lots of red flags. Sorry but serving in vietnam is not an excuse to treat people like that. Everyone has something in their past that could cause them to be a-holes. I know a man who was thrown out on the streets when he was 9 years old! He had a terrible childhood full of abuse but he doesn't take that out on the world.

indy I think the biggest problem is that he isn't willing to budge at all. His attitude is that if you don't like the way he is get out! Every relationship needs work. We all have to bend now and then. It seems like he isn't going to do that.

RG, (It's long but you have definitely given me something to think about!)

Thanks for the input. Maybe I'm just looking for the answer I want but something deep inside me makes me think he just needs someone to love him and stay with him. Show him he will not be betrayed or abandoned. Someone who has his back. I know that may sound absurd to others - what is there to have his back about? - but I can't help FEELING that. And that statement about loyalty. Someone once said that about me.

He tells me I'm his world and after I look at him and tell him to get a life, he smiles. He says I have no idea how much he loves me but I think I just might. The only way to describe it is a fierce and intense.

I know exactly the day he tested me because we were playing pool and that conversation may have been interpreted by someone else as just plain strange but I got a kick out of it. Something inside me knew he was challenging me. I remember leaving him speechless a few times and he would just stop, shake his head and smile. I asked if the cat got his tongue or if he'd met his match. He said both. However, towards the end of that date he upset me and I didn't care if I ever saw him again. I told him as much but later he came back. I told him this wasn't a game. He apologized and from there on he was loyal person you speak of. Things changed from that moment on. We became very close.

Granted, like the others said, it still doesn't make his behavior right but it confirms where I thought it might stem from. He has told me some incredible stories of Nam and he doesn't break down or anything, like my uncles did when they talked about it, that's just the way it was. No big deal, just go on. But does this mean he hasn't learned to deal with what happened or are there just different ways of dealing with it? Since that time have we as a society decided that his way isn't the right way so therefore it must be wrong?

I don't want to give him too much slack. Like I said in my last post, he will probably act out again. I sensed he was very sincere when he said he would try but where do I draw the line and say enough is enough? How many chances do I give him or does he need? Where is my insurance he won't take those frustations out on me? Just because he is loyal to a fault doesn't mean I'm safe or does it? Will he become the ugly, scarey controling or mean person the others say he will? Will he tear me down? Right now he builds me up! I feel very loved, I feel appreciated and he tells me how proud he is of me. I feel he does not take me for granted as my ex did.

I understand (to the best of my abilities, having never experienced what he has) the part about being scared out of your mind while bullets fly all around you and seeing his buddies die but as the others say, is that okay to treat others as he does? That was many years ago. I don't expect the fear and anger and hurt to go away but it is a very different world from that time. Time heals most wounds or at least makes them less painful. I expect him to be a little more controled by now. Is that expecting too much?

Just out of curiosity, how does your friend treat you? Still the ******* or just to those he doesn't know or like? How loyal do you feel he is? Would or has he turned on you? Has he ever embarrassed you (or himself) in public and how did you respond? I assume from your email that you were also in Nam? If so, do you act and feel the same way. Or have you overcome it? Please tell me your experiences with him (if you are okay with that). How do you treat your significant other or strangers?

Sorry to bombard you with all these questions. I'm not trying to be mean here. It's just out of all the people who responded you seem to understand or have some insight. You don't appear to be telling me to run for my life and drop the guy like a hot potato (or a grenade). You're the only one who didn't mention the "red flags". You seem to be the only person who can relate and accept. It means a lot to me and I can't thank you enough.

Excuses, excuses..................

I was in Nam........................
I had a bad childhood............
I had a bad day at work...................
The babysitter was late................

You get the picture.
Each and every one of us is responsible and accountable for our actions.
Having a bad day or whatever the situation does NOT give one the right to criticize, belittle or demean another person.
There is a definite pattern here. A cycle of anger that allows him to blow up at others. You'll be next, I guarantee, when he learns just how strong your boundaries and limitations are set. He'll blow up at someone or something, then the tension is gone. It'll slowly start to percolate until the next blow up occurs. Eventually, it might intensify and be directed at you. Being in the courtship phase, he is doing his best to woo you and reel you in while hiding his true self.

