ss:

I ac2ally brought one with me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

And I still owe you a copy of "The Cactus Sandwich".

-2long

Q, you said -

She replied that it looked reasonable, but how could she work on our M if when she needs 2 figure herself out?

Well this is where I think her IC and working with Penny would be a good match. I DO think she needs to work on herself - I'm glad to hear she realizes it. She owes you something too however. You've been working at this for 2-long all by yourself.

I'm sure Penny can complement the IC as long as he doesn't violate her principles!! Fingers are crossed for you!

Thanks, CSue!

I had dinner at the house this evening. We were going 2 go 2 our favorite mexican restaurant, but she realized that it was May 5th, and it would probably be 2crowded!

I asked her 2 a "date" 2morrow, though, and she accepted! (party at work, then dinner afterward). Then, we're going 2 the swap meet on Sa2rday with my D and her fiance. I patched a 2ple of holes in the wainscotting while she made dinner this evening. It was nice and low-key. I think Penny's plan may be working already. But we're both a little raw from our arguments of a week and a half ago... ...heck, from the past 13 years!

"Small steps, Sparks. Small steps" -Contact

-ol' 2long

Party was okay, but no sparks left. I shouldn't be expecting any.

Contact with RM resumed when I left. She was concerned about how he felt after I sent him the email.

I feel like the Rodney Dangerfield of broken marriages.

Things aren't all that bad, though. I've got my health.

-ol' 2long

2L,

What? She was concerned about how HE was doing after receiving your e-mail??? I'm speechless.

CSue:

That's right. She doesn't care about my feelings, even if she says she does.

-2long

2L

What are you going to do?

What I'd LIKE 2 do right now is send a scathing email 2 Rat Meat and his coworkers.

I have no respect for the man whatsoever. I asked him, rather politely, 2 STAY AWAY from my W and son when they were there, and he had the gall 2 print my email and give it 2 her. THEN, he ignored my request that he stay out of contact when she emailed him. All he had 2 do was ignore her.

And yet, she wouldn't mind if I moved back in2 one of the rooms in our house. I'd do that, because where I'm staying isn't as comfy as my own home, plus it's inconvenient having 2 always go over there 2 deal with the contractor. But our relationship is in the toilet and looks like it's going 2 stay there.

In all, though? It's just another bump in this insulting 28-month long journey I've been on. And I really don't have a clue what I'm going 2 do.

-2long

Lots of questions come to mind, but maybe I will just make this comment.

Little can be done to improve your marriage while there is still contact between your W and RM.

You know that plan B is used to get the WS off the fence.

We know why that would be difficult - but I begin to wonder if it would be easier than where you are now.

You can always come see me this weekend. Be glad to put you up for a couple of days.
I'll email you.

SS

Well, it was an interesting weekend.

I've told this so many times elsewhere, and I haven't gotten feedback yet from Penny, so I'll just summarize here:

♣ We went 2 get hardware for the house Sa2rday. On the drive back, my W wanted 2 talk R talk. SHE brought up all the sensitive stuff, counseling, coaching, things Penny said 2 her, things I said that weren't clear, what I SHOULD have said...

♠ she said I should have said "I don't want you 2 contact RM", when she remembers me saying that it's up 2 her 2 do what she wants, and that when I moved out, particularly, she figured it was "okay" 2 talk 2 him again.

♣ So, when she said that, I said "Okay, I'm saying it now. I want you not 2 contact RM anymore, unless you have enthusiastic agreement from me before you make contact." And she said she would stop for now while we work on figuring out if we can be friends before we figure out whether we want 2 be married. I told her that it was Penny's idea that I ask for that (ac2ally, Penny thought that she could convince my W 2 do that, but they haven't talked on the phone since the first session a week or so ago - was it that recently? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ).

♠ So, we've got sort of an agreement that neither one of us is making any long-term guarantees about our marriage (which was "over" 13 years ago, only I didn't know it, so we need 2 start over if we decide we want it).

