SAndy, I think you have already Plan A'ed enough and he is still not willing to end contact. Plan A is not the answer. You can't expect to keep doing the same thing and get different results. Just the fact that he REFUSES to end contact with the OW when he knows how destructive it is to your marriage should tell you everything you need to know, Sandy.

You need to seriously plan for Plan B if you want to save your marriage. And yes, Plan B is hard the first few weeks, but after that you start withdrawing from the WS and with that withdrawal comes withdrawal from the daily PAIN of the affair. Many feel GREAT RELIEF in Plan B.

Just look at it like this. Plan B is like going to the dentist for a root canal. The root canal is very painful at first, but it CURES the daily throbbing pain of a deep toothache.

It really is your best hope to salvage your marriage, Sandy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sandigirrl:
<strong> Hi and thanks to everyone for helping me so much yesterday and listening to my rant etc. Last night was not good--H feels that my request to not talk to OW when it is business is inappropriate and makes him feel "like he's ten years old and I'm his mom". He resents my asking him to take a leave from one of the bands. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What's grossly inappropriate is his request that he continue to associatate with the OW at the expense of his marriage. That should tell you where his priorities lie. Every time he sees hte OW, you both are put back to DAY ONE in recovery. You can NEVER recover as long as contact takes place.

That is about like expecting an alcoholic to sit in a bar every day in front of a cold beer and never take a drink. Pretty soon a weak moment will hit him and he will take a drink. And as long as he in the bar, he continually THINKS about that beer. That is EXACTLY what your H is doing!

Dear Melody,
Thank you for your efforts in helping me to see that this is true. Everything that you have said is true. In my heart of hearts I know it.

Yesterday he told me that the OW is 10 years older than he is. She will not leave her marriage because of the children and told him (back in October) that she would never leave her marriage==that they could just have 2 lives--their romantic lives and their home "basic" lives. He seemed to be OK with that and I think this is probably what is happening. He wants what he cannot have and that must be apretty powerful draw. This may work in Plan B for me I think.

Why can't I face the truth that Plan B might be the best thing all round? Has my self-esteem fallen so low that I can not see that this is the best thing? Why do I feel like the failure?

Melody, please keep talking to me. You are a lifesaver and I really respect your POV>

Sandy

sandigirl,

You have really been getting some excellent advice here. So I'm just going to add to it and "second' some of it. First, let's talk about Plan A. Plan A, has one and only one purpose...to end the affair by showing the marriage as an attractive alternative to the affair. It has several parts, and they should be done simultaneously. So let's go through them and you can mentally check the ones you feel as though you have accomplished.

*Stop ALL LBs of any kind.

*Fill the needs that your spouse will allow you to...recognizing that oftentimes they are not very receptive and are unlikely to reciprocate.

*Confront the WS with your feelings about the affair....remembering that "confrontation" is not arguments. Make statements about you and not criticisms of him. Use feeling statements to accomplish this. ie I feel _________ (devasted, afraid, angry, hurt etc) when_____________ (I found out you've seen the ow, I hear you say that professional contact is okay etc.)

*Exposure. This is probably the most powerful tool in the infidelity arsenal, but it must be used with grace and discrimination....always about saving the marriage and never about punishment. You should DEFINITELY recontact the OWH. Along with that, please also contact your H's parents if you believe they will help you, and any friends of his who are also friends of the marriage. Exposure injects conflict in the idyllic world of the affair. Instead of the secret conversations about love....they find themselves surrounded by turmoil and the ensuing arguments are great for exposing the failings of the affair.

Plan A has a TIME LIMIT. Melody is quite right that done too long it is counter productive and only helps the entrenchment of the affair. Dr. H recommends 3 monts for women. So if you have accomplished the previous steps, it is time for Plan B. If you have a little tweaking to do...then do it now and prepare for Plan B.

Here is a guide from cerri for Plan A:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan A is not (repeat NOT) about making the WS happy, or feeling good.

