I read your post to RLL and I wanted to comment so I am going to start my own post. Lots of people are giving RLL a hard time about the comment and while I think it does hurt the BS to hear that I completely agree with you.

I realize that I am 50% responsible for this affair and that there are numberous changes that I need to make to make my marriage a better place. The changes are difficult and take a lot of work. I think the WH in the position of "giving the BS another chance" is doing the best they can. They are remorseful but they are also dealing with heartache and pain like you said.

I might get slammed for this but I would love to hear others positions. I sometimes think that we forget that the BS had a responsibility to the A as well. Does the BS not meeting the needs of the WS give the WS a just reason for the A he// no but obviously if it was a happy marriage WS would not have strayed. I think it is hard sometimes as a BS to see through all the pain (maybe it is our fog) and realize that there are some things that we should change to make things better for our WS.

<small>[ May 21, 2004, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: havinghope? ]</small>

Hi havinghope,

I just hopped on and haven't read RLL's post that you are discussing but I had to comment on what you just said here.

I have heard this many times but if we all agree that the WS is 100% responsible for having the A *THEN WE NEED TO STOP BLAMING THE BS. I don't care if the BS was abusive or treated the WS like a King or Queen.There is absolutely NO reason to commit adultery.

The WS has a duty to end the marriage before making such a choice.It solves NOTHING.In my case,I may not have been a perfect wife,no one is perfect of course, BUT I had NO clue that my WH was THAT unhappy to think about and then commit adultery because of unfulfilled needs,change of scenery or whatever the heck he was thinking.

It infuriates me to think that any BS would accept any blame or part in this disgusting turn of events.If a WS is so unhappy then he or she needs to express it CLEARLY to the BS,or go to counseling or read books or have a serious discussion,or any number of OTHER options.If the WS gets no where with the BS and has given it their best try for a good deal of time then they should leave.

See,there are respectable and proper ways in which to deal with problems and issues in a marriage and Adultery is not one of them.This notion that if we,the BS's were such a way,then the WS wouldn't feel a need to stray.BULLCOOKIES!

Let's be real here and put the blame where it should be.Thanks for listening.

O

<small>[ May 21, 2004, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

While I do agree that your spouse is doing the best he can for where he is in recovery, [in the beginning of withdrawal] I would not agree that you are in any way responsible for his affair. He is 100% responsible for his affair. You never made the decision for him to enter into an affair.

I think its important that he understand that he is FULLY responsible for the affair.

Now, you are FIFTY PERCENT responsible for the condition of the marriage that led to an environment which made him vulnerable to an affair.

See the difference?

As SH would say, you were responsible for the environment that made him vulnerable to have the A...but the WH chose to enter the A on their own. They should have stopped, come to the BS BEFORE entering it. Does that make sense??? WS's should never blame the BS for any part in the A itself..

Alright all right. I said in my post that I don't think it gives them the right to have an A.

October - you are right in the fact that the A is there fault and that we are not responsible.

I like the way ML stated it. We are 50% responsible for the state of the marriage. I do believe if the marriage had been in a better state than WS would not have strayed. If all of WS needs were being fulfilled then WS would not be looking for something else.

I do NOT in anyway think that BS is responsible for the affair the WS is and he/should have spoke up sooner but we do have some responsibility and I don't think that we look at that because we are always saying how bad WS has treated us (and they have don't get me wrong I have been through hell like the rest of ya'll) and we are not innocent.

I read a post last night on here from a BW who was saying how perfect her marriage was and she had no idea why her WH would have an A. Well as a BS we have a responsibility to look at our Pre-A marriage and find out what the issues were. There were issues, I am sure.

I agree with you completely. It requires huge strength for a BS, not to just become a ‘victim’ and wait for the WS to put in all the work. Don’t get me wrong, I can wallow in self pity as much as anyone, but sooner or later we have to roll up our sleeves and do our bit (even if it is only us who is willing). After all ‘God helps those who help themselves’.

It is very easy to focus on the WS’s faults and numerous ways we have been wronged, but what good does it do. The real courage comes when we can look at ourselves and take responsibility for our own failings. It is only when we can do this, that the WS can recover their faith in the marriage. They need to know that they are not investing their efforts, only to accomplish the same old broken M.

I failed my H big time with SF. I didn’t mean to. It wasn’t done to hurt him. However, it’s only now that I am realising the enormity of his pain. It makes me feel sick to know just how deeply he’s been hurting over the years. Communication about this problem was so painful, that we just gave it up. We were afraid of it. Instead, we focused on all the good things we had together and tried to ignore the bad. The radical honesty thing has really made me understand what we were about. We were so busy being smug about how wonderful our marriage was and didn’t communicate honestly about the negative things. Not talking about it, does not make it go away.

