HOGWASH! Unless you were absolutely horrible, so much so that he/she wanted to hurt you, you were in no way responsible for the affair.

No marriage is perfect. No one person can meet all of the others needs 100% of the time. When a marriage has it's rough spots, both partners are equally responsible for trying to iron them out. Both are equally responsible for trying to keep the other happy. When one chooses to be irresponsible selfish and cowardly by running from those problems rather than working on them, he/she is in essence saying that he/she is the only one who matters! If an affair is the way one spouse chooses to make himself feel better, he is showing that the family is insignificant compared to his own desires. The spouse is nothing more than a bug to be squashed on his way to selfish indulgence.

I love my husband and I always will, but my opinion of him has been changed forever. I don't know if I could ever feel safe with him again. After 23 years he so easily tossed me out like an unwanted stray in order to follow a hard on (sorry but that's what it was)

Don't let your WS blame you for his/her affair. You may have some responsibility for the marital problems, but he CHOSE to treat you like you were nothing and replace you with a stranger. That certainly didn't help the marriage! He was thinking only of himself.

When my h left he left behind a wife who was shattered. He left behind a wife who had no idea he was that unhappy, he led me to believe he loved me very much and he WAS happy. Even as he was planning his escape he was telling me how happy he was with me. It is so wrong! Marriage has no guarantees, I understand that. Marriage doesn't always last forever. If you are unhappy you WORK on it, if nothing changes and you can't find happiness with your spouse you get divorced before you bring another person into your life. When a man leaves for another woman he leaves his wife with nightmares every night of seeing him with her. He leaves behind a wife who feels like she was easily replacable. If he chose instead to work on the marriage, try everything including counseling THEN leave if nothing works, his wife would not be nearly as devastated. Of course that wouldn't be nearly as much fun for him, and since no one else matters why shouldn't he just find some s*** and have his fun while his wife is left behind dying inside.

BS The affair was not your fault!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BS The affair was not your fault!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did someone say it was?

yes and no. I'm reading a lot of self blame here. It usually starts out with something like "I'm partially to blame for his affair" then after others post a reply telling the BS that the affair was not their fault etc. it changes to "but I wasn't a good wife".

I think too many WS convince their wife/husband that she/he is to blame for the affair. There's way too much "I wouldn't have done this if YOU...." garbage. I heard it myself. I was given the most rediculous excuses <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I will tell you what concerns me even more. Is those who can't differentiate between taking responsibility for the affair and taking responsibility for the state of the marriage.

There really is a difference and I see this knee jerk reaction when it is pointed out that often the BS is partly responsible for the conditions in the marriage that LED to the affair.

That does not mean that the BS is ever responsible for the affair, but I fear that some can't see the difference.

And not being able to see the difference is very dangerous to any marriage, because that means the problems in the marriage will probably never be solved.

Well the drill here is that it was partially your fault. At least the part that led up to the A. However I believe that is not always true.

I think some people, for whatever reason, have a hole in their heart. It can never be filled. That is the way my WH is.

In the order of things, I should have had the A. My WH has not taken care of my EN's for years. And yes, I did try to talk to him about it.

But he is the one that had the A. It is just not something I could ever do. I am more the type to keep on keeping on, hoping things will get better.

Still the program here has really helped me. I have made changes, and am moving forward without him. I hope that he has a nice life, but doubt that he will. He will drag his problems to his relationship with OW, and she will bring hers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
<strong> Well the drill here is that it was partially your fault. At least the part that led up to the A. However I believe that is not always true.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. It is not always the case that the affair stemmed from problems in the marriage. But I don't believe MB presumes this.

<small>[ May 21, 2004, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

believer, I know it isn't always true.

ML, it isn't a knee jerk response, it is my honest opiniion. The BS may contribute to marital problems that lead to MC. She/he may even contribute to the breakdown of the marriage that leads to divorce. The only thing that leads to an affair is when the WS who lacks integrity morals honor and decency, meets another person who lacks integrity honor morals and decency.

<small>[ May 21, 2004, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: toomanylies ]</small>

toomanylies, I believe it is a knee jerk reaction because it is never couched in sound reasoning, but rather whipped up, angry emotions that can't be defended rationally. You can't make a blanket statement that all WS's are immoral, indecent people. It is simply not true. [it is true in some cases, tho]

The truth is that the BS' most certainly can contribute to marital problems that make the WS vulnerable to an affair. We see it every day in this forum. It happened in my marriage.