Plan A is NOT, contrary to popular (and very incorrect opinion), about "making yourself a better person," or "working on yourself."

Plan A is ALL ABOUT the straying spouse. In Willard Harely's ever brilliant words, Plan A is a stategy to end the affair and to entice the straying spouse to reconsider the marriage.

So, it has several elements that should be done at the same time.

First is to eliminate LBers and to meet needs as best you can... recognizing that the unfaithful mate may not allow the betrayed partner to meet needs.

Second is to CONFRONT the unfaithful partner with what you know. Doing so (of course) in a way that is respectful and about you... how you feel, how you are affected by the affair.

Third is to expose the affair to the scrutiny of the world. The lover's spouse or s/o, coworkers, family, friends, church family, children, etc.

ALL OF THAT is Plan A. And it should be done as much as possible simultaneously. (If you don't believe me call the radio show Mondays and Thursdays at 1pm Central Time and ask Dr. Harley for yourself.)

Plan A must have a deadline. It's called Plan "A" because there is a second step... aptly named Plan "B." Willard Harley suggests a max of 6 months for men and 3 months for women before going to the next step. If Plan A hasn't worked in that time, it's not going to.

(I challenge you to find anyone who has done Plan A longer than that and been successful. I define successful as the A ending, n/c promised and verified, and the couple working a good recovery plan which includes meeting needs, eliminating LBers, getting in 15 hours a week of UAT, and most importantly following POJA.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B has several purposes. When an ongoing affair is causing daily pain and devastation, Plan B offers a way for the BS to be protected from the daily assault. It is a hard but often peaceful time. It also protects the love you have left for your spouse. Many people who find that there love and respect is almost gone, can stop that process by removing themselves from the daily pain. It also forces the OP to try AND FAIL at filling ALL your H's needs....even the ones previously filled by you. Trust me, she won't be able to. It consists of NO CONTACT AT ALL. You go completely dark and all communication of ANY kind is done through an intermediary. You take no calls, no emails, no letters, no meetings.

Preparations for Plan B: Organize finances so that you can support yourself. Pick an intermediary (VERY VERY IMPORTANT) that the two of you can use to arrange things like visitations, other daily information or emergencies. Write a Plan B letter.

Here is a guide from cerri about Plan B:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Unless you've written a letter, or stated explicitly the things below you aren't really in Plan B. Plan B requires that certain things be said up front. Otherwise it's more like withdrawal. I'm sure you said some or all of these things during the course of the sep, but a letter is optimal because it sets it all out in a way that is clear and concise and can't be denied or argued later. It can be looked at and reread as time goes on.

You need to decide if you are in save the marriage mode, or take care of you mode..... they're not mutually exclusive but you will behave differently depending on which way you're thinking.

MM and I differ on some things because I am very much hardline by the book Willard Harley. He's brilliant and his stuff works. Not all the time, nothing does, but more often and with better results than anyone else's methodology that I've seen to date. And because that's my training and I mentor for the weekend program, I use it almost exclusively.

Having said that, I probably don't know enough about your background history. If you have a legal separation then maybe you do want to sell the house, I agree that you won't want to live there together again. But if you sell it you remove one more connection that he has to you.... you give the appearance and send out the energy of moving on, rather than of taking care of yourself until the A ends. Ditto with the retirement funds. It looks like you're done. You're disassembling the remaining shell of the marriage.

