</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One person's reality is NOT necessarily as valid as another's. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In a relationship between two people, I must respectfully disagree.

Perhaps we are using the wrong terms...
Reality can be defined in absolutes, so I suppose I'm referring primarily to an individual's perception of reality.

Regardless of the person's mental health, no one else can interpret the reality of the relationship for them. When you start trying to do this for that person, it becomes disrespectful and manipulative.

I'll be the first to admit that my reality was bent prior to my affair...but the point is that it was MY reality and should've been acknowledged...not discounted. I felt disrespected, so I withdrew from the relationship.

Who are any of us to judge the validity of reality for another?

Admittedly, there comes a point when an individual becomes a danger to themselves and others around them. But even then, the only way to communicate with that person is going to be through respect of their perception of reality, as bent as it may be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> These issues are part of the PERSON not of the marriage. Marriage is not an entity, separate from the people involved in it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These statements seem to contradict each other. perhaps I didn't clearly understand you. It is the very fact that a marriage is not a separate entity from the people in it that makes the health of that relationship dependent on the participants' health. If either is unhealthy, the marriage is unhealthy.

Low

<small>[ May 09, 2004, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

I think I understand what Low is saying.

In essence, if we want to be engaged in a vital, growing, healthy marriage, we cannot afford to dismiss our spouse's "reality." If they say, "You're ignoring me," we need to take them seriously. If they say, "I feel disconnected," we need to bend over backwards to reconnect.

Because, at the heart of it all, we LOVE this person. And I mean love as a verb. We want the best for this person, we want to help this person, we want to support and cherish and nurture this person.

Ignoring or dismissing or somehow invalidating their "reality," for whatever reason, only breaks down the relationship.

Of course, there needs to be balance in this idea. At some point, we may need to say, "Wait a minute. You say you're feeling ignored. I feel like I'm doing everything I can to pay attention to you. What else can I do?" And if our spouse can't answer that question, we may need to lovingly point them to counseling or a mentor. Or we could share our "reality" and our whys for our perspective. And maybe seeing life through our eyes will help them. Who knows?

But what I think Low is saying, in essence, is very, very valid.

Personal footnote: My FWH says he told me many times last summer that he felt "disconnected" from me. I didn't mean to dismiss him. But we were both under a lot of stress at the time. We'd just moved -- again (our third move in three years). This time, we'd moved from a big city in California to a small town in the Midwest. (Huge lifestyle change.) We were dealing with unpleasant weather, a job that was turning into a nightmare, bugs, lots of job-related travel, a new pregnancy. It was rough on both of us. So while I knew he was struggling, I just listened to him, prayed for him -- and then went on my merry way.

Now, the reality was -- I wasn't ignoring him. In fact, I was traveling with him (at his request), trying to give him space (at his request), talking to him, praying for him (passionately), begging him to have sex more often. Yes, it's true that there were a few incidents when he wanted to talk and I was busy -- putting our daughter to bed, repairing virus-damage on my computer, etc. That was my fault. Bad BH03. But in the grand scheme of things -- THAT HAPPENS. None of us are perfect.

(That's what my MC was trying to get me to see, by the way. That I shouldn't lament, "If only I had done better last summer, he wouldn't have had this affair." Says MC: "That's not necessarily true. We all have bad days. Healthy people look at the overall picture. You can't and shouldn't take too much responsiblity for this thing. This had to do with FWH's past, his bitterness from our early marriage and his lack of boundaries with women." Thus, you could have been perfect...)

Ok. So what happened? FWH interpreted those few incidents as a rejection -- as me saying, in effect, "You aren't that important to me. I don't think what you're feeling is important."

And that triggered childhood issues, issues from the first 7 years of our marriage that he had allowed to fester -- and boom! Enter affair, stage right.

So! To sum up my book ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Even if you don't agree with your spouse's reality, don't ignore it. We have a responsibility to take them seriously. That's our job as a husband or a wife.

BH03

Broken, I agree with everthing you said. However, if your S isn't even aware of their reality, and so doens't share it with you, there ain't much you can do. It's the difference between living a conscious vs an unconscious life. My H had old resentments that I really thought we had both dealt with and healed from. Apparently I had but he hadn't. Didn't have a clue because I don't think he knew it. Once the A began he was so into rewriting history, those old hurts were the reality for him. CV

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Broken, I agree with everthing you said. However, if your S isn't even aware of their reality, and so doens't share it with you, there ain't much you can do. It's the difference between living a conscious vs an unconscious life. My H had old resentments that I really thought we had both dealt with and healed from. Apparently I had but he hadn't. Didn't have a clue because I don't think he knew it. Once the A began he was so into rewriting history, those old hurts were the reality for him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CV, this is what happened in our situation as well.