♣ She's starting a new full-time job 2morrow, but at best her income will be about half of mine. So, if we DV, she can't afford 2 stay in our house, unless I'm willing 2 leave and keep helping with the payments. I have been only inclined 2 keep it if she were 2 stay in it with the kids and I maintained a financial stake in it - and only because she doesn't want me 2 sell it. She'd like me 2 keep it and live in it if we DV, but we'd have 2 keep her financially involved in order for that 2 work, because I won't buy her out of it even if I could afford 2. I'd rather finish it and sell it if we DV, so I could accept a position out of state if one's available. We could both probably retire on the equity in the house if it were finished.

♣♥♠ SO: I moved back in2 the upstairs bedroom so I could be at the house 2 deal with the contractors and get work done on it in my spare time myself. I will let my W decide whether she wants 2 coach with Penny, or find an IC that meets more frequently than once a month (no kidding, her 2nd IC appointment with Kaiser doesn't happen for another 2 weeks!). No more dilly-dallying. I will ask Penny whether I should tell my son the whole truth anytime soon. I am reminded of SC's sitch a year or so ago, when he moved back after an attempted plan B, then DV'd a few months later. Importantly, he moved back without expectations for his W 2 do anything, and so it was just his decision as 2 whether he could live with her choices or not, and he chose not 2. I'm going 2 see what my W decides 2 do, and try not 2 hang my life on whatever she chooses. But I will decide what I want 2 do based on whether she makes positive growth steps of her own. If I decide 2 DV, it'll likely take 6 months-1yr (what is the timeframe for CA?), and it'll probably take longer than that 2 get the house finished. I bet I'll be making my decision in the next few months, one way or the other.

We worked on the house 2gether yes2rday, after my D and her fiance made mothers' day breakfast for us (and I gave my W an orchid). It was a good day. Just the right level of exhaustion, but not so much I couldn't move this morning! ...during dinner, my W said it was the best mothers day she can remember. That floored me, as it didn't feel particularly different, just nice. But it was nice 2 hear her say she felt that way.

No expectations,
-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>If I decide 2 DV, it'll likely take 6 months-1yr (what is the timeframe for CA?)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If both of you agree on everything and no dragging, after 6 months it would be done. That is change of status ... then there is CS & SS agreement ... every 6 months either party could drag the one one back for adjustment if there is changes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . GET UNMODIFIEDABLE AGREEMENT otherwise it will be never ending story.

-rh-

Interesting....

Well, there you have it!

I think my W would agree 2 be agreeable. If anything, she's sounded like she's more inclined 2 "punish" herself with a settlement strongly in my favor. I'm the one that doesn't want that.

Pepper: Interesting in what way? Any thoughts?

-ol' 2long

2long,

I forgot clarify ... I assumed that #2&#3 could be settle like you say.

Dv consists of
1. Status Change
2. Debt & Asset Divisions
3. Custody arrangment (if applicable)
4. SS (if applicable)
5. CS (if applicable)

You only need to get the first one to marry someone else legally ...

alright 2long....I'm gonna stumble along here...but I want to clarify that I don't understand anymore...

1. what YOU are doing
2. what YOU want to happen...

BUT I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer...so I am going to ask you some questions...but I am not confronting you with them...I am really trying to understand your position in all of this.....

Here's what I don't understand...

why did you move out??
and why did you move back in...?

Has she even at this point committed to NO contact with ratmeat.....
HAS she...?????!!!!!

she said I should have said "I don't want you 2 contact RM", when she remembers me saying that it's up 2 her 2 do what she wants, and that when I moved out, particularly, she figured it was "okay" 2 talk 2 him again.

damned if you do and damned if you don't....

tell her you don't want her to contact him...
then tell her you will contact him YOURSELF to tell him.....seriously...why not??

And she said she would stop for now while we work on figuring out if we can be friends before we figure out whether we want 2 be married.

I don't understand this either....

Do WE need to figure out whether WE want to be married....

cause I thought you had pretty much for the past what year or so figured out that YOU want to be married...

claim your marriage 2long...
define here and now exactly what YOU want in a mate....she can decide if she is up for the task of fidelity and loyality or not...here and now....not work on it...
not buy more time...

you moved out...she used it as "time to think"
you move back in...she just bought more "time" to "see if WE can be friends"
what do any of those things mean...nothing really....

hey 2long...i pretty much learned how to be friends in grade school....you did also...
you have been her friend....
you have done the work....

so we need 2 start over if we decide we want it).

which comes first...
deciding if you want to be married..
or working at being married....
and how long can that drag on.....

