IMO, it really wasn't about sex Doobie, it was about feelings and perceptions. It was about Cwmac's feelings that he needs to know the truth about sex with the OM from his wife.

It was about the WS's responding to help him by sharing their feelings and perceptions about the sex with the OM.

It was also about a betrayed spouse being triggered by reading the UNILATERAL description of that sex as being TERRIFIC and speaking up about it.

Of course, the vicarious information he was seeking is essentially pointless considering none of the WS's are his own wife. He needs to get THAT information from HER.

The three WSs never intended to hurt anyone with their descriptions and have taken the time and effort to apologize for any hurt they caused. They were trying to be helpful.

Is it possible that Cwmac's inexplicable rage had to do with being triggered by the interruption in finding the truth, mirroring his home situation? Or is his temper a reason why his wife won't tell the truth?

Do you still think this thread is just about sex? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> KB

I was just about to reply to cwmac and KB you got there before me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The question cwmac, now the fur and feathers have stopped flying, is has this helped at all?

Your main worry seems to be that you are not being told the entire truth. What truth are you really looking for? I've said in a previous post my H doesn't want details - he's got a pretty fair idea of what they would be.

He wants me to be there for him now and in the future and the reassurance that I'll always be there. I can give him that.

By the way how do you know so much about Aust/NZ? You mentioned ANZAC day - it is our day of rememberance for WWI and WWII, in fact all servicmen in all wars. In Australia and NZ we hold dawn services and lay wreaths on our war memorials. ANZAC means Australian and New Zealand Army Corps and was first used I think during WWI. Help me out here Anyname, I think that's right. History lesson over. Back to marriage building.

One more thing, I'm not sure what Doobie meant about the sex talk - I don't know if I can talk about sex in an adult and rational way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> My biology teacher tried way back when and was faced with a bunch of giggling teenagers.

Jenny

Knewbetter,

You said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You would have understood this if you had bothered to read her other posts.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right when someone says something like this...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You maybe should imagine the very worst, that he had a bigger [censored] and he was great in bed and he was everything you aren't. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">in their very first post on a personal thread I should take the time to research all of her last 52 posts. I can't believe you said that. Her comments whether tongue in cheek or not were inappropriate and not appreciated by me. Do you think this post really helped my recovery??? Answer that, Knewbetter!!

Yes I can read I knew she was the BS and that she was talking about a Revenge Affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The moderator edits belong on your posts, not hers.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No I wasn't saying that the moderators should edit her. I was saying they hadn't edited me for my questions or the FWSs for their responses.

I came to this site to work out my issues. I asked questions. The "thought Nazis" however want to tell me how to think and what questions to ask. They want to tell the FWSs who answered my questions in a direct manner that they shouldn't.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...that your W's primary motivation in not talking to you about it, is her belief that it will hurt you more than it will help you... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Dont' want to hurt you" or "I don't remember" = " I (FWS) feel too much guilt to be honest with you. Even if you need this info in order to heal , let go and start to recover, I don't care because it causes me too much pain to discuss it.

IMHO, just more of the same selfish behavior that was witnessed during the affair!! So since my W fails to see the need to tell the truth and because female BSs feel idignant I guess I'll never know the answer.

Well unfortunately the "moral Gestapo" have won. The three FWSs will now probably never want to post an honest answer to a direct question that a male BS asks in order to understand what his FWS was thinking. I never want to post again either.

So all my unanswered questions will remain that way.

cwmac

cwmac, don't go. As Mrs cwmac is unlikely to post here I can understand exactly where you're coming from.

Our stories are all SO similar (BS and WS)that you are very likely to get answers that will help you. But, I guess we're all unique as well. I've come to your story a bit late. You've probably already said this a hundred times but how is your recovery going generally?

Jenny

Eeek the time to edit messages has really been changed!

So I'll start again.

cwmac, your w's A sounds more like mine than any of the other ladies you've been talking to.

My truth is that I was very emotionally connected to OM. I think you don't believe your w when she says the SF wasn't that good. I think a lot of WS's do say this so they don't hurt their spouse but in my case it was true (as we all now know). But as I said to H it was very intense because of the emotional bond I (thought)I had with OM. After reading the "Tempted Woman" post it came to me in a blinding flash that "ratmeat" was not all I thought he was.

