People having As don't want 2 make those choices, but they need 2 anyway.

And in my case (and probably yours), I have 2 weigh the love I DO feel from my W, and I for her, against the knowledge that her affection continues 2 be divided after 13 years. Do I believe I can survive like this indefinitely? Well, some might say I could, some might even say I should for the benefit of keeping my family 2gether. But I've learned 2 much from posting more than 7000 times 2 this and other, similar forums over the past 26 months. And now I know that life can be BETTER than it has been for the past 13 years, if I will only take responsibility for my own happiness and make my own exclusive choice FOR a monogamous relationship, and no longer accept anything less.

I will be "insisting" on NC, from my W's point of view. But in reality I will be demonstrating, through my own actions, what SHE can do for her own happiness. And if it works out that she then chooses 2 continue and improve our M and exclude RM for the rest of her life, then we just might be able 2 grow old 2gether, much happier than we've been the past 13 years.

-ol' 2long

This is one of the most powerful posts I have ever read. To think that the BS doesn't know that he's being duped is very, very insulting. Of course we know when our WS is somewhere else. WE JUST DON'T KNOW WHERE. My W will constanly criticize me for not being THERE when we are sitting at dinner with our kids etc. You know where I am? Still, 2 years later, imagining where she is. Where her heart is. If she called OM today. If she heard a song that reminded her of him. If she saw his colored truck as she drove through town. Yes, I have been through D-Day but even prior to that disclosure I well knew I was watching someone go through something that would effect us both for the rest of our lives. At least my W had the decency to tell me what it was. In a marriage you are either moving together or moving apart. Which is it?

WOE

JL,

My husband once said to me that phoning/emailing/talking to her is like an escape from reality for him. Homelife has not always been zen and there have been many things going on in our lives that have been tremendously difficult to deal with.

Do I feel like I lost something? Yes, I do. I I don't feel protected in my marriage. I used to feel safe with my husband; safe with my feelings, my thoughts, dreams and worries. Now, I don't feel safe telling him anything because I feel that he is going to share it with her. She, who does not even know me, never met me. But yet she knows some of my most intimate thoughts and problems. I feel that my love and innocense has been betrayed and made fun of.

It really sucks to be real.

Kati

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
So as you sit there do you think you lost something while your H was splitting time between you and his long time affair? I'll bet you do.

So is your marriage lost. I don't know. YOu will never be the fantasy the OW is because you are real.

So if your H wakes up and realizes his fantasy is gone (either via you leaving or he realizing the harm he is doing), then your marriage has a good chance. If he will get real about what is going on.

Those are my thoughts, and they may be worth what you have paid for them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

God Bless,

JL [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

As WOE said, this is a powerful post.

You do know when your WS is somewhere else. I knew something was wrong with my H last year, but because of his alcoholism, I was focused squarely on that. Never suspected an A until right around the time it went PA.

While reading Sarie's post, I thought to myself that her H has to know or suspect. I wonder if he's asked any questions? Or...maybe, he's in an A of his own since his W hasn't really been "there" for so long. I wonder how Sarie would feel about that? Happy for him...that he found loving feelings with an OW that will last a lifetime?

sss

Kati

I know how you feel.

My H told the last OW all about me and my kids. It still makes me sick to think about.

I remember sitting at my desk talking with OW's H after notifying him of the A. OW's H was telling me things that he knew about me, my kids, things that I had done within the last few months. The shock, anger, hurt, etc. that you feel is unbelievable...as you sit there listening to a complete stranger tell you personal things they know about you. It was so creepy.

I do not know either the OW or OW H.

In fact, it still is upsetting. I'm shaking and on the verge of tears just typing this.

((Shake it off))

How do you get trust and the feelings of protection back? I'll have to say that even though our recovery is starting to go pretty well, I still feel vunerable that my H will discuss things about me with other people for his own personal satisfaction.

Take care. (((Hugs for you)))

sss

1long,

My husband did tell the OW that he loved her. He told her that somehow somewhere they are meant to be together, that he will always take care of her and be there for her. I'm not sure why he has never left to be with her. I just don't understand this entire scenario.

I do understand what you mean by taking responsibility for your own happiness though. I'm trying my best to come out of the fog and get on with MY life. I think I can make it. I would love for him to be around, but if he chooses not to, then it is going to hurt very much, but no matter what my life will go on. I know this much. Right now, I am 34 years old and I would like my relationship to reach a different level.

Kati

P.S. I like the term "$?%&holemates" - too funny! I'll have to remember that one.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Kati

Yep, Sarie needs 2 be aware of the fact that her H, as he grows and learns, will start 2 wonder how much the OM knows about HIM.