When a spouse goes years and years without having their needs met, the result can often be an affair. Even the most decent, moral man can be left vulnerable to an affair when he is starved for years on end. That is no excuse for an affair, but the BS has to take his part of the blame for the state of the marriage.

In short, the WS is 100% responsible for the affair, the BS is usually* 50% responsible for the state of the marriage that LED TO the affair.

And then we have those who commit adultery simply for no other reason than they don't know right from wrong.

*exceptions noted

Yikes - I think you are exactly right. I think some people just cannot do the work of a marriage. It is easier for them to just move on.

I know tons of people whose marriage was a lot worse than mine. But they are still in the trenches, doing the best they can.

ML, you are always reasonable and most of the time right. I disagree with you on this though. I think most people have been "vulnerable" to an affair, but I believe that there are character differences between those who act on it, and those who don't.

I did act on it when I was young and immoral (yes I was immoral) but I am a better person now.

I agree with you 100%. People often blame unmet needs as a reason to have an affair. I believe that is a very poor excuse and often the person who has the affair is the one who is guilty of not meeting needs or of love busting.

To have an affair is perhaps the worst form of disrespect for the person that one is supposed to love, honor and protect.

i am not argueing that an A is 100% wrong, disrespectful and extremely damanging.

but there are other parts to the marriage vows, the one that says i will love and cherish you. i realize that vow is not as easy to determine when it is broken as in the case of infidelity, but come on, breaking that vow is just as damaging. my H admits he choose to disconnect from me years ago, because his needs were not being met. he could of choosen to communicate with me, go to MC, read books, WORK ON THE MARRIAGE. he choose to disconnect instead. and he did not openly admit to his decision. he stayed married, he stated over and over, everything is fine, no need for MC. the problem is this or that, not our relationship.

in my eyes that counts as breaking marriage vows too. i'm not going to argue which is worse, because i do believe infidelity is much worse, but choosing to not work on your marriage also very damaging.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by toomanylies:
[QB The only thing that leads to an affair is when the WS who lacks integrity morals honor and decency, meets another person who lacks integrity honor morals and decency. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By all means, prop yourself up, pat yourself on the back, and rest easy at night knowing you would not lower yourself to the scumbags who have affairs.

You are better than that. You'd never do anything that lacked integrity, honor, morals or decency.

Nothing.

Right?

Never cheated on your taxes, never written a bad check, never late paying a bill when you had the money, never lied, never flirted, never coveted anything in your heart?

Even the Bible says that "ALL HAVE SINNED."

Are you really better than your wayward spouse?

No, the BS is not responsible for the affair. Yes, the BS is at least partly responsible for the state of the marriage that left the WS vulnerable for the affair.

If you prefer to think that you were a wonderful spouse and that your wayward had no reason on earth to want to leave you, then by all means go ahead. And be sure to let your wayward know what lowlifes they are. In fact, remind them often.

If you want to recover your marriage, you may want to begin to put yourselves in your waywards shoes and think about the despair that led them to do something so life-shattering as having an affair.

Dr Harley makes his living on the premise that both spouses contributed to the state of the marriage which made it vunerable to an affair.

And for most couples that is an accurate assessment.

"By all means, prop yourself up, pat yourself on the back, and rest easy at night knowing you would not lower yourself to the scumbags who have affairs." no need to pat myself on the back. There's a lot of us who wouldn't lower ourselves that much.

"Never cheated on your taxes, never written a bad check, never late paying a bill when you had the money, never lied, never flirted, never coveted anything in your heart?" are you serious? Are you really comparing being late paying a bill to adultery?!

" Are you really better than your wayward spouse?" not "better" he is probably smarter than I am. He is better at a lot of things than I am, but even he would probably tell you that I have more integrity.

"If you want to recover your marriage, you may want to begin to put yourselves in your waywards shoes and think about the despair that led them to do something so life-shattering as having an affair." "despair"? That's almost laughable! he had an affair (actually several) for no other reason than he wanted to and he had the opportunity. I gave him absolutely no reason to do that until AFTER he crushed my heart. I am a nice person, easy to get along with. I have taken too much and remain "nice" even through all of it. I don't say hateful things to him. He does what he does because he can. He knows I'm not going anywhere. That part IS my fault! I WISH that I had as much to "despair" about as he does! I WISH that I married someone who treats me with the same love and respect that they get FROM me.

toomanylies,

i say this will all sincerity. i am sorry for the pain you are feeling. that is what this post is about, isn't it? i started to get a bit defensive myself here, but that will not help anything. i am thinking you are feeling bad right now and i am sorry for your pain.

i am finally able to go home now (had to work till midnight!!) good-night

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you want to recover your marriage, you may want to begin to put yourselves in your waywards shoes and think about the despair that led them to do something so life-shattering as having an affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Adding my thoughts here, too...