What I'm saying is I think you are getting the truth but she is probably playing down the emotional connection so she won't hurt you. WS's just don't want to go there. I read on here what some WS's say to their spouses and I think "how could you say that to another person?" My feeling was that any details couldn't be worse than the fact I had the A in the first place. H wanted timeframes so he could work it all in his mind. I would have given H any detail he wanted if it helped him - which is why I want to help you.

The intensity of my feelings for OM were what really hurt my H. He hates the whole thing of course but said to me that the fact I kissed someone else made him want to cry. Note, not had sex with, but kissed.

Jenny

<small>[ May 05, 2004, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

Cwmac, I'm not sure which post of Anyname's you are referring to and also not sure what point you are trying to make with it? Was this addressed to you? If so, no it can't be considered particularly helpful but isn't this along the lines of what you are thinking anyway for lack of other info? I'm not here to play to play defense attorney for Anyname but could you explain?

I believe your reaction to her original post on this thread is more the problem here and bears further scrutiny.

I think we realize what it is that you are seeking but the answers you received were not in any way relevant to your recovery in the sense that you are not married to these women, you are married to your own wife. HER EXPERIENCE IS HER OWN. How other women experienced sex in their situation is totally beside the point.

I truly do understand your motivation in asking the question and I'm sorry you can't get that right now from your wife, but asking me or any other WS on board at this point what sex was like with OM is IRRELEVANT to your personal situation. I suppose it might be relevant IF she gave you the same glowing answers you received here and you were able to understand that the facts don't have to interfer with a successful marital recovery as evidenced by Lisa, Kiwi and Mrsx. Unfortunatly, you are not at that place yet.

Anyname gave you a mental picture of her revenge affair, (the one she hasn't had, BTW) and you are dealing with mental pictures of your own. Can you understand and acknowledge why reading about the WW's excellent extramarital sexual experiences bothered her? Her post saying imagine the worst ect. totally bothered YOU and with good reason! Why should it be any different for her? Why flame her for bringing it up?

As for necessary edits on your posts, I was refering to the F*** yous, and A**hole parts. Come on, no one is telling you how to think unless it's to correct fog or to help you see something they think you need for recovery. No one is telling you what questions to ask. You do need to be told to be more respectful when you disagree with someone. (!)

It was the descriptions that you were given in reply to your question that were troublesome to Anyname and the women involved realized that and they were all sensitive enough to apologize for the triggers they inadvertently brought up. They never meant to hurt anyone.

They are all incredible, IMO. I've watched them move out of the fog and really work at applying themselves to rebuilding their marriages. I've watched their doubts and fears and triumphs. I have great respect for that and I know you do too. It was nice of you to come to their defense but they were able to put themselves in Anyname's shoes as a BS and that speaks volumes for their recovery!

The quote about your wife's primary motivation was not mine but I will address it. She may or may not feel guilty, she may or may not be embarrassed. She may or may not want to tell because she'd have the same answer as the other WSs. She may or may not want to tell because you have anger management issues. We don't know, you don't know. She knows and she's not telling for whatever reasons. Give it more time. FYI, I told ALL and he's told me he wished I'd left out a few details. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Quote from Cwmac:
IMHO, just more of the selfish behavior that was witnessed during the affair!! So since my wife fails to see the need to tell the truth and because female BSs feel indignant I guess I'll never know the answer.

"Indignant BSs" are not the reason your question is unanswered.Your wife's failure to tell the truth is why you don't have your answer. Read this twice!

If you want to know what your wife is really thinking you must ask HER. Patience, dear Cwmac.......Don't run off in a huff, hang in there all right? Best, KB

Knewbetter, GOSH I like you.

I KNOW I've asked this before - how did you get so smart?

Jenny

Truth is I'm a TOTAL IDIOT, stupid, stupid me had an affair. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Lucky, blessed, GRATEFUL me has a wonderful, forgiving husband. (and you guys on MB!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

:::::Right when someone says something like this....

quote:You maybe should imagine the very worst, that he had a bigger [censored] and he was great in bed and he was everything you aren't.

Do you think this post really helped my recovery??? Answer that, Knewbetter!!

cwmac, Look, you had asked a completely fair question. Blessed time's response was an example of an excellent reply. (she said: OS, back entry, on top, passonate kissing) - in relation to the bigger picture of the WW's state of mind during the A? She didn't give you a personal account of what she did, and nor should she share that with anyone, but her BS. Why do you find it so hard to understand that personal details are not for the general consumption? They a great source of shame and remorse and should be treated as such.