I deal with this all the time, because I SAW the kind of garbage my W was telling RM about me. And I've heard the garbage he told her about his xW.

It is one thing 2 say "just don't believe any of it" and another 2 deal with the knowledge that it's an expression of what the WS BELIEVES while they're in the fog. Maybe not necessarily what they believe 2 be true about the BS, but a characterization of "who they are" while in the fog. Yecch! Pitch me with a fork!

-ol' 2long

Kati,

I would love to see this article! A loving affair huh?

When I read what you posted, I instantly recognized that it must have been what the OW in my life felt towards my FWH. You see they had been friends for 20 years. H said right from the start OW had "communicated" to him that she was available. She's known him far longer than I have.

H's affair started at a time when things weren't great in our marriage and he was vulnerable. H ended the affair after several months and resumed some sort of "friendship" with OW.

Then much later he told me about the affair. The guilt was eating him alive. We didn't know about MB at the time, but did our own NC letter which H agreed to immediately.

We're 2 years post d-day. H was able to drop her pretty much without looking back. She still tries to contact him. I've listened to the messages she's left for him. It clearly was a "loving affair" for her; and she's horribly hurt he could disappear so suddenly from her life. I know she's not done with him yet.

We counseled through Steve Harley from MB, and my FWH is doing everything as he should. We actually have a better marriage then we had before the affair. We cleaned all of our emotional closets so to speak! I even like "me" better now as a result of what I've learned from this experience. Thanks for sharing this article with us!

Sue,

My H met the OW through work and they started talking and one day she invited him to see the Christmas lights and also to a New Year's Eve Party. He told her that he was married and that he could not do this. But I guess, she didn't take 'No' for an answer and kept persisting. To this day, he tells me that they never had anything physical, but I'm not really sure if I can believe it. He is very firm on this that they have never even held hands or kissed. She came into his life when his personal and work life was in turmoil and we had marital problems as well.

In the emails that he wrote to her, he did tell her that he loves her, that somehow somewhere they are meant to be together and that he will always take care of her.

I do think that they rely on each other to feel better.

While this has all been really horrible, I do have to admit that some positive has come out of it. I feel like a different person because it made me take a really good hard look at myself and I feel much better about the person that I've become after the A. I do know that I have cleaned my 'emotional closet', but I'm not so sure about my H.

I'm so glad to hear that things are working out for you and your hubby. It always inspires me to hear good endings. It may not always be easy, but it sounds like you two are on the right track and that your hubby did the right thing. It may have not been easy for him, but I admire a person like him.

Kati

My story is similar... except my H did NOT until much later become remorseful... he blamed me for his affair for a long time.

H & OW were in contact for a long time as well. They were going to WAIT FOREVER... they used to end conversations and emails w/ "our love has no expiration date."

I sometimes still don't believe that he has really chosen me over his fantasy.

We never did counseling... well... we did MC right after d-day... but it was my Hs way of letting me down slowly.

I read and heard him tell her he loved her.

BUT, he could still not let me go. He could never be mean to me or say he hated me... he couldn't even say he didn't love me...just the "I'm not 'in-love' with you"...

We still had friendship on our side. Friendship that had been tested and found true. Once their friendship was tested... once their love was tested, it crumbled. Light dissipated fog. Truth blew up the fantasy.

The affairs may last over time, they may be tested by death and arguments and misunderstandings...

...but, the loving affairs you describe never really see the light of day... they are never really tested to bear the fullness of life.

Even Sarah's relationship has not seen the light of day... that's why they can't be truthful... they know the affair would be over.

Ever have a dream from which you didn't want to awaken? It was just a dream. Dreams can't last.

Don't fear a dream.
Cali

Cali I like your post very positive. Thank you.

I still have not told my W about my A. She had no clue for a long time, and then she heard some messages on my cell phone which I quickly explained away (OW is an aspiring actress!). I don't understand how some of you can be thankful that your H or W has no clue. In some crazy way, I was kind of hoping my W would find out so I could come clean and stop living with lies. There were a lot of reasons I was having an A, and I wanted my W to know so she could meet thos eneeds instead of my getting them from the OW. But then enough was enough and I had to end the A; even thoug W never found out.

I know some WS find it difficult to think about never seeing or talking to OP again ... but remember; there will always be one person who you care about who will never get more than 50% of you. Wouldn't it be nice to give 100% to someone who gives 100% to you?

I'm going to chime in again here even though I was pretty much ignored last post.

