</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by No Pity:

Why would a spouse who was feeling depressed, desperate, and hopeless enough to cheat in their marriage want to put themselves back into a marriage that was not good to begin with, and now has the added element of having a BS who thinks of themselves as a better person? [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Easy answer....they don't want to be back in the marriage. That is why most of us came here in the first place.

edited to add:

My lovely wife had found what she thought was a soulmate. A friend that listened to her and made her feel special. When comparing the fantasy of that and the reality of a bused up marriage it is a pretty easy choice on the surface. But at some point, sooner or later, a sense of awareness sets in and if the BS has looked hard at themselves and what they contributed to the state of the marriage and tried to change what the BS had contol of (thier actions) then returning to the marriage becomes a viable and often times the better of the two choices.

When my lovely wife confessed her two A's to me I didn't become a better person. Nothing about my character changed. I didn't gain more integrity, class or all of sudden posess an air of superiority exuding from my continence (or countenance).

What did happen is my lovely wife viewed herself (to a point) as having less integrity than me. Although I pretty much evened that up 8 months later with my own affair. After my affair I saw myself as scum. People didn't have to put themselves above me because I put myself below them.


Anyway back to the original question...Was I, as a BS, partially responsible for my lovely wife's affair?

Most definately.

<small>[ May 25, 2004, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: d_rose ]</small>

Topic of the thread was weather "BS are responsible for the A.

I am sure your question is viable ,, and emotional and some BS may answer it .

A gentler WAT?

Hmmmm, now THAT'S concerning! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Long time readers here are chuckling.

Actually, I haven't intended to change my demeanor over the course of this, er, exchange.

Let me make one thing clear that may not yet be apparent to you, being a newby.

Regardless of what a BS thinks of their WS, i.e., lesser a person or not, communicating any derogatory judgements is SOOOO not Plan A. I didn't do this and we universally advise other BSs not to do this. Most would rather remain married than be right.

Anyway, yes, you took my bait. You made the statement in so many words that BSs ought NOT to think of themselves as better than their WSs and I merely took you up on your challenge. In fact, I took your bait, but you apparently didn't know you were trolling or didn't know there were gamefish in the area.

I was secretly hoping you would toss out the "judge not, lest you shalt be judged" argument, but alas, you failed me on that one. It's one of my favorites.

A pity, Pity, that you do not know my story. If you did, I doubt you would contest that the infidels are pond scum. Four years later, it still boggles the minds of our community.

So what is your agenda? Justification of the past or sincere growth?

WAT

I am asking BS's to ask themselves why a WS would want to return to a marriage where one person lords their morality over the other.

maybe because the WS prefers being with someone he/she can trust. Maybe because when the fog clears he/she realizes that the OP does not take monagomy seriously, and the R with OP is likely to fail eventually. Or maybe he/she figures that if the BS is willing to give the marriage a chance after being hurt so badly, the WS is willing to do the same even though he/she knows that the BS opinion of the WS isn't as high as it once was. I think if you gave the heart a choice of which position it would choose to be in, the heart would choose anything over being crushed the way a BS' heart is crushed. I wouldn't like it if my h lost some respect for me, but it would beat the hell out of the visions of him in bed w/another woman!

Perhaps you think that your wife should (should have ?) just forgave and forgotten and treated you as if you were the greatest thing on earth? Do you think that she should blame herself for what you did? It floors me when WS seem angry that their BS has a lowered opinion of them after an affair. You lowered yourself , she didn't cause that. I can see how eventually the BS can regain the respect he/she once had for WS IF the WS truly changes and is genuinely remorseful, but judging by your posts I don't think your wife was given any reason to think you had genuine remorse. When a WS blames the imperfect marriage for their bad behavior, he/she doesn't feel any real remorse. Why would you? It wasn't your fault.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by toomanylies:
<strong> I am asking BS's to ask themselves why a WS would want to return to a marriage where one person lords their morality over the other.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not a good strategy. A no brainer Plan A no no.

Two different things:

1) a BS believing he/she has higher morals, and
2) ramming that down the throat of the WS.

I don't think anybody asked the specific question of "lording" morals over the WS. There should be NO debate on this. Period.

WAT

that's right WAT. I can think it, but I don't say it. Actually I do say it, but I say it here on this board, not to him.

Its funny ,, with these topics , we are playing word games .

I noticed another topic simalar,

Everyone will look at this and can really see it a different way ..

