thanks for the prayers tinman.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How long did it take you to get your feelings back for your H while in the A? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">well, as we all know, it took a very long time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

roman, i read your post over and over, i don't know what to say. i so want to take it all to heart, let your words help me feel that forgiveness and comfort. i will keep trying.

i've been staying away from FL's threads because i know that my thoughts on this won't be appreciated by most of the posters...but this is really bugging me...

i read all over this site where BS's are advised to give the WS the royal treatment via plan A when the affair is discovered..yet, FL (a WS who CONFESSED rather than get 'busted') is encouraged to sit back and accept being treated like crap by her BS??...doesn't anybody here think that FL has the right to let her H know that she is very very sorry and remorseful for her A, and will do anything she can to make it up to him, but that she WILL NOT accept being treated like a disgusting non person as punishment for her 'crime'?? I mean, I KNOW that there is major trust rebuilding and recovery to be done...but it seems to me that FL's H isn't putting much effort into rebuilding anything as long as he continues to wallow in this and refuses to acknowledge that FL has needs and feelings too...he's pretty much doing a 'anti plan A' and i don't see FL encouraged to do much about it. I'm afraid that he is going to push her right back into the A, and I really couldn't say i'd blame her much...a person can take only so much of being made to feel 'insignificant and invisible' before they have to find a way to be validated...and with the OM ready and willing to do that for her..it's just a disaster waiting to happen if you ask me...yeah, I know nobody asked, but I had to say it anyway...

FL...I'm going to say what I haven't heard anyone say to you yet....please talk to your H about how his treatment of you is pushing you back into your old ways...that you are more than willing to work on this, but you do need some help...and telling you he can't kiss you because of where your mouth has been isn't showing much of a chance that he is trying very hard.....from what I've read, he doesn't mind your mouth being elsewhere on his body, but he 'can't' even try to satisfy you at all??...Sorry, but it's no wonder you feel so low and insignificant....I know that you did something terrible to your H, but you do not deserve to be punished indefinately for it....

<small>[ May 11, 2004, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: dreamcatcher ]</small>

dreamcatcher, thankfully i don't need my voice to type because it is totally choked up. thank you for your post.

you don't know how hard it is to read about all these BHs working so hard to win their WWs back. it hurts so much, more than words can describe.

today has been so bad. all i have done is cry. i left work went to a forest perserve and just sat in the car for hours. i tried to go home early to see H, he was at the store. i couldn't face the kids, and i went to another forest preserve by the house (which is 1 min from the house), i told husband where i was and that i couldn't come home in the condition i was in. he said ok.

i am home now. kids had open house presentations at their theater class. son and H are now at son's b-ball game. i will be tutoring in a minute.

thanks again dreamcatcher, i do feel like i deserve better treatment but i also feel like i don't.

Finally Learning,

You can't save him. Or change him. Only he can do that. What you can do is take care of yourself and your kids. Maybe even move on with your life a little and stop focusing on fixing things. Maybe he'll come along for the ride some day, but it really is his choice. Find somebody to lean on who is safe, and do some healthy things to ease your pain. Maybe it's hard to look for a counselor or ask someone to share your burden, but it sounds like you really need to lean on someone at least a little. God, yes, but I don't think that precludes human warmth and understanding. Maybe talk to your physician?

Take care,

DeNovo

FL,

I have been reading this thread trying to figure out what to say, then Dreamcatcher posted and I realized what is bothering me so.

Dreamcatcher seems to feel your should get a backbone and stand up to your H and demand to be treated better. I agree with him/her up to a point. But, Dreamcatcher probably doesn't know that your H spent two YEARS working on the marriage while you continued your A. He busted his butt and was rewarded with little or no response because of the A.

Then FL you say </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you don't know how hard it is to read about all these BHs working so hard to win their WWs back. it hurts so much, more than words can describe.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your H was a BH working so hard to win his WS back, for over two years. In your endeavors to seek victimhood you fail to take into account that you made a complete fool out of him while he worked on the marriage. Or a least that is very likely how he feels.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">today has been so bad. all i have done is cry. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why are you crying, what was so bad about today?

FL, have read this post, and it is filled with how down you are. How your H hasn't treated you right. How you despair that he ever will. Has it occurred to you that he went through two years of this?