I am not saying to run for the hills. Your decision to stay or leave is indeed that: YOUR DECISION. You must be ready to make that choice of your own will. All of us can give you advise and tell you our own experiences, however, you have to be the one to decide. Watch the patterns and take your time. His best foot forward attitude towards you will dwindle with time and his true face will come forward.

Out of curiosity, have you thought about just walking away during one of his "incidents?" Sometimes, saying nothing is the best statement of all. Walk away to show you do not tolerate his behavior. See what his reaction is or if he values your opinion enough to listen to why you walked away. Or, will he justify his behavior and make excuses? Or, will he say he does not want to discuss it, thus diverting the topic and sweeping it under the rug.

You wrote: ".....something deep inside me makes me think he just needs someone to love him and stay with him. Show him he will not be betrayed or abandoned." Wake up, Indy! You can shower all the love and attention on any person in the world, however, if there are issues that create barriers to healthy relationships, no amount of nurturing can make that issue disappear. Check out characteristics of codependency. In particular, #3, #5, #7 & #8.
http://www.recoveryresources.org/codependency.html (You mentioned above that you knew you had some CoD issues.)

Take your time............ Get some counseling.

Hugs and Peace.

GG <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Indy, no I wasn`t in nam. I was a little to young but I have quite a few high school friends that had older brothers that served. So I have been around nam vets most of my life.

He has told me some incredible stories of Nam and he doesn't break down or anything, like my uncles did when they talked about it, that's just the way it was. No big deal, just go on. But does this mean he hasn't learned to deal with what happened or are there just different ways of dealing with it?

That means he has dealt with it. Just not in the way the phscyobabble, Politically correct world says he should have.

Since that time have we as a society decided that his way isn't the right way so therefore it must be wrong?

Society to him is a big joke. Society sent him to fight a war then it turned its back on him. Society decided not to give him the resources that would have saved his buddies lives. Society decided to fight a limited engagment for a decade instead all out war for a few months. Society called him a baby killer and spat on him when he came back home.

All the nam vets I know still rebel against society because after what they went through whatever society says has to wrong.

I sensed he was very sincere when he said he would try but where do I draw the line and say enough is enough?

That is your line no one knows that but you. nam vets generally don`t lie. They tell it like it is. So he probably will try.

Where is my insurance he won't take those frustations out on me?

I really don`t sense anger in nam vets. Their behavor is more rebeling than outright anger. Not sure what you are asking here.

Will he become the ugly, scarey controling or mean person the others say he will?

Most nam vets are transparent. He is who he is. Does he drink? Ever seen him drunk? Is he mean when he`s had to much to drink or is he nice?

Will he tear me down? Right now he builds me up! I feel very loved, I feel appreciated and he tells me how proud he is of me. I feel he does not take me for granted as my ex did.

Most nam vets don`t want anyone they see as weak near them. So i doubt he would tear you down.

I understand (to the best of my abilities, having never experienced what he has) the part about being scared out of your mind while bullets fly all around you and seeing his buddies die but as the others say, is that okay to treat others as he does? That was many years ago. I don't expect the fear and anger and hurt to go away but it is a very different world from that time. Time heals most wounds or at least makes them less painful. I expect him to be a little more controled by now. Is that expecting too much?

These are the same wimps that sent him to fight their war and then turned their backs on him. He has no respect for them until they have earned it in his eyes. So he sees no real reason to treat them with respect.

Just out of curiosity, how does your friend treat you? Still the ******* or just to those he doesn't know or like?

He`s mellowed alot since the bar incident..lol.. That was 20 years ago.

How loyal do you feel he is? Would or has he turned on you?

To a fault still. Never turned on me once.

Has he ever embarrassed you (or himself) in public and how did you respond?

I`m not easily embarrassed. I don`t really see what he does in public as reflecting on me. He`s just a friend. Its probably very different for you.

I assume from your email that you were also in Nam? I

Nope never in nam. see first part.


Sorry to bombard you with all these questions. I'm not trying to be mean here. It's just out of all the people who responded you seem to understand or have some insight. You don't appear to be telling me to run for my life and drop the guy like a hot potato

No one can tell you that. I can only tell you my experince`s about nam vets. If you want to change him you probably will fail. They have been through a life altering experince. They don`t look at the world the same way people that didn`t go do. Things that embarrass you are insignificant to him.
Hope this helps you.