No expectations,
I think you have expectations
I think you deserve expectations
I think you need expectations.
I think you should voice your expectatiosn....


I hate this post...
but I really don't know what to say to you...
cause I don't see YOUR plan...
I don't see what YOU want
I don't see actions to get YOU where you want to be...

I really am nothing more than a pain in the a$$ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ARK

ark:

good stuff:

"why did you move out??
and why did you move back in...?"

I moved out because we were snipping cruelly at one another over little comments or actions. I said "we're just hurting each other. I need 2 remove myself so we don't keep doing that." And Penny suggested we stay in contact and try "dating" for a few weeks. I moved back in because she did agree 2 NC without my enthusiastic agreement, which was a compromise idea suggested by Penny, 2 get helpful communication going.

"Has she even at this point committed to NO contact with ratmeat.....
HAS she...?????!!!!!"

She says she has. For now, at least, as described above. Now, I have 2 assume that she's making the effort 2 be trustworthy. Problem is I don't trust her because she's demonstrably untrustworthy. But I will give her the chance 2 try 2 establish some credibility (oddly, she does try in ways. Like, she recently changed her cell phone service and asked that the bill be put on our house account - so that I could see that she doesn't call him. She seldom did anyway, but I appreciate the effort).

"tell her you don't want her to contact him...
then tell her you will contact him YOURSELF to tell him.....seriously...why not??"

I did say that. Na2rally, she got upset when I said I would email him again. I still may do so, but not without Penny's approval. After all, if she really intends not 2 contact him while we work on our relationship, maybe I should leave it alone as a show of good faith. Not that I haven't been doing that for the 27 months prior 2 my first email 2 him.

"Do WE need to figure out whether WE want to be married....

cause I thought you had pretty much for the past what year or so figured out that YOU want to be married..."

Yep, only it's been 28 months since I found out and made my decision 2 try 2 repair our marriage.

"claim your marriage 2long...
define here and now exactly what YOU want in a mate....she can decide if she is up for the task of fidelity and loyality or not...here and now....not work on it...
not buy more time..."

Hm... problem is that right now I would get a "no" if I were 2 make such claims. And I have lost the desire 2 "fight" for my marriage after all this time. I would rather sit back and observe her next actions objectively. Honestly? I don't believe she'll do anything fundamental 2 save our M - she doesn't want it, or it's so far downrange for her that it'll be far 2late for me 2 care when she decides she does. She says that RM isn't interested in another R, and neither is she. And yet she can't imagine never contacting him again. Considering it's not that "important" 2 her, our M must be pretty unimportant as well. I'm not very impressed by that priority order.

"you moved out...she used it as "time to think"
you move back in...she just bought more "time" to "see if WE can be friends"
what do any of those things mean...nothing really...."

Probably. I'm waiting on a response from Penny.

"which comes first...
deciding if you want to be married..
or working at being married....
and how long can that drag on....."

Good 2uestions. Guess I've been deciding 2 be married, even in the face of such opposition 2 the notion. How long can that drag on? Now? Not 2long.

"No expectations,
I think you have expectations"

I do.

"I think you deserve expectations"

Even one of my favorite "unconditional love" authors, Greg Baer, says that we have a right 2 expect things from our spouses, because marriage is a conditional agreement. But do I even have a spouse at this time? except on paper? She doesn't think we've been married for years. Coincidentally, by her own admission, the M ended when the A started. Wish I had really known, but I can't change the past and neither can she. So, do I deserve expectations now? I still think so, and I will think about whether I will try 2 keep them, or just let it all go and see what happens in a reasonable period of time - months, not years.

"I think you need expectations."

I've sure been needy. In that area, in particular.

"I think you should voice your expectatiosn...."

I did. I didn't put all the details in that last post. 2 specific. But because she didn't seem 2 "receptive" 2 my expectations, I choose 2 let go and detach some more. Let her demonstrate what she wants and is willing 2 do 2 get there. For a while.

"I hate this post...
but I really don't know what to say to you...
cause I don't see YOUR plan..."