I am no longer afraid of negative communication. Every conversation hurts like hell, but as long as it is honest, it can only give us more tools towards understanding and recovery. I will never again allow fear to protect me from truth.

This has been the biggest learning curve of my life and I don’t intend to waste this knowledge by beating my H around the head with his A.

He’s got far more soul searching to do than I have and for that I pity him. I’ll support him in his search in any way I can, but that is ultimately his job.

We both have our jobs to do, together and individually.

Ok,ladies.I still have to respectfully disagree.I have heard people say that each one of us is 50% responsible for our share in how the marriage is pre-adultery BUT I don't buy it.It still puts blame on the BS because if you say that a BS was such a way that it makes another "vulnerable" to an A then that is blame.

No matter how the BS makes the WS feel,it is still not a reason to contemplate or even carry out adultery.Like I mentioned before,if things with my WH and I were so bad that I could no longer get any needs met or I felt abused or even if I felt good in my marriage but was tempted to have an A,it is still MY choice.No one makes it for me but ME.

It's like blaming the parents for a son that goes out and kills someone.Well,the parents may have made the childhood of the son a pretty bad one BUT that doesn't mean the parents MADE the son murder.If we go around and start blaming other's for our actions no matter what we are hit with in life,then that is a sorry state to be in.I can see the lawsuits now.

Take me for an example,I have gone through my parents'alcoholism(both),verbal abuse from father,divorce,my dad's suicide attempt and being the only child to deal with them both my whole life.This is all true BUT I did not go out and commit adultery,I did not go out and hurt anyone,my choices are MINE and they always will be no matter what other influences I have had in my life.

I could have become an alcoholic too,drug user or adulterer or try to off myself too because of my lousy childhood.But instead,I made a conscious effort to stop that cycle and be the best I could be in every area of my life.

JMHO of course. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

O

Oops double post

<small>[ May 21, 2004, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Horizon -

You situation sounds so much like me and I agree with you 100%.

I also failed my husband miserably with SF. The issues that I had I used to hurt my WH and it was not right. We too tried to have conversations about it but they always turned out negatively so we both ignored the problem till it was almost too late (don't feel like it is too late now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

Both my WH and I have issues to work out both individually and together. We both have to focus on our faults in our broken marriage and fix them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This has been the biggest learning curve of my life and I don’t intend to waste this knowledge by beating my H around the head with his A.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't want to beat my husband over either. He has had enough hurt. I feel like the most important thing to do now is look at the future and the changes we should make to get us to the happy marriage we should have had years ago.

Sorry O -

I was posting at the same time as you. So you don't feel that the BS has a responsiblity for the state of the marriage pre-a?? I don't think anything should justify someones actions. My WH choose to have an affair - I did not choose that for him, nor did I choose to do that myself. However our marriage was not 100% what it should have been pre-a so I am responsible for that relationship because it was part mine.

WS have caused tremendous pain to their BS but I am sure none of us can sit here and say that at some point pre-a we did not cause pain or heartache to them. WS were looking for something to fulfill their needs. They made a mistake and choose the wrong thing to fix it but we can learn from this mistake right??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong> Ok,ladies.I still have to respectfully disagree.I have heard people say that each one of us is 50% responsible for our share in how the marriage is pre-adultery BUT I don't buy it.It still puts blame on the BS because if you say that a BS was such a way that it makes another "vulnerable" to an A then that is blame.

O </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OG, no one is saying that the BS is any way responsible for the affair. Saying that the BS is partially responsible for the condition of the marriage [as they most often ARE] is not saying they are responsible for the affair. As you said, and we have all agreed, there is no excuse for having an affair.

However, as in HH's case, she made her H vulnerable to an affair by not meeting his needs for years on end. If a woman is starved at home year after year, that woman will be overcome with desire and temptation the first time she encounters an all-you-can-eat buffet. She will become obsessed with the buffet because it meets a need that was otherwise starved.

That is what Harley means when he says that often BS's are partially resposible for the condition of the marriage that led to the affair.

This why the MB principles are so successful in restoring marriages. It understands this underlying dynamic and offers a program [Plan A] that is designed to correct this lack in the marriage.

But that certainly does not apply to every situation. There are examples here of WS' who do not have affairs because of conditions in their marriage, but because of other reasons.

See,

Now wouldn't it have been infinitely better to try and solve your problems by talking then by the WS's going out to find needs elsewhere? So you may ask,well I might not ever have realized how bad things were if this A didn't happen.Well, I don't agree with that either.I really think that in this epeidemic of Adultery in this country,we really need more education out there on just how to be better communicators,lovers' and married people.

Marriage has taken such a hit and I think it is a very complex situation but we all have to have a basic understanding of how to be married.Like Frank Pittman says.In school,we barely get much education of how to create life and sexuality but virtually no education on how and what it means to be part of a marriage.