Indy, you wondered what a male's perspective would be on your topic. I am a male and consider his behavior inappropiate. He is compulsive and violent. If he acts this way when you are dating, have you considered how he act after you are married? He seems to be one of those controlling individuals who see things only their way. At his age, I doubt he would change his ways. Also, why has he failed in previous relationships? No too many people have the patience to deal with people who cannot control their temper.

Dear Why-me?,

Thanks for the input. I know what I have to do.

He definitely thinks things should be his way or his way is best or the only way. I took it as confidence. Now I realize it is not. I'm also picking up on how selfish he can be or that he will do things for others when he wants to. My ex was the same way. A friend told me all men are like that but I don't think that's true. I hope not!?!?!?!

He read my EN questionnaire and although he did not fill one out we did discuss it. He called me at work and said he was surprised (I could tell he was a little irritated, too.) by what I had written. He kept saying he had no idea I felt this way and I responded that I had told him several times he just didn't listen. He said he had a lot of stuff to do and hung up. (Yeah, he was irritated.)

When I got home later that evening he was in better spirits, he hugged me and kept saying he didn't realize how unhappy I was. He said I was a very sad and unhappy person. I said I wasn't unhappy, just concerned about some of the things he did and I had my own issues to deal with. (Not all of what I'm dealing with has to do with him.) He said maybe I needed to get away from him but I said no. He gave me the opportunity to walk out and I didn't take it but I have my reasons for waiting. I have a certain time ready to do this. (There is some other things I have found out and I want to be cautious.)

He then said he wouldn't let me go anyway because he knew I loved him and I had to know how much he loved me by all he has/had done for me. I didn't let this comment upset or irritate me like it normally would. He loves me the only way he can. Its not a bad thing, its just who he is; how he is. And, I also know (now)if I did leave him he would just move on. He's not going to let it get him down and he'll survive. RG has made me realize this. Oh, he will most like give me his two cents but as long as I give back the ring and once he's said his peace he will go out and find someone else. Of that I'm certain.

I'm also realizing he is lying about other things and dodging questions. He gives really irritating and lame answers like, "oh, I was between 3 and 80 when I did such and such...." I try to express my irritation with this childish behavior and press but he says I am just testing him. I tell him I'm getting really tired.

He claims the last woman that lived there (He insists she was not a girlfriend but the mother of a girlfriend who needed a place to stay?) broke into the house (after he kicked her out) and stole his stuff - spare bedroom furniture, small kitchen appliances and bathroom accessories (along with his pictures and some other personal items) and his dog. He claims he kicked her out when she made it clear she wanted more out of their relationship than just roommates. But why would she take the personal affects and his dog? Why would she have to break in? She had a key and a remote to the garage. I questioned this and he said she came back and stole these things after she gave back the keys.

This didn't fly with me so I pushed for more detail. He then told me he had to kick her out because one night he came out of the bedroom with just a towel on and she suddenly ripped the towel off and dropped to her knees to give him a BJ. (Give me a break!) He let her do it and then she went back and told her daughter, his girlfriend. The girlfriend ended the relationship (you think?) and they probably both came back and stole things just to piss him off and get back at him. (Please! They should have taken the widescreen TV and pool table, too.)

In addition, a neighbor pulled me aside one day and said she was concerned about me. She's about the same age as me and we are neighborly but not close. I asked what she meant and she told me what her live-in boyfriend SAID about the last woman who lived there. According to the neighbor this woman claimed he hit her and threatened her a few times over things like leaving laundry in the dryer. She showed him a bruise on her upper arm. The neighbor's boyfriend said he saw her wearing large sunglasses a few times. The neighbor also claims her boyfriend helped her move her things out one night while he was at work and the woman acted like she was afraid for her life. (Ironically, my guy has told me how he thinks this neighbor is a real jerk to his girlfriend and treats her like sh--.) Since this is the same neighbor he does not get along with I'm not too worried but on the other hand, why on earth would someone say that? Do they dislike him that much as to stir up trouble? Her boyfriend has hit on me and has said some things to me in front of her I found unappropriate. But why would she try to get me away from another man? Other than her word what proof do I have?