When FWH confessed his first two affairs four years ago, I was devastated -- but I thought we did a great job dealing with the issues in our marriage. We got out our old copy of HN/HN, we dated again, we started prioritizing each other. And even FWH would agree that our marriage rekindled. The next two years were WONDERFUL. We shared a renewed closeness, FWH grew in his faith immeasurably, we had our first baby. We made decisions together. We enjoyed sex. We were a team again.

Good job everyone. Case closed.

Or so I thought.

In reality, FWH had never dealt with his PERSONAL issues. So this past year, when the perfect storm hit, he went under again. And like your FWH, he started rewriting even recent history because the puss from past wounds started oozing all over the place. (Sorry to be graphic, but I like word pictures. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) All of a sudden, this job HE wanted, this move HE initiated, this change HE had to talk me into -- became MY doing (because he wasn't happy anymore).

"I'm only here because of BH03," he muttered to himself.

When I didn't immediately respond to his requests for attention, he thought, "See? It's just like it was during the first 7 years of our marriage. Everything else is more important to her than me."

When I told him we would need to buy blinds for the windows in our new house (so the toddler could take naps during the day), he rolled his eyes and said, "She's always trying to spend our money!"

In reality, those comments are LAUGHABLE! And as soon as the storm clouds cleared, he saw it too.

Last spring and summer, HE fell apart. It had little to do with our marriage. It had to do with abandonment issues from his childhood, acceptance issues from his adopted family, bitterness from our early marriage.

So yes, I agree. You can't confront what's not acknowledged. Which is why ignoring an issue -- because of pride or conflict avoidance or damaged self-esteem or whatever -- is like ignoring a bomb in the corner of your house. You never know when it might explode -- destroying your life.

BH03

LO, ST, BH03, okay so now what? i'm just now reading this thread but i have made it very clear from my posts that we didn't have a good M and that i don't think i was a good W and can now see about the HN/HN and how i helped create an environment that made my H vulnerable to an A. my H had low-esteem, was a conflict avoider, did many of the things that was mentioned that a WS did, and he still maintains that he gave me "years" to change and just show that i loved him and appreciated him. i also think that if our sex life had been better then none of those things would really have made a difference right now.

but anyway, again , my question is now what? i've realized these things, have done tremendous soul-searching and had a huge change of heart and know what i need to do to be the wife i should and can be. the fact of the matter is that my H is in an A w/a 20 yr old single college student who still lives at home w/her parents, who know my H is M and aren't doing anything about it, in fact they "like" him. My IL's are aware and my MIL has even met the OW and said she was "nice." and my H said that his family is glad he is happy. my H says he can't go back that he doesn't feel that way about me anymore.

so now what? i'm in counseling w/SH, my pastor, my mom, and God. what's the likelihood he will ever come around? we are already living in different states (but not because of this), i'm very good at blaming myself and have totally forgiven him but when am i going to be given another chance? because i honestly don't believe i was ever given a true chance because my H didn't tell me that our M was in danger or that he didn't know how much more he could take. he now says he was just so unhappy and then he just met a pretty girl who was nice to him and that she makes him happy.

again, now what?

If someone were dealing with a severely mentally ill spouse, say someone who thought all his coworkers were trying to kill him, it would be useful to be aware of his perception of reality, but it sure wouldn't be helpful to buy into it! Similarly, if one's spouse is suffering from depression and feels that he is mistreated, unloved, not respected, or whatever, and that is not the case, it would be useful to be aware of that (which is not always possible if the depressed spouse tries to hide it), but once again it is not useful to buy into that perception of reality. A depressed person is typically a bottomless pit of neediness, and no amount of love or whatever else the depressed person feels shortchanged on will be enough.

RoughRoad:

Sorry no one's gotten back to your question. I have no personal experience with Plan A or Plan B, as my FWH always confessed his affairs. (Gee, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.)

But my understanding is -- you should stay in Plan A for as long as you can -- then go to Plan B and go dark on him.

I'm sure others can give you more introspective words of wisdom.

And -- always, always pray. God is the one who changes the heart.

BH03

thanks BH03, i kind of just asked those questions not really expecting an answer if you know what i mean. I don't know if it's the right mindset to have (in addition to God's will) and i actually have several mindsets, but starting to think that i can last longer than the OW, of course that's relatively easy to say right now but i'm thinking long term that will she be able to last years and i know i can. I talked to SH yesterday about this and you can read what he had to say about it and my progress in general under my thread that starts "chris-CA123 & other OT's.........." it's about my sessions w/SH. basically SH said that no matter what happens w/me and H that OP has a character flaw, she's seeing a MM and that he thinks that she will have a shelf-life, which means she won't be able to last as long as i do provided i continue doing what i'm doing. just hope my H can eventually come around. thanks for the reply and encouragment, prayers to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Similarly, if one's spouse is suffering from depression and feels that he is mistreated, unloved, not respected, or whatever, and that is not the case, it would be useful to be aware of that (which is not always possible if the depressed spouse tries to hide it), but once again it is not useful to buy into that perception of reality. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And who are you to say that's not the case? He FEELS depressed and mistreated. Telling him "that's not the case" is dismissive and disrespectful. Work with him to find out why he feels this way. Be open to the possibility that he HAS been treated badly.