Things that need to be in a PBL

• I love you.
• I married you for life. I want to stay married to you
• I am willing to do what it takes to be the spouse you've always wanted and to address the things I did wrong in the marriage.
• The affair/neglect/abuse is so painful for me that it will destroy the love I have for you. In order to protect those feelings I must end all contact with you.
• As soon as the affair/neglect/abuse is over I would love to talk with you about our future.
• Until that time please respect my wish for no contact whatsoever
• In an emergency you can reach me through______.
• Arrangements for seeing children and handling finances are_____.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is also an interesting post by Mortarman that he wrote to someone who was in Plan B. I think you will find it very enlightening:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hang in there. My Plan B roughly took 6-7 weeks before there was a noticable crack. Now that my wife is home, I found out that during those 6-7 weeks, things were indeed reaching "critical mass." This is why once you go to Plan B...DO NOT BACK DOWN! It will hurt you and cause you to have to go back through withdrawal. And it will make your husband think that you are not serious the next time. He sounds like there may be cracks in is armor. Dont think about them together alone right now (easier said than done!). Understand that now that you have done Plan A, and have forced him into Plan B, you have put him in a no win situation. He has an "either/or" scenario now. Either you or her. And since you said she is an exact opposite of you, the contrast will be readily apparent (my wife's OM was exact opposite of me).

Look, you have been married a long time. Your husband is used to certain things. He will expect her to do them also, and do them the way he likes them done. But guess what? She cant! up until now, they had a common "enemy"...that being you. So they laid down the differences that they dont like about each other to confront the assault on their relationship by you. But now that you are in Plan B, there is no enemy to their relationship. So, for the next few weeks/months, they will begin to be truly alone with each other...warts and all. And the last thing that your WH remembers of you is your Plan A.

Just like I told Learnin, the cycle will begin. OW will begin to LB. He will not be able to come to you to make up for what she is not giving him. So, he will begin to try to "change" her...or worse yet...to LB her because he is angry that she cant do it the way he likes. Of course, this LBing will cause her to back up and get angry and LB him. And her new LBs will only make him want to change things more...or pull back from her. And all of the time in this cycle, he has the memory of YOU. You are no longer around so he can invent his view of you. He is left with the reality of your Plan A, as he sits alone in Plan B fog.

So, he will begin to try to call, or stop by for some stupid reason. He will try to get near you, and if he does, he will try to get you to LB, so he cna justify and feel better about the mess that is now his relationship with the OW. But guess what? You are not even in the cycle. You dont respond to him, talk to him nor meet ANY of his needs. He is now alone in a relationship that is increasingly becoming worse than anything he thought the two of you had. My wife said at one point right before I went to Plan B, that she would prefer to go back in time and go back to the worse years of our marriage than to go through what she was going through. Why do you think that over 97% of these relationships do not work out?

But Mimi, now is the time to stay out of it. I disagree somewhat with what was stated above about not "hiding" from your WH. Now, while I agree that you shouldnt go to undue lengths to stay away from him, since you have a child together, I also believe that it is better for you if you have very little contact, even visual. It will only cause you to get upset and go into withdrawal again. And it will give him the opportunity to have new memories where he might get the good Mimi of the Plan A out of his head.

I think that if you have to not go to something that he is attending, then dont go. When I went to Plan B, my wife and I did not attend the school functions atthe same time. We did nothing associated with Christmas together. Several times, she wanted to come by or catch up with us when we went out to eat...and I ALWAYS denied her.

Plan B has to be air tight. Since you have a child, you still must have some contact. Make it ONLY about the kids, and only things that you HAVE to do together right now. There will be plenty of time in the future, if you are to divorce, to find a comfortable way to deal with each other. Right now, he needsto continue to be as uncomfortable as possible. And you have to get as comfortable as possible. The only way to do that is stay on course, stay away from him...and let the plan do its work.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So....that was probably more information than you ever expected. But I hope it helps!
Hugs to you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

*bump

Thank you Melody and Starfish! I so appreciate the time you are spending to coach me through this dark time.

Up to last week, I had a feeling of love for my husband--especially after reading the recontact email that has changed I think. I fear that my feelings for my H are numb or even gone. It is really a weird feeling--for 7 months he is all I have thought about even, sometimes (and I am ashamed to say it) to the detriment of my children and job. I was planning and fixing and thinking and crying etc.

