Hi Cruise and Todd,
I was thinking more about your situation as I was doing my taxes, and yes they are not done yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
It crosses my mind that each of you have been in conflict for a long time and some of what I am thinking will NOT be so pleasant to comtemplate. So what I thought I might do is lay this out as STRAWMAN for both of you to sit and look at. I am sure you will see parts of what I say as perhaps close. I will exaggerate many parts for emphasis which is why this is a STRAWMAN. But, what I am thinking is that you two need to see your own roles in this marriage. THEN go talk to your counselors,people who are trained in this stuff. But the idea is if you are sensitized, what they have to say and offer will make more sense to both of you.
However, since I don't know either of you, and I don't know the WHOLE story, and never will, I want to express what I sense but without the need to be polite, so this will NOT be about you so much as a MODEL from which you can take and be sensitized by what hold some value and merit.
Does this make sense? By the way I am a lousy story teller so forgive this poor attempt. What I am going to write is a synthesis of things I have seen blended with what I have read in your stories.
First, I will respond to your post Cruise.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as the kids, he has always told me that he would be more involved with the children when they got older. He said he wasn't a "baby" person. I always felt like he needed to adjust. I also felt that we did have three babies and he needed to step up to the plate (so to speak). I still feel like that some.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its OK to feel this way, but what I will say later may make you reevaluate what has happened. But, it has been my experience that us guys while liking babies, really love kids. You know why? It is because we then have an excuse to go to the toy store and buy what WE want to play with. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You know what they say: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hopefully we will look at the POJA and discuss it because this has always been a sore spot with us.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't hope, do it. You both need it and I think it will be very hard for you to do at first, very hard.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When you mentioned that my kind of A was "SCARY" I guess I never really looked at it like that. I could definetly see where Todd would be afraid. I am not sure how to reassure him that it won't happen again. I guess my actions and the way I treat him will be what helps him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are right, but I also think how you treat yourself and view yourself will be key. Odd isn't it? But, I am thinking your focus has not been healthy so your responses have not been. I hope to illustrate this in a bit.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your insight about the way I handle things is right on. It's like build, build, build....BOOM!! I never really looked at it like that but that's exactly what I do. Thanks for helping me see that. Also, your comment about the pattern of the A and my leaving. Todd helped me understand this comment. It's soooo true.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am glad that you can see this, but the issue is why. You see you ran to OM in one case and to your Dad in the other. AND you never faced Todd in either case. In the A you kept the secret, in the leaving you sent your Dad to do what you should have done.
Are you seeing a pattern? But that is NOT the only problem I think.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We talked a lot last night and mostly about what you wrote. Thanks for your thoughts and your willingness to share your wisdom. We'd love to hear more. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The wisdom part remains to be seen, but I am glad what I said got you two talking.
So now I will start to do a core dump of my thoughts. What I want both of you to do is just read it. It is NOT meant as an accusation. It is NOT meant for either of you to defend. It is meant for you two to think about and discuss and then in so far as you come to understand YOUR issues, then what is needed is a plan to change how each of you sees the other and treats the other. What you are going to read are my thoughts about certain aspects of your relation as seen by someone who has NOT seen it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Don't you love that? It is not meant to give a complete picture of either of you or who you are.
Have you noticed how I keep trying to make sure you don't run off after reading this? There is a reason, I know I am taking a very slanted view and I am going to push certain points probably beyond the point of reason but I do NOT want either of you to get defensive. Just read, think, discuss, and tell me what you think. But, most of all start to make a list of what each of you would like the counselor to help YOU with.
Ok, here goes.
I was think last night about how men don't "get it" about having babies. We want to have children but for myself it was NOT a major drive. If it happened with the right woman, fine. I was that way about marriage as well. But, then I thought of some of the couples I know that have had to use IVF methods and others and I recall how FOCUSED they were on the process. I remember other couples with thermometers and timing cycles and how big a chore it came to be. It sounds like every guys dream to have their W's call up and say "get home NOW, it is time to ****." But the guys I knew did not find it that much fun, it had become a chore.