Certainly no one is suggesting that you re-mold YOUR perception to match that of the other partner...only that you understand and respect where they are coming from.

While the discussion of severely mentally ill people seems like a logical extension of our discussion about perception of reality, there IS a fuzzy threshold that can be crossed when most people would agree that an individual is no longer mentally competent.

Comparing situations on EITHER side of this threshold to each other is like comparing apples and oranges.

Most recovering marriages involve people who are in reasonable control of their faculties, therefore, it seems that developing empathy for one another would be important to the recovery.
Dismissing your WS's preception of reality is a relationship killer. It's another example of the "I'd rather be right than married" mentality.

Low

<small>[ May 12, 2004, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

Low, your last post is very relevant to a conversation H and I had at 4:30 am this morning. I would say that I had a lot of trouble in the empathy department. I'll explain.

If you have followed my earlier posts you'll know that H had his good friend working with him for at least 16 years. He wasn't a financial business partner, but it was like he was H's partner. Basically they worked very well together over the years. If there was a problem they were able to talk about it. Enter OW and the eventual A. She began to put a wedge between H and friend, especially when the A was occuring. She would tell H things friend said and then ask H tonot tell friend. H used to actually relate this to me and I never thought it was right. Obviously what it did was increase H's trust in her, and undermine he and friend's relationship. H was never able to check the accuracy of what OW told him. When the A was revealed and the friend and I began talking about everything it was clear that we both had been treated the same way, and we both were continuously lied to. F hated working with H so much he was getting physical symptoms and eventually quit the business. It's interesting that both F and I were deciding to leave H in December because we both were dying inside. H chose to trust the wrong person.

Now to last night. H is very unhappy. His business was running very smoothly and he had a great relationship with staff, especially F and OW. Well, the A ruined all that and now he is working with 2 totally new people in those positions. Last night I suggested that maybe he is missing partner, possibly more than OW. He acknowledged this, but then went on to talk about how angry he is at F. His fantasy is that F would have understood how screwed up he was and would have stuck by him. He feels that F really let him down and abandoned him. I really tried to empathize with him, and clarified I understood his feelings. Yet, I think his thinking (not feelings), are totally off. F was lied to for months. F was treated like sh**. F was replaced by OW the office manager. F is sure she was gunning for his job. F tried repeatedly to talk to H and was shut down, just like me. F finally had to leave because he couldn't stand it anymore.

So my question to you. H got angry at me last night because I tried to help him see the other perspective. He and F won't heal their friendship until H really understands how he hurt F. H just wanted me to understand his feelings. So I'm sure the lovely OW would have been totally understanding, never rocking the LOVE boat. I, on the other hand, am trying to shine some mirror of reality into his foggy thinking. My only conclusion is I need to just let his shrink do that.

Sorry, another long post. But I do think it speaks to what you wrote. CV

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So my question to you. H got angry at me last night because I tried to help him see the other perspective. He and F won't heal their friendship until H really understands how he hurt F. H just wanted me to understand his feelings. So I'm sure the lovely OW would have been totally understanding, never rocking the LOVE boat. I, on the other hand, am trying to shine some mirror of reality into his foggy thinking. My only conclusion is I need to just let his shrink do that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do think it's a matter of timing. By sharing his feelings about F with you, he's giving you an opportunity to build trust. You do this by validating his feelings, which you did. Unfortunately, immediately following up be trying to "mirror reality" comes across that you're not supportive. Sort of a different kind of "I'm sorry BUT" type of thing. Your attempts at trying "educate" him wipe out the love units you deposited with your earlier empathy.

Until he is healthier, trying to change his perception will be a tricky dance. It may be like you said...you're not the person who should do it. You need to pick and choose these things carefully.

I remember after the affair, my wife would tell me horrible things that the OW did. I dismissed it as her anger, plus I didn't want to believe I could've been such a bad judge of character.

I've since come to find out through other sources that some of these horrible things were true. It just had to come from someone different for me to hear it.

In the end, you're right that there are some things that would be better for his shrink to do. You shouldn't feel resentful about that. It lets you focus on depositing the love units!