Now I am at a very calm place--sort of feels like the eye of the storm. A place for making a decision to either recommit (and probably deny what is really happening) or going to Plan B in June (as soon as finances are straightened out).

Was this common? I feel like a big hurricane has blown through and now I am looking at the devastation and am deciding whether to clean it up or move on. It is strangely a good feeling.

I am trying to decide if I am tired of "the struggle" or of him. Part of me wants to say "get lost loser" and part of me is very fond of him. But I don't feel those surges of love over the past week (since finding his recontact letter) Might this mean that my lovebank is empty? I'm afraid that I don't love him anymore--I care so deeply but....

I just want peace. I want no doubts about the man who I love. Peace of mind would be nice too. This rollercoaster life is wearing me down and out. Is this a common feeling?

Hanging on....thanks to all for your responses. They are making me think,

Sandy

sandigirl

You are getting some of the best, and most thorough advice that I've ever seen on this board. You've responded to some of the things that have been suggested.

However, you seem to be (intentionally?) avoiding the suggestion of re-contact with the OW's husband. Of all the things that you can do, regardless of what plan you are in, or going to, this EXPOSURE will have the potential to be the action that has the MOST IMPACT.

Please look at the previous posts again. You even said it wreaked havoc with the OW when the OW's H found out before. There is no reason to delay. Contact him and exchange all current information with him as your earliest opportunity.

Keep your calm, and proceed with the gems of wisdom offered in the posts from ML and Star*fish. You are getting advice from some of the MB Forum's
wisest members! You can trust their advice and instincts.

Be Strong

SD

<small>[ May 17, 2004, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

Dear Shattered,
I am scared. I am falling for my H's sweet talk I think and am losing my resolve.

I know, from reading the posts, that this is good solid advice from everyone--it is logical and makes sense.

I am scared of the upheaval for my children (ages 17, 12, 10) and, to be honest, the risk of my marriage never working. I know, at the same time, that to do nothing means that I'll get the same results over the long term--the rollercoaster, the deception, the wondering.

I am stalling--I admit it. I'm not a risk taker by nature and because I feel so shaky about myself, I am finding security in maintaining the status quo--which I know is not really security at all.

I know I can't take finding out about contact one more time--a nervous breakdown would follow. I feel stuck and angry at a situation that I did not create although I contributed to the initial breakdown of the relationship between my H and myself. I feel shaky inside and really I shouldn't. I can be alone--heck I'm a champ at being alone even while being married for crying out loud. I feel weak and scared. I'm used to someone (my H) protecting me but I also know that what he is doing and saying is an illusion and not to be trusted.

I have to dig deep, withdraw from him, and prepare myself.

I've listened and learned well. I've got to grow up and be a good role model for my 2 daughters. I deserve respect and honesty and I am getting none of those things.

I think it is time to look inward, marshall up the reserves of energy and self-love. It's been a long time that I haven't given those things away to someone who trampled them and disrespected them so much. Shoulders back as mom used to say, tits out and forward march!! (My mom didn't say the tits part!)

Thank you to all. You have been a light in a very lonely heart. I'll check in with you soon and give you an update. My prayers to you all.

Sandy

Please contact the OW's H. That is the first thing to do. Then marshall your energy for Plan B.

I have never been alone, always in a relationship or married. But I found out in Plan B that I am very strong. It was such a relief after all of the stuff I went through. WH has maintained since the beginning that OW could be, would be, should be out of the picture. But he never followed through with action.

Your WH has already told you all you need to know. He does not care about the damage being done to your marriage and you, as long as he is getting his fix. It is all about him.

I would get my ducks in line for Plan B (after exposing the A). In the meantime, don't talk about relationship with WH. You can Plan A for a while until it is more convenient for you. But start getting ready for Plan B.

And I will give you a hint. Start working on you, and put him on the back burner. I started exercising, walking, cleaned the house spotless, detailed the car, joined a women's support group, started my own business, etc.

These activities will help you get your self-esteem back, and give you something to think about besides him and OW.