Today was a bad day for H and I. He was off work and went through my cellphone records. He thought I was contacting OM again. I said "ring the number" He did and it was my "cellular secretary" number. I am very keen for H to "out" OM to his wife though I don't want to hurt her but I get very angry OM has got away with this scot free.

We talked a lot when he got home and I said to him "Are you "glad" you found out" because it has been SO SO painful for us, then I said "glad" is the wrong word.

He said yes, even though it's been hard he is "glad" he found out.

We just want to get away for some time together alone.

Sorry, this is a bit disjointed and should probably be on a different post. I was very upset today that he could believe I STILL can't be trusted. The point is we are together and if I hadn't told him the truth when he found out I don't think we would be.

Jenny

KiwiJ, my case is different as W is still in contact with OM. I continually check cell phone to verify contact duration/frequency etc. But I wouldn't get discouraged that your husband still checks. It says that he loves you more than it says he doesn't trust you. If apathy would set in you wouldn't like that. I check because I love my W and want to know just where her heart is. I am not anticipating a certain discovery one way or the other. I hope you get the meaning of your husbands snooping. It says love.

kiwi said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was very upset today that he could believe I STILL can't be trusted. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I noticed your d-day was just this past Oct. I am three YEARS past d-day and I still check his email and cell occasionally. It is not so much as mistrusting him now, as mistrusting MYSELF.

I still ask myself how I could have MISSED what was going on. How my husband could have removed himself so much from me to be with someone else.

Not too long ago, I retrieved his cell from the car per his request. "New Messages" was on the phone. Of course I checked. "Where are you. Are you coming tonight." was the message. My heart dropped. I checked some more and discovered it was from someone in his Sunday School class. I was so sad and disappointed in MYSELF for not trusting him... and when he noticed the look on my face, he explained the message... I told him it wasn't about him anymore... it was about me...

It is NOT just about trusting the wanderer... sometimes it is about trusting yourself and your instincts.

Cali

Hi Kati,

I apologize in advance if you've already talked about this elsewhere...is there a reason why you don't move to Plan B?

and further to your musings, while I usually hesitate to point out the following because I do not want to discourage others here, if your H and OW were going to be together, he would have left you ASAP...

while long-term As are hard to deal with (ie. to truly end contact forever) because a genuine attachment has formed (yes, these are "real" feelings), they are in no way an indication that the WS would rather be with the OP in the "real" world...please don't torture yourself further with these thoughts...

your H is a classic cake-eater...that article describes a cake-eater to a T...and Sarah is a living breathing cake-eater posting on your thread...

do not be discouraged!...learn from her instead...read and fully absorb her assertion that she loves OM...do you understand that she does not???

if she did, she would let him live life without her or choose her, one or the other...she would truly want what was best for him...instead she (and he) chooses to live a double life...what a horrible existence to lead...what an awful statement that makes about your self-worth, about your very concept of the word "love"....

all in all, the biggest lie Sarah is telling is to herself...likely the biggest lie OM is telling is to himself too...

the reason JL tries so hard (I assume) to break through to Sarah is because he can recognize a soul in jeopardy...even though someone is an expert at lying to themselves, eventually it catches up with them...one way or another...through enormous patience and caring, JL is trying to help Sarah to realize the consequences before it is too late for her to do anything other than regret her actions for the rest of her life...

does purgatory come to mind?

I, like 2long, don't know why JL is expending this effort on her but he is a really experienced fellow <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...for example, he took me under his wing, he also took Kiwi under his wing...I like me and I like her too...so I will assume that this perceptive man recognizes a good person in Sarah, struggling to get out, struggling to finally face herself, and her fear, and her dishonesty...

hope that helps you gain some perspective and understand your H a little better...

just let go of any wondering about his "real" intent...in a nutshell, his real intent is to have his cake and eat it too...and to tell himself ANYTHING he needs to in order to justify this ongoing behaviour...

find compassion for him by understanding that if he liked himself better, he'd do things, make choices, that made him feel better about himself...he's exhibiting very needy behaviour...not balanced and healthy at all...

so...this brings me back to my original point: why aren't you in Plan B? I suspect that would help you more than anything else right now...it is normally what breaks through to the cake-eating WS...awed

P.S. 2long is trying to get you to see this too I believe...the change in you would involve setting your boundary...you know about the A...what is your choice?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It really sucks to be real.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">nah Kati...it hurts to be real...but you can feel good about yourself...and that is priceless...think about it...try to change your perspective on this...you are the strong one, do you know that? do you celebrate your inner beauty? your love? your compassion? do you understand how wonderful you truly are???