Then I think about a lady who would go through 7?? IVF procedures, several miscarriages, and a failed adoption. Being a guy, I thought of the money that must of cost, the time, the focus and I realized I don't get, that level of focus to have children. Then I thought further, and I realized I knew people like such a lady, they are focus on their jobs, careers, companies and the spouse complain that they are completely ignored. Mostly women complaining about their H's but on this board more and more women doing the same thing to their H's.
And I thought about this ladies H, and how the focus was not on him, or the marriage but the begetting of children.
I wondered how much input he had in the adoption process. I have 3 children, and I know there are people on this board who have twins and perhaps triplets, and while they are loved everyone knows three kids are a handful, and triplets would be worse. Then I considered that triplets with several being special needs sounds crazy, who would want that?
Then I thought this lady probably wanted more than one child, so adopted one and then an OPPORTUNITY to adopt two more came but very soon after the other adoption but in her fear of losing the chance she grabbed at it and she got two more.
I wondered if my W had been like that would I have had the courage to say NO! Being a guy and thinking of children from a financial point of view, three in college at the same time sounds pretty daunting. Having special needs kids while having just adopted another one the same age sounds like it will be very hard on the first child, in my mind not very fair to that child at all given the demand for adoption. It doesn't make sense, but could I have said NO?
I see the scene. The woman's sole focus is on having a family and having it NOW. If I loved her how could I deny her, even if I did NOT want this many children this soon. I would accept but wonder where is this leading? And what I would find out is her focus is the kids, not me, not the marriage. Well, not exactly me, I am told of my failures, and I resent it...deeply. Very deeply.
I resent losing my W, my marriage, and having no say in things at home other than doing what she wants me to do to help with the kids SHE wanted to have, but now finds overwhelming. I have control over nothing it seems. So my response is to seek control where I can and since she wanted them, she can darned well take care of them. I wonder why I said yes? I know I did love her and I did not want to lose her, and she was soooo unhappy. But she is no happier now and I am getting less than ever before. I think I will read my paper and think about this.
Now Todd and Cruise, what would you tell this guy? What would you tell this woman? I can see him withdrawing and also trying to control what he could. Why, because his W seems to call ALL of the important shots and determine what the focus of the marriage will be: her having children. I can see him wondering what the heck is going on? I can see him resenting and acting pretty childish about helping the kids. But, the problem is that no matter how or what, the kids need his help. He is NOT being the father he should be and actually he is NOT being the H he should be.
I can see the W in her focus on the kids not understanding why he is pulling back. Not understanding why he seems so rigid, yes the word controling comes to mind. She cannot see what HE feels he lost, because she feels she has finally gained what she always wanted, but she is NOT happy. Why is she not happy? I can see her getting more and more frustrated because H is being "passive agressive". He is there but he is NOT there. He will help but only after threats of "death". She cannot understand why these are NOT the good times. She has an H, has HER children, she is a MOTHER. What is missing? Well, she knows it is that lazy H of her's. If he was a good H he would help. He would not push her. He would not be making declarations about how things should and would work. He would HELP. But he is NOT. He just thinks bringing home a check is enough.
So folks what are you going to say to these people? You can see both sides now. I have laid it out each has reasons for resentment. Neither is happy, both feel cheated. The W is right the kids do need both parents and she needs help. But the H is right,it was HER choice not really his, he is just along for the ride and to provide the pay check.
So what do you think is the underlying cause of their problems. It is clear he loves her or he would NOT have gone through all of this. It is not so clear she loves him other than as a instrument to achieve her goal, being a mother. But maybe she does.
I'll leave this for you two to think about and see what you feel would solve this couples problems, or at least what kind of perspective they each should have to get some happiness and satisfaction out of their marriage. I think that as you address this, you will understand the A, the leaving, the control, and most importantly what you both might need to do, Yes with the help of a counselor.
Cruise I will say this. I don't know your family history, I don't know how you were raised, but I think your A is a natural consequence of how you handle problems and issues. THat is why it is scary. Nothing Todd can do will change the core you. Only you can change your core values and views of things and it will NOT be easy. I think you need to consider this.
Well, I must get back to writing stuff I know about. I hope that somehow this will help you two start to further you dialogue and open up to one another. Neither one of you need another does of that "poison" called resentment.
God Bless,
JL