Low

Low, I've got to admit, sometimes I get a little tired of H's "Love Units." Your response is right on however. Next time he talks about his FEELINGS, especially when I am having a difficult time with empathizing, I'll pretend I'm giving my oscar performance. Which means keeping my counselor-educator mouth shut, and saying lots of "HMMMM, I understand, So you felt BLAH, BLAH, BLAH." We'll see if I can pull it off.

Today we continued with a Steve Harley assignment, which was the WHAT HAPPENED of the A. We've already discussed how H failed to protect his weaknesses. The new info I got today was how the 1st exchange of inappropriate feelings were exchanged. I knew she had written him a letter telling him about their connection. Today I found out she drove him to a park after work and read the letter out loud to him. My response was, "She read the letter out loud to you?" Then I said, "What a "F"ing B." On the positive side I didn't yell, scream, or call H any names. I swear, if I ever decide to have an A I'm going to follow OWs guidelines. She was good! Very good! Of course at the park H acknowledged his connection to her. OW made a point in the letter that she was sure the feelings had to do with the bad times they were both going through. Then why did she have to read that out loud? Apparently she didn't want to forget anything.

OMG, if only H would have come to me then. As you know, that's how the secrets begin, right? I'm sure he knew if he told me I would have (a) told him to get rid of the conniving B, or (b) the three of us would have had a nice little chat together.

Thanks, that was a nice little vent! Notice how you are the only FWS who seems to be responding to any of my posts lately. H told me after d-day that I sometimes scare him. Am I scary? CV

Obviously one should not tell the depressed partner that he is a complete idiot for feeling mistreated, but it does no good to lead him to believe that you agree with his negative assessment of life. And yes, if the other spouse is not also suffering from depression, then he or she is in a much better position to evaluate whether or not the depressed spouse is seeing things more negatively than they really are.

The line between being mentally competent and not is VERY fuzzy, and I disagree that I was comparing apples and oranges. People who are depressed, especially if they are bipolar, can be mentally competent 99.9% of the time, but the remainder of the time they may not be. That doesn't mean they should be hospitalized, but sometimes people who are depressed perceive others' motivations as extremely negative when, if fact, they were innocent.

Nellie, here is a quote from one my earlier responses:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Certainly no one is suggesting that you re-mold YOUR perception to match that of the other partner...only that you understand and respect where they are coming from. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Validating and respecting your spouses viewpoint does not mean you have to agree with it.

You said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The line between being mentally competent and not is VERY fuzzy, and I disagree that I was comparing apples and oranges. People who are depressed, especially if they are bipolar, can be mentally competent 99.9% of the time, but the remainder of the time they may not be. That doesn't mean they should be hospitalized, but sometimes people who are depressed perceive others' motivations as extremely negative when, if fact, they were innocent. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what about the other 0.1% of the time? Those are certainly apples in our oranges. And I have to disagree that the line is not fuzzy. The entire field of psychiatric medicine is a fuzzy science.

You are suggesting that we dismiss that depressed individual's negative responses because YOU perceive the motives as innocent.

Per your argument, anything perceived by a spouse experiencing great joy when the other isn't experiencing it would also be in an "invalid state." Depression, anger, joy, and sorrow are part of the human experience. In your word, we are competent 99.9% of the time. The perception of life during those times is very important to that person. Just because your spouse isn't experiencing it the same way, doesn't make you wrong. So, 99.9% of the time, your spouse owes it to you to listen and try to understand.

That's what this is all about - perception. Our emotional state influences our perceptions. Barring severe mental disorder, who's to say which perception is "right"?

To sit and argue with a depressed person about the validity of their feelings is degrading and pointless. It does nothing but wreck your relationship with them.

Low

<small>[ May 13, 2004, 05:02 AM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

You misunderstood. I said the line WAS fuzzy.

I did not say you should argue with your depressed partner about his feelings.

If a depressed partner were to say that he was unloved by his spouse, only the spouse can determine if that is true.

The definition of depression includes the fact that the depressed person's perceptions are NOT based on reality. No, their perceptions ARE NOT valid. That is the whole point. If all their negative perceptions were valid, then they would not be clinically depressed, even if they were miserable. If someone's parents had just died and her spouse beat her up constantly, and that person felt sad and unloved, those would not be symptoms of depression.

Low,

I read that article...excellent, but what does it have to do with one spouse having an affair? I don't get it.

What I got out of that article is that you need to work on a marriage. I'm assuming that if I'm not willing to do that, I may end up alone due to divorce, not betrayed by my partner.

The guy in the story, Bruce, had to pay some pretty stiff consequences for forgetting to get recertified. It was a tough break, but he did in cause it himself in reality. Are you saying that most BS are paying the consequences for not being the perfect spouse to their WS? If you are, then I think that you are way off base on this one. If not, please explain.

Stillwed

<small>[ May 13, 2004, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: stillwed ]</small>