Besides, if some of this is true the woman probably was disgruntled and I'm sure there are women out there who claim they've been hit or abused so folks will look the other way while they clean a guy out.

Another neighbor asked if we were seeing each other and when I said yes she told me to be careful. I asked her what she meant and she told me what she had HEARD from the same neighbor that confronted me. I was totally shocked! I'm living in a really bad soap opera with crazy and very nosey neighbors!

Okay, that's enough of this saga for one day!

Listen to your heart. Listen to that inner voice. What is it telling you? In regards to your question whether all men are the same. I hope not as I also hope not all women are the same. I have only been with one woman in my life, my current wife. After my experiences, I reached the conclusion that I would never consider another relationship because of all the pain that it can bring, but that is only my opinion and I think there are women who honor and respect their husbands like God wanted.
As far as your partner is concerned. There are people who are very controlling and want you to do everything according to their whims. They may appear very sure of themselves, but the reality is totally the opposite. My opinion is that they can be very jealous and can see rivals where there are nono. You can be very respectful, devoted and loving, but they still get jealous and worried about anyone. However, they are more likely to violate any commitments and step out of the boundaries of a committed relationship. Again, this is their own insecurities working since they fall for anyone who pays attention to them.

Just thought I'd but some closure to my situation and give ya all a few good laughs! When I look back over all the email traffic I wonder where my head was. Uh, please don't answer that! I'm pretty sure I know where it was. I've found it since then! Thank you.

My suspicions got the better of me so I started snooping around. I wanted to see for myself and I was starting not to care. I found myself feeling bitter and I knew I was hurting. I found documents he had stashed out in the garage and after going through them I found out that he lied about his income, his debt and his first marriage. (He had been married to the first wife for 17 years and he had two other kids! He told me it lasted less than a year and there was no offspring from that venture.) I confronted him on this and he said that he didn't feel I needed to know about those things because with him when some thing is in the past, it remains there. Although I tend to agree with that the problem was he had lied about it to begin with. He could have just said one or two things and then said he didn't want to discuss it anymore. Instead he told totally different stories and then kept the lies going. Then I realized something he had just told me wasn't adding up and I tried to clarify that - dates he had given were not adding up. He demanded that the questions stop. I may not be the brightest crayon in the box but I'm not dull. My math was a little off (I had to check it later!) but it was close and things weren't right. Damn, I wish I was faster! I should have used my fingers. I could have called him on that right then and there.

I didn't even want to look at him or be around him. I was glad he had to work and be away from home. I went into immature overdrive and started thinking how I didn't want his nasty ol' wrinkly a-- touching me. Maybe I'd get lucky and he'd choke on this partial or something. (No offense to the more mature crowd. I really harbor no ill feelings toward you.)

Then one evening when I came home I looked over at his motorcycle which he has always told me was a restored HD. My MC was standing right next to it and something about the two bikes caught my eye. Something someone had told me about the difference between Harleys and other bikes. Something about it seemed strange to me and after looking at it closely for a few minutes I realized I had seen something on this bike before but it didn't go with the brand of bike. I had seen a picture or something. I dug around in the tool box and found the manual for his MC. Right on the front cover was the exact same bike. I slapped myself with it. (Not hard, I didn't want to hurt myself!) The only difference was that the symbols or whatever you call it were missing from his bike. (Okay, now you can laugh because I sure did.) It was an altered Yamaha Road Star! (Is there a phone ringing? Hello!) I just stood there and laughed at myself. I thought I AM the village idiot. I have believed everything that man has told me and everything has been a complete lie to include the friggin' bike! But what's so pathetic is that everything I needed to confirm or deny the truth was also right there. I thought this might bring me to tears but why waste the water? I just felt numb. I feel like such a fool. Okay, truth be told, my ego and my pride were taking a very large bashing. This is very humbling to admit. (I started laughing because at one time he had said he wanted to buy a custom bike, a chopper, and we could sell my Honda and he would give me his Harley. I got so excited thinking how cool it would be to be on the road riding my Harley next to my really cool man on his chopper. Oh, my Gawd! I am so lame! I almost lost my beautiful 2001 Honda Shadow to a reworked piece of ----! Well, you get the idea.)