What are YOU doing to rebuild this marriage? Crying is NOT rebuilding. You need to stand up and get to work FL, that includes not accepting bad treatment, but it also means knock off the crying and get back in your marriage, start being a person that your H would enjoy being around rather than some cowering, crying woman that runs off and calls her OM yet again.

I know why you called him, you want your H to end this mess and this is about the quickest way you can find without doing it yourself. You are NOT doing the work here FL. You need to go see a Doc and get on Anti-D's if you are not on them, and if you are you need to consider some new ones.

FL, you cannot change the past but you sure can change the future but that means that you must quit feeling sorry for yourself and get back into the game. It means setting boundaries, it means dealing with what your H says, and that includes telling him when he hurts you and then ask him if that is what he really wants to do. It also means becoming someone your children enjoy seeing (not a crying Mom), someone your H enjoys being around (not a crying W).

I hope that something I have said helps, but most of all I hope it makes you stop and think about your reactions to all of this and your dedication to getting this marriage back on track. You don't have to wait for your H, you can decide to do your best to get it back and moving and I recommend you consider doing this action.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

it was later that night when he re-brought up the morning chat and he started saying i had no right to put pressure on him that he told me the reason he didn't want to kiss is because of where my mouth had been <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And.... doesn't he have a right to feel this way about your mouth?

Maybe he needs more time to work these feeling out before he can kiss your lips with joy again.

Your H is not unusual.

It is not UNcommon for any BS to feel the way your H does... early in the recovery process.

Your H trusted you and shared his emotional truth ....
and you feel empathy for him.... right? right?

Do you feel empathy that he cannot even kiss the wife he loves without being flooded with hurtful "head videos" ...

It hurts him emotionally to kiss you...

THIS is the consequence of an affair...

And this is not something that was dreamed up by your H's immagination...
He's not blowing something out of proportion...

He is emotionally damaged by the affair... and he told you how it effects him.... and do you feel...

empathy?

He is in a terrible spot... your mouth put him there.

face facts.

Say sorry.

Tell him you cannot wait until the day your mouth brings him nothing but joy and desire.... and you will patiently wait for that day (and , meanwhile... you will NOT contact nasty OM who is a sick man who doesn't give a flying fig about your H's hurt!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> )

Your job... is to reject your feeling sorry for yourself because the consequences suck.... hunker down into the marriage ...
develop a supurb attitude filled with empathy toward your H's pain and his damaged heart...

Your mouth represents something he has lost... your sweet kisses feel like slaps to his head...

Deal with this reality using empathy and understanding... and time will make this better... look for opportunities to make your marriage better...

Contact with OM means what... what what what

Numb the pain....
Run away from the mess you made...
Quick fix for poo poo mess at home...

Get real..


Pep

Originally posted by Blessed TIME:
"Dear Finally Learning.
I don't think I like your husband!

For him to humiliate you to the point that your lips are unkissable because of your past affair yet he is very willing for you to give him OS, makes me think he is not being at all nice to you! It seems he is trying to punish you!"

I totally DISagree with this point of view... however, BT is certainly free to express her opinion.

A man has the RIGHT to his feelings... just as much as a woman.

A man has a right to express his hurt to his wife... even if the truth hurts.

"Punish" is the wrong way to look at this...

I see it this way ... he was expressing himself... openly and honestly.

After an affair... you can expect that there will be hurt and the damage will be REAL..

Empathy.... he hurts. He was betrayed. He cannot kiss the mouth that did God knows what to OM's body... THIS is understandable!

He needs time.


Pep

Hi FL.
I disagree with Pepperband.
I believe it is Wrong Wrong Wrong for your husband to say your lips are unworthy of his kisses!

He is punishing you.
He is humiliating you.
He is hurting you.
He is not being kind.
He is pushing you away.
He is acting in a "I am better than you" attitude, which puts him as just as much a sinner as you, FL.

Yet he is perfectly willing for you to give him BJ's with that mouth of yours.
Maybe that is why he doesn't want to kiss you because it has HIM all over it.

I just HATE it when the BS get the attitude that they are better than God.

Because God forgives!
And I am a BS, I would never have refused my husband's kisses! Passionate kisses were actually how I got him back to my loving arms.