And with so many entering into marriage for all the wrong reasons(as Frank Pittman says again,"Marriage is supposed to make you MARRIED"),we need to demystify all the romantic notions of marriage,not that it shouldn't be included but it's not all that marriage is about.There is so much more to learn.Why should it take a crisis of this magnitude to wake us up? The fear of losing before we don't take for granted?

O

I missed all these posts and missed the ‘50% responsibility for the affair’ comment.

Please know that I take absolutely no responsibility for the A, only for the state of our marriage.

I just wish my H agreed. He thinks I should take some responsibility for the affair and I refuse to. He swears he will never change his mind on this issue. I really hope that he does in time though, because it puts a huge strain on my ability not to LB!!

Havinghope? Good for you.

It is so difficult to recognize the WS,s pain, when the BS’s whole world has been bulldozed. It is however, the only way to move forward.

I feel the same as you. Our marriage could have been fabulous, but we let each other down. The future is what matters now. We have all been given a second chance, BS and WS. All we can do now is make sure we don’t blow it by sweeping everything under the carpet and not learning anything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Horizon:
<strong> I missed all these posts and missed the ‘50% responsibility for the affair’ comment.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I must have missed it too, because I never saw anyone say she was "50% responsible for the affair." Where did you see this?

On the very first post. I think it was a slip.

Mel,

I understand where you're coming from but I still think it puts blame on the BS.I would really like to see a change in the "dynamics" of relationships where the communication of said needs is an extremely important one and not met only after a catastrophic trauma(adultery) has taken place.This is where education comes in and what I described in my post just before this one.

We have the capacity as humans to make choices and changes in our lives.The buffet analogy isn't lost on me but instead of being starved for (insert need here) and going at the first temptation or chance a person gets to have those needs met is to me,acting on impulse only.Which also is the starter for adultery.If a person is so "starved" for a certain need in their marriage,it needs to be worked on in every possible way and if it is an issue that cannot be worked out after much time,consideration,counseling,or what have you,then the marriage should be ended if no solution is made.Adultery cannot and should not ever be a choice to solve this issue.

IMO,we have to make Adultery a thing of the past.And how we do that is start at the beginning...educating couples who are going to get married.Maybe MB a prerequisite before marriage?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am only discussing what HH said to Horizon's post in her first response here.I have not read her story which I eluded to.

o

ML and Horizon -

I stated it in my first post but I misspoke myself. I do not feel I am "50% responsible for the A". I am however 50% responsible for the state of my marriage before the A. I don't think my WH feels I am responsible for the A but he does feel that I treated him incorrectly before the A and I agree with him. I did neglect my husbands needs for years (a reason for him to have an affair no but still happened) and he bellied up to the buffet all right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> !

I think that we have to look towards the future and make our marriage what it should have been.

O - I agree with you that the state of marriages is insane and that there should be more help for people who need to learn to communicate better in their relationship. I know for a fact that this was a huge issue for WH and myself. Do you think you had any pre-a issues in your marraige or was it perfect and your WH just failed you???

I personally feel that both my WH and I failed each other and thats how we got into this mess.

Thank God for MB!!

Octobergirl

I hate to be a ‘yes’ girl, but I agree with everyone!!

If a person is starving, they should make it clear just how tempting the buffet is looking.

Being unable to communicate has to be the biggest failure of all, no matter what needs aren’t being met.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong> Mel,

I understand where you're coming from but I still think it puts blame on the BS.I would really like to see a change in the "dynamics" of relationships where the communication of said needs is an extremely important one and not met only after a catastrophic trauma(adultery) has taken place.This is where education comes in and what I described in my post just before this one.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OG, I think we are coming at this from very different angles. You are talking about what SHOULD BE and I am talking about WHAT IS. Sure, the WS should have handled the marital problems differently, no one would disagree with that.

But all the shouldhaves in the world won't address WHAT IS. And that is where Harely is coming from when he says that both parties are responsible for the state of the marriage. That is just a simple truth in most cases. The fact that the WS chose a destructive path in response to a bad marriage does not erase the fact that BS contributed to the poor state of the marriage.

I do agree that it puts partial blame on the BS, and it is supposed to. The BS is almost always partially to blame for the condition of the marriage. However, the BS cannot be blamed for any part of the affair since he/she never had a choice in that decision. The BS did, however, have a hand in the condition of the marriage.

And those conditions cannot be corrected if they are not addressed so it does no good to pretend them away. Hence the importance of Plan A and the importance of meeting that spouse's needs. See what I mean?

<small>[ May 21, 2004, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Yes communcation is the issue for all of I am sure. I would love to learn more about communicating with my WH and others. If we had been better communicators we might have eliminated our A.

Anybody read any good books on Communication?