Waiting for advice from Penny, but tentatively:
*keep making myself a better individual
*keep working at my exciting job (and focus on focusing!)
*file for divorce within the next several months

"I don't see what YOU want"

I want 2 be happy, loving, loved, caring, cared for,... and RICH! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (and these days, compared 2 the other things I've been trying 2 achieve, that doesn't seem so farfetched anymore!!)

"I don't see actions to get YOU where you want to be..."

Physically, I want 2 be in my home until I can figure out what 2 do with it that causes the minimum upset 2 my family - all of them. My D is 25 and getting M'd 2 a Welshman in a year or so. They need some stability in our overall sitch while they get his citizenship and on their feet. She's living in our guest house, which is far less expensive than an apartment would be. I need 2 hold on2 the property for at least another year and a half 2 get it all done anyway. My S is 17. He'll be old enough 2 choose where he wants 2 live by that time, but he needs a lot more time from me and my W 2 get himself organized... he's bright but bored in HS, and gets As and Fs. We're not sure what he's going 2 do or when he's going 2 take schooling seriously. He should go on 2 college and even get an advanced degree, he's that smart. These are "integrity-related" things that *I* want 2 do because they are who I am, not because I'm stuck in a broken marriage. Does that make sense? What I want 2 do for myself is outlined above, but includes specific things like going places interesting for weekend camping trips (which we haven't done for a very long time, at least not more than a 2ple times a year at most), work on my hobbies (or get rid of the one's I'm not so interested in anymore), and someday have a meaningful, committed relationship with someone.

"I really am nothing more than a pain in the a$$"

You and me both, then! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' 2long

<small>[ May 10, 2004, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

2L,

What's different now than in the last 28 months is that you finally have a coach on board to help you navigate through this.

With Penny as a coach, you'll make the best decision at the right time - no matter what it is. It sure would be great if your wife would agree to coaching too.

But even if she doesn't, your coaching is about you regardless. I believe to date you have made decisions based on Penny's advice right?

Lucky:

Pretty much, though I didn't consult with her before I moved out nor when I moved back... ...I hope I'm not in trouble! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I'd like my W 2 coach with Penny, 2. But I can tell that she's worried that Penny will try 2 get her 2 "save the marriage" or go NC on RM or something. I tried 2 explain 2 her that not all Ms should be saved, and that Penny will likely focus on things that will be most helpful 2 my W for helping herself first and 4most. YES, she's about saving marriages. But she could do a lot better at answering my W's burning 2uestions than I can.

We'll see.
-2long

Here's a 2uote my buddy SC sent me:

"How would I respond to being attacked if I believed all attack is a call for help?"

food4though. I think.

-2long

2long...

here's my thing...
whenever a crisis...whenever a conflict...I need a plan...
I NEED a plan...

I try to stay open and flexible as needed...but I need a plan to help ground and guide me....
but that's me....

at first I thought you move home and try some 180's....be a little less available...a little less directly accountable....a little mysterious....


then I thought..step up your plan A...be really upbeat...positive...charming as always...engaging....

but every plan I see you doing in the home with her...leads to her just turning it around on you....
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

but then you said you are going to file in the next few months...

would she ever move out...
could you pat her on the head and tell her goodbye for now....

and give you the opportunity to plan b...
(promise no frying pans for you....)

I'm really curious what she would do without you to "blame" ...and all that....without the official divorce in the process to spend her attention on...

I know you don't like plan b...
I know you don't think it would work..and so maybe you never would do a perfect plan b...
but can you cut her a little closer to the bone...
(God that sounds mean)....
and i hope my meaning isn't lost...

she has no consequences....
ever...

when i was younger our youth group used to spend summers in the Appalachian mountains working with impoverished families...
we'd give silly awards at the end for funny things that went on and had coveted standard ones...

The easy rider award went to the kid that was always willing to jump in the car/truck and run for supplies...the work was hard and hot...and a trip down the mountain to get more tar or wood or wall-board usually meant twenty minutes of respit with the AC on and a cold drink....

your wife reminds me of the Easy Rider personna...avoid the hard work....any way you can....

we also had the coveted deadwood [censored] award..
that went to the person who did NO work.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
hhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

2long...I hope you know I am not trying insult your wife...not even giving up on her....
and perhaps there is NOTHING you can do...to assist in illiciting change....

There is always hope...

ark