If you husband wants you romanticly and emotionally back, he better start flying right or he is going to lose you to this OM or some other OM that desires and wants your kisses and loving and wants to give them to you also!
Sincerely, Julie

He is punishing you. He is telling you how he feels.
He is humiliating you.He is trusting you with his pain.
He is hurting you.He is hurting.
He is not being kind.He is in shock from the affair.
He is pushing you away.He is sharing a very intimate psrt of himself with you ... his hurt.
He is acting in a "I am better than you" attitude, which puts him as just as much a sinner as you, FL.He is hurting. He is flailing around. He is lost.

Yet he is perfectly willing for you to give him BJ's with that mouth of yours.
Maybe that is why he doesn't want to kiss you because it has HIM all over it. rude assumption

I just HATE it when the BS get the attitude that they are better than God. YOU have no idea what her H's attitude is as far as where he stands with God! Outrageous!


And I am a BS, I would never have refused my husband's kisses! Passionate kisses were actually how I got him back to my loving arms.And good for you... perhaps her H may be allowed to feel his pain??? Empathy and understanding ... he is not a monster... he is a man with an issue of intimate acts because he was betrayed.

If you husband wants you romanticly and emotionally back, he better start flying right or he is going to lose you to this OM or some other OM that desires and wants your kisses and loving and wants to give them to you also!
Sincerely, Julie Yes, this sounds like a BS who very recently considered an affair of her own!

Pep

Well, Pep, we will have to agree to disagree.

I sincerely believe that any man or woman that would treat their mate that way, explains a little to me, what just might have made that mate stray to begin with!

I call it cruel and unusual punishment to have his wife continually give him blow jobs, not try to satisfy her sexually, and then to say her mouth is not worthy to be kissed by him!

Sorry, but to me, he comes off as a [censored]!
Sincerely, Julie

P.S. When we tell God we are sorry and we repent, He forgives and we never have to ask again. Just how many times does FL have to say she is sorry in order for her H to forgive her?

<small>[ May 11, 2004, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

{{Tell him you cannot wait until the day your mouth brings him nothing but joy and desire.... and you will patiently wait for that day }} ...

that is all well and good...but is she also to accept being humiliated and treated like she is the worst human being in the world also...and for how long??? ... I truly can see how FL's H is feeling..really, I did the same thing to my H...but here's the thing...my H was pretty much treating me like a non-entity before I had my A..if he had continued to treat me that way after I ended it...I'm pretty sure I would have had way less incentive to do that....

We all know that A's are wrong..and the fact that FL is here at all shows that she is willing and wanting so bad to work this out...that is not going to happen while her H is treating her this way...pepperband..you really cannot think that she deserves that treatment..and surely you don't think that his treatment of her is going to help this marriage recover..???

FL did a bad bad thing..we all agree with that...but she confessed her sin to her H and loves him and WANTS BADLY to be in a real MARRIAGE again...dang, he makes her feel like crap most of the time....not much different than i bet she felt after being with the OM while in the A...at least in that situation she had some moments of validation and feeling 'wanted'..a false feeling I agree..but it involved FEELING..

I don't want to see FL fall back into her A again...which is exactly why I think she needs to talk to her H and try to make him see that the way he is treating her isn't helping her to move along...hell, even a little plan A'ing on his part would be an improvement over how she's being treated...I just think it's time she opened his eyes to the fact that she isn't willing to spend the rest of her life being made to feel like crap, she's willing to pay for her sins, but there has to be at least a little 'reward' for her efforts...just a little...

FL, I do think your H has it in him to forgive you...but for your own sanity I think you need to lay some cards on the table..you need to do this before the next time you are tempted to go be with the OM...because THAT will only destroy what little you do have left of your M...be strong and try to get him to show you that there is a light at the end of all of this, if you don't, I am so afraid that you will fall back into the A...I'd hate to see that after all you've worked to do....

<small>[ May 11, 2004, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: dreamcatcher ]</small>

{{he is a man with an issue of intimate acts because he was betrayed.}} ... ahhhh, but oral sex isn't intimate? and he has no trouble with that...sorry, but i agree with Blessed Time, he's being an [censored] in this case and if he keeps getting his 'allowable' intimacy without any reciprocation whatsoever, he may never want or need to go back to being a partner in this marriage...that's no way for anyone to live..even one of us 'evil' WS's...