I feel like the school monitor who's broken up the naughty children behind the toilet block. Btw, It's fun police, not thought police, in this case.

Jenny, you are aware that you went too far? You gained a lot of respect from me for accepting that. (My H's comments about your unedited reply was: Hey, she forgot to mention what they did with vegetables! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) I do see the funny side of this, believe it or not.

cwmac, Here's a brain teaser for you. From the beginning of this flame, I spotted a very obvious argument you could have used in your own defense. I can't believe that you haven't noticed it. Some time in the future I'll tell it to you, and you are going to feel real p'd with yourself.

do we have to be so hateful over this?

anyname

I think this has been blown out of proportion.

I never thought that I would spend so much time actually caring about the marriages of total strangers, but I do care! Maybe because I can really empathize with the people here. Does anyone besides me get that sick feeling in their stomach when reading things like "he left, he's with her right now!"? It throws me right back to how I felt on that awful day. I am pulling for ALL of you! I hope that all of the WS pull their heads out of their ***** and give 100% to the marriage, and I hope that all the BS can let go of the pain and build a better marriage (I hope the same for myself)

anyway, (is it anyWAY or anyHOW?) I understood what you were trying to say, you just thought that telling a BS how great sex was with the OP was hurtful and unnecessary. I also understood that the WS' were just trying to explain what was true for THEM. cwmac, *I* was trying to show you that none of their stories has any bearing on yours. My own story is far different from theirs and your w's may be too.

There seem to be some universal truths about affairs *fog talk* re-writing the marital history, things the OP says. But sex is different from one affair to the next. Not everyone can be "the best ever".

I worry much more about how he felt about his OW than I do about whether or not sex was great. I really doubt sex was better with her than it is with me. I know he wouldn't tell me if it was, but I really don't worry about it. I just KNOW that sex is better with me! I know every inch of his body, I know what he likes and doesn't like. I have had sex with him thousands of times! If one chef makes you dinner 350 times this year and another makes you dinner 15 times, chances are pretty good that the best dinner you had will have been made by the chef that cooked more of them.

of course sex isn't filled with passion every time, but the times it has been it was very very good. I just doubt anyone could compete with that. I know that no one has been able to come close to it for me. There's something to be said for familiarity, it allows us to know exactly what works and what turns our partner on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My H's comments about your unedited reply was: Hey, she forgot to mention what they did with vegetables!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Hmmmm, now let's see......

Do you know I had absolutely no idea my post would cause such an uproar.

Did no one notice that I said H was far superior in EVERY way.

Anyname, what part of Oz? I've been to Sydney many, many times. My sister lived in Sydney for years and years.

Jenny

Wow, I go out of town for 2 days and this thread goes haywire. Just wanted to put my two cents in.

cwmac: I agreed with you in your initial response to anyname. (At the time, I thought it was a little harsh, but true. Probaby didn't need the f u comment, but...oh well.)

A few points that I've gleaned from this thread. It was my interpretation/understanding that cwmac was trying to verify what he had read in the book, Tempted Woman, by asking these questions. (A legitimate request in lieu of not recieving what he felt to be the truth from his W.) I too have/am going through this turmoil. While not specifically helping our situations, it helped me in some of the things I was/am going through. Of course everyone's situation is different, but I could see cwmac trying to 'work thru this' by asking these questions.

Also, I think it was knewbetter who made the comment, something like, "cwmac, is it possible that you aren't getting the answers you're looking for from you W because of your temper?" (Maybe not that verbatim, but something to that effect.) I know for myself, I've really had to withhold certain aspects of my rage for my situation, so as to avoid love busters. cwmac, in your case maybe your W doesn't feel safe answering those questions yet. You'll have to work on creating that situation. It's also possible that we've been told the truth, but we've been betrayed so badly and don't believe it OR that we may never hear the truth.

Have you heard the saying "Life's not fair"? I think that's very true in our situations. We weren't the ones that were unfaithful, but we have to deal with it. It seems the WS was/isn't being punished for what they did, but if you want to recover your M or make it better there are somethings you have to leave behind (and I'm not saying that this is your case cwmac just some BS's).

<small>[ May 06, 2004, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Recovering H ]</small>