The next day I told him that I could no longer be in a relationship with him because he had lied so much. He contends that he never lied to me but that I made too many assumptions (hum? Looking back, that could be true!) and he just didn't tell me everything. I looked at him and said to me it didn't matter. A 1/2 truth or not telling me all the information or not coming clean was still a lie in my eyes. Why do men do this to me?!?! (Maybe 'cause you lend yourself to it, honey.)

Side note: My ex-husband used to lie to me about really insignificant stuff, too, and I'd catch him all the time. (Back then I was a lot faster.) I used to tell him, "Look, I am not your mother. I am not going to punish you for doing something. Yeah, I might have a little fit initially but once I calm down and think it over I get over it or I try to work a compromise. It usually happens within an hour. I don't hold grudges and I try to be fair. What are you afraid of? What really makes me crazy is when you feel you can't be honest with me. Why?" I never got an answer then, either. Ah, ha.....I think there's a pattern here....Hum????? Yes. I get it, please don't point it out.

There were too many unanswered questions and things were so confusing that I had lost my trust in him. If you can't trust someone, you have nothing. What's that saying about it takes a bigger or stronger foundation to make a castle than it does an outhouse. Great. I was building the world's biggest crapper! I'm pretty sure this was gonna be delux, too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

At this point I just didn't care anymore so I even told him I got so paranoid that I grabbed his cell phone one night and started going through the numbers and looking at the names wondering who this or that person was. (Instead of having names he had things like "T" or "O" or a single digit.) I felt like I was loosing my mind and I was being ridiculous myself. That was enough. (Drama queen time over!)

I asked him why he lied and why he thought so little of me? I said he should have respected me enough to tell me the truth about things and let me decide for myself if I could live with it or not. Not gloss things over or avoid giving me information. I really DO try to be a fair person. Did I mention that? (I'm a Libra, it comes naturally.)

I then asked why he kept me around for or why he tried so hard to keep me in his life. (And, for that mature crowd out there, don't even say it. A cute - and obviously dumb - thing on his shoulder. Yes, it HAD occurred to me. Ding, ding! Score one for you.) He said because he loved me. (I sure as heck know it wasn't cause of the poon tang. What if any there was of that was mediocre at best. I even sacraficed good you-know-what! WHAT WAS I THINKING? Oh, that's right, I wasn't...) I said how could he love me if he lied? He said he just wanted to protect me from all the bad things he had done in his life. I said that was just an excuse. I wasn't his child (although I well could be!) and he didn't need to protect me from anything. He needed to respect me enough to let me make my own decisions and stop hiding behind his obvious insecurities. At this point he said I was too immature for him and to get out. (NOT a problem!)

So, there you have it, folks! It's done, it's over and life goes on! Ta, dah! I may be slow but I do figure it out eventually. Actually, I thought about it and decided I'm not that bad. (Thanks to GratefulGranny. That co-dependency stuff hit home. I've already studied it once before. Momentary lapse of self worth. I'm over it now. Back on track. Feeling good.) Besides, I still turn a few heads and not just the "old" ones, either! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> My ex used to tell me I was getting frumpy and I dressed too matronly so I believed I was ugly and aging. Not anymore! I don't have the 20-something bodacious bod I used to have but the ol' girls ain't hanging that far south (yet) and the back 40 still has a little spring. All the curves are still there! I also remembered I'm a lot smarter (& clever!) than I give myself credit for. I made it through 4 years of college with high honors, clawed myself up to a rather high position in my job, changed the locks on all the doors the day my ex left, over come my fear of heights by bunging jumping, and managed to learn how to keep my MC upright - most of the time. I've worked hard and I CAN take care of myself. Really! (Thank God for post-it notes.) There's still a whole lot of neat things out there to experience (besides men, go figure) and I've got just the smarts and energy to do it. When the time's right that special someone will eventually come along (maybe he's slow, too!) and will love and appreciate me for who I am and won't lie about it either.

Thanks for "listening". God Bless and good luck! I wish you all the best!