Dreamcatcher, I agree 100% with what you wrote.

You worded it very very well.
Love, Julie

I wasn't sure if you read the note just before yours as we were posting at about the same time.
The one where I called him a '[censored]'... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

BT, and Dreamcatcher,

I guess I am going to have to differ with you all. I think for one thing FL is in a very fragile state and her recounting of what is going on is not as 'accurate' as you may think. Her comment about wishing her H acted like other BH's is a sure clue. Her H did act that way for over 2.5 years. She pushed him away for 2 years during her A. She had what she wished for and it eventually turned her around.

However, Pep is right I think. He must be able to express himself and she must allow it. It is not uncommon for couples to have NO sex for many months after an affair. Interestingly it is usually the BW that puts the end to it for the WH. However, there must be understanding and empathy for her H on the part of FL. This is a long term betrayal, and he was working hard on the marriage the whole time.

I agree she needs to set and state her boundaries. But, her H has every right to feel he cannot kiss her right now. Is it the most productive? Probably NOT. But, he has only known for a few weeks and usually this behavior tempers out in a month or so, and recovery starts to take hold after a few months. He is still there.

The bigger threat is the OM, and I don't think her stating or even thinking that she will run to OM IF H doesn't straighten up and hide his pain from her, is productive at all. It is blackmail and it will destroy the marriage.

Frankly FL sounds as if she needs some IC to sort out many things she is dealing with and her H is only part of the problem here.

It is well and good to state he should treat her better, but it is very counter productive to think that he does NOT have pain and if he does he should keep it to himself. Wrong answer. FL must get through this. She can decide that she will NOT do OS for him, she can decide many things, but she has to quit using his pain and anger as an excuse to contact OM which she did, or to fall into a deep depression which it sounds as if she is.

Her H is pretty normal of both men and women on this site who have been betrayed, especially when the BS was ACTIVELY working on making the marriage better and stronger, only to be betrayed for their efforts.

When FL first posted here, I told her the hardest thing for her H to get over would be the fact that she was having an A (a long term A) while he was doing everything in his power to make the marriage better AND succeeding at it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Sadly I was right, and he is angry about it, but he has NOT left, and I get the impression that while FL dwells on the bad things she is NOT telling us about other times when they are not bad. She is just not getting what she wants right now. Sadly, neither is her H.

I think the person that must do something is FL, she must get help for her depression and feelings right now. Her H can do nothing about these things, just as he could NOT end the A no matter what he did, until FL decided to do it.

Please think about these things.

God Bless,

JL

JL, what you wrote is very understanding of the situation.

Although you kinda picture FL's husband as a saint during the years of FL's affair. Was he all that good of a husband? Was he trying as hard as you say to heal the marriage? (I realize he did not know about the affair)

Did he give FL the love, affection and attention she needed during those years before the affair? If so, could that have helped her NOT to stray?

And don't you truly believe if FL's husband used the Plan A techinque NOW, that it would help immensely to heal their marriage?
Instead of the 'Punishment Plan'!

To me, there is a big difference in expressing your hurt and purposely hurting your mate! Agree?

Sincerely, Julie
JL, you wrote: " However, there must be understanding and empathy for her H on the part of FL"

From Julie: "That road goes both ways and H must have understanding and empathy for FL if they are ever going to heal their relationship!"

<small>[ May 11, 2004, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

JL, I do agree with you that FL's H has every right to feel the way he does..every right to refuse to kiss her if he chooses...however, I find it terribly Hypocritical of him to welcome OS and then turn around and say her mouth is 'dirty' now...pretty convenient...