My WH's "dispair": The house wasn't clean enough because his W (me) was working long hours doing her part to keep everyone materially happy. The kids weren't well behaved, also his W's (my) responsibility in his eyes. His job was to sit in his recliner and relax and watch TV like any good man would after a hard day at work.

But apparently his disorganized house and ornery kids got to him. He has an anger management problem and has made it clear many times that he is the "man of the house" and his way is the way it needs to be. (I agree as long as his way is the way of respect and protection of his wife and kids.)

Along came a wild, carefree 25-year-old who loved to party--something I gave up when DS was born and I became a Christian. And WH being almost 39 feels all young again with 25-year-old. No cares, no responsibilities, nothing but booze and drugs and Harley rides and new tattoos.

Dispair????!!???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Try midlife crisis or second childhood--or just never growing up in the beginning.

And I will add one other thing--I was once young AND immoral, and didn't take my vows as seriously as I should have years ago. I ended up having a brief A. Was it because of utter dispair?? NO! Granted, my H was drinking heavily at the time, and was gone frequently. I was lonely, very lonely. I had a new baby and was feeling rather down about myself. Dispair?? No. Supidity and immorality and wanting to feel loved. Yes. I understand why it happened, and how I need to protect myself so it doesn't happen again. It is very easy to get into if you're not careful. But it is WRONG. Nothing justifies it. NOTHING!

LL

LordsLady you wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dispair????!!???? Try midlife crisis or second childhood--or just never growing up in the beginning.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I tried these excuses for my h's A in the very beginning...NOT!

Why is it so hard to think that we BS's may have not been very loving, careing, kind or thoughtful?

That may be we should have put our s's and our M ahead of the needs of EVERYONE else at least part of the time???

How about taking a second from our own "feelings" and realize our W/H/W's might have honestly felt despair~isolation~feeling un-loved~ uncared for ~ and unappreciated???


Blessings,
Atruheart

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong>

Dispair????!!???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Try midlife crisis or second childhood--or just never growing up in the beginning.


LL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Try alcoholism? I have posted to you numerous times that your H's affair had nothing to do with unmet needs so I am puzzled why you are here taking umbrage at a suggestion that doesn't even apply to you. Harley says it is impossible to meet the needs of an alcoholic and I have shown you his words. So what is all this umbrage about?

Your exception, however, does not disprove the rule that the entire Marriage Builders program is built upon: most affairs occur because of unmet needs in the marriage. Granted, there are exceptions, but exceptions don't disprove the rule.

i feel the same way.i may have been guilty of not meeting my wifes needs,but my needs were not being met either.i read somewhere that in that case there is sometimes two affairs,h and w.and if not,its because of lack of oppurtunity.bull****!!!!i didnt flirt with women.i didnt tell the women i work with that they were beautiful.i didnt compliment everything about them day after day.i didnt keep telling the women i work with how there husband was the luckiest man alive.men give affection for sex....women give sex for affection.the reason i didnt have an affair also was that i wasnt looking for an opportunity!if i would have been,i probably would have found one.if you are unhappy or missing something in your marriage,then you let your spouse know about it!tell them or write the a little note."YOU DONT EVER TELL ME IM BEAUTIFUL,YOU DONT EVER COMPLIMENT ME AND THERE IS A MAN I KNOW THAT IS DOING THIS AND IT MAKES ME FEEL GOOD."then i bet you will see a big change in your needs being met.(after spouse gets over what you just told them.but it will be easier to get over than an affair).but most WS'S wont do that because they enjoy what is going on.they like the excitement of something new and risky.they are physically attracted to this person and probably thought about having sex with them before this person started meeting their needs.my wife told me that men were always flirting with her.alot of older men told her she was beautiful and hit on her,but she didnt fall in love with them.she feel in love with the attractive,well groomed,clean cut 30 year old that told her the same things.she even told me a few times that she just felt sorry for him.every time your car breaks down you dont burn it or go buy a new car.you fix it and go on.unless you see a better deal.then just drop the other car and go after the new one.when asked"why did you buy a new car?OH,THE OTHER ONE RAN OUT OF GAS,AND THEN I HAD TO GET THE OIL CHANGED IN IT,AND THEN I HAD TO WASH IT."so basicly,it was the other cars fault.it made you buy a new one.GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!i guess if i dont cook supper tonight,i will responsible for my wife starving to death!wake up,people!