I also agree that we may mostly be hearing the 'bad' parts of how the H is treating her, we do tend to reach out to help with the hard parts of life, so no doubt we hear a lot of the 'bad' stuff and not so much of the good stuff....that goes both ways though, how can you be so sure that FL's H was doing such a great job at plan A'ing while she was in the affair...none of us are/were there and can only imagine that 'nobody is perfect'

The main point of my posting was to wonder how FL can be encouraged to hang in there indefinatly with this treatment when it's pretty obvious her H is doing nothing close to this 'plan A' that seems to work so well for other marriages...I don't think she should tell her H that if he doesn't start treating her better, she is going to go back to the OM..!!...(although I think that he is unconsciously pushing her to that)...I just think she needs to speak up and let him know that the way he is treating her is tearing her down inside, and remind him that doing that is not going to save this marriage if that's what he wants. Does she not deserve just as many deposits into her 'love bank' as any of the other WS's we read about here? I can't imagine that if FL's H would come here posting as a BS, that he would be encouraged to wallow in his pain and punish her as much as possible...

FL, I think the best advice you've been given is to look into counseling and get on some anti depressents ASAP...perhaps you can encourage your H to do IC also, or even better yet, MC...the thing is.....you don't have to 'sell your soul to the devil'(OM) to feel happy in your life again, but you also don't have to accept that you deserve to be treated badly and made to feel badly about yourself...God doesn't work that way...and if you've truly asked for forgiveness from Him, He has forgiven you...He knows if you are truly sorry and repentant...He loves you no matter what..even in your weakness...

Please take care of YOU right now, there are things you can do to make you feel better about yourself and be happy again, work on you and hopefully your H will follow suit and work on his issues too...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> FL, I think the best advice you've been given is to look into counseling and get on some anti depressents ASAP...perhaps you can encourage your H to do IC also, or even better yet, MC...the thing is.....you don't have to 'sell your soul to the devil'(OM) to feel happy in your life again, but you also don't have to accept that you deserve to be treated badly and made to feel badly about yourself...God doesn't work that way...and if you've truly asked for forgiveness from Him, He has forgiven you...He knows if you are truly sorry and repentant...He loves you no matter what..even in your weakness...

Please take care of YOU right now, there are things you can do to make you feel better about yourself and be happy again, work on you and hopefully your H will follow suit and work on his issues too...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FL, dreamcatcher is right. In fact, the best thing you could do right now might be to detach from trying to control the outcome of this thing and figure out how to be okay yourself. This is only a message board, and I don't think any of us can really get your situation completely, but it sounds like there's an emotional power struggle going on. I wonder what would happen if you took responsibility for your part in things but didn't try to fix him? You have the right to get help in figuring it out; you don't have to settle for things as they are.

About your mouth. I keep thinking what a precious thing it is. It's the portal for food and love and air and speech and comfort, a beautiful organ created by God for giving and receiving so many things, including pleasure. There's nothing dirty about it. Take care of it. Take care of yourself.

"Sorry, but to me, he comes off as a [censored]!
Sincerely, Julie"

Sorry, but to me your calling her husband names because he is struggling with his emotions ... is VERY offensive.

and you come off as insensitive.

Sincerely, Pep

<small>[ May 12, 2004, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Originally posted by dreamcatcher:
JL, I do agree with you that FL's H has every right to feel the way he does..every right to refuse to kiss her if he chooses...however, I find it terribly Hypocritical of him to welcome OS and then turn around and say her mouth is 'dirty' now...pretty convenient...

Why?

If this were a woman BS refusing to do a certain sexual act until she felt "ready" you'd be supportive...

He's not ready... and perhaps the act of kissing is more intimate to him personally ... and that is where he feels the most betrayed.

A hypocrite is someone who says one thing and does another... her H does not fall into that category.

If you want to DESTROY the chances of FL's marriage recovery... KEEP ON DOGGIN ON HER HUSBAND!!!!

Pep

Originally posted by dreamcatcher:
{{he is a man with an issue of intimate acts because he was betrayed.}} ... ahhhh, but oral sex isn't intimate? and he has no trouble with that...sorry, but i agree with Blessed Time, he's being an [censored] in this case and if he keeps getting his 'allowable' intimacy without any reciprocation whatsoever, he may never want or need to go back to being a partner in this marriage...that's no way for anyone to live..even one of us 'evil' WS's...

Evil has nothing to do with this...

The lack of empathy for this man is really astounding!

Are you hoping to contribute to FLs insecurity and encourage her to leave her H?

Recovery is HARD. Have some patience and some understanding and STOP calling her husband names .... he struggles too.

Pep