BS are not responsible for the A in any way shape or form .
YET they are said to be 50% responiable for the STATE OF THE MARRIAGE witch made WS vulnarable for the A ..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Hello we can take that as if ya didn't leave the M in that state I wouldn't have an A <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
EXCUSE be given !

The state of the M being broken is 50/50 I agree ,now not meeting EN so they choose the A = excuse .....

Like TOO said from opening statement ,,, there are plenty of other things that WS could have done including suck it up like some BS where doing while not getting needs meet .

NOw I know thats part of the problem as well .

So yes the PRE A issues do have to be addressed BUT lets face it to get to that point you now have to tackle the hurdle of the A issue ...

witch brings the WS back to twisting the pre-a issue as the cause IE EXCUSE

ITS a word game ,, wouldn't it be easier for the WS just to admit they F'ed up and they where 100% wrong and wanted to just run around and forget they where M .

Ok thats just my veiw and I will direct it to myself and my situation so that I don't get wacked and anyone who can relate then ok . LOL

As Paul Simon sang - "Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover" - there are fifty ways NOT to have an Affair!

My WH has taken full responsibility for his A. But, I am not foolish enough to think that I am perfect or better than he. I may have not made him 100% happy, which may have caused him to stray or it could have been he was easily seduced by my former harlot, I mean friend.

My WH said only a few nights ago, that while he was doing all this lying, cheating, etc. - he knew it was wrong and it made him feel so low. He continually beats himself up - I don't want that - I know he has alot more to do than I to heal. He is a man of great intregrity & morals, he believes he has become someone that he once despised.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong>
So what is your agenda? Justification of the past or sincere growth?

WAT </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I might have mentioned that I am neither a WS or BS, so there is no justification for my past. Did you mean someone else's?

Do I have to have want sincere growth to post here?

Because I happen to think there is value in learning communication and writing skills, reading what others have to say, helping others to look beyond the rhetoric, applying what is good into my marriage and life, and maybe have a little <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> fun <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> in the process.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by No Pity
I am asking BS's to ask themselves why a WS would want to return to a marriage where one person lords their morality over the other.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by No Pity
I am also not a WS or a BS. I am a person who happened upon this site in my search for marriage information last year. Not that anyone bothered to ask. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And having been neither a WS or BS, I wonder why the answer matters to No Pity. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Having checked back on No Pity's total of 14 past posts, each has been a confrontational "pot-stirrer."

Hmmmmmm <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Man, this thread is quite interesting! Am I partially responsible for H having an A? NOPE! That was his choice & his alone. Did I contribute to him feeling unloved, undesired, unappreciated, etc. YEP! You bet.

WAT, Too & 3, Sorry, but from the reading of these posts, it really does sound like you're being self-righteous (oh no, that word! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ). Kind of like when the Pharisee prayed, thanking God that he wasn't like that sinner over there.

I find myself no better than my H. No, I didn't choose to have an A, but in the course of my life, my sins have been no worse than his - just different. I really believe it when God said ALL have fallen short. Simply put - that means that we're no better than anyone else on this earth - including our WS's.

JMHO, Y

wat...I'm not going to take the time to answer all your questions nor will I play into your minor premise/major conclusion assertions.

sufdb....would have been simpler to just say you disagree

wat...I have better things to do.

sufdb...ok, but apparently judgeing by the rest of the posts you made you just couldn't tear yourself away...I know the feeling.

wat...You challenged my initial statement but have not made a compelling argument that I was wrong or deluded.

sufdb...I just said what I said, folks including yourself can interpret that however you please.

wat...For the record, I have not described my XW in only derogatory terms and our conflict was not about my anger. Where'd you get that from?

sufdb...you said this....

specifically when she refused to even acknowledge it after it was exposed and set about destroying two families for her own "gain."

I have also read many posts by your trashing your wife, and calling into question her intelligence, her motivations, her morals, you also posted emails she wrote and analyzed them in a derogatory manner....

That seems sufficient to me to establish a pattern of thought/behavior on your part, so I referenced it since you introduced your personal circumstances into this discussion. For all I know your assesment may be correct...but whether is or not.....your anger is palpable through your writings...and most likely plays a role in your position re your wife...but that doesn't make you a bad person, you had cause to be angry...but your wife also reacted to you, and it gets all jumbled up...hence my questions, which you conspicuously avoided, removing the affair as an issue re "better". The point is, you may be sufficiently reactive, and biased re your wife, that your opinion is suspect, which was the other reason I asked about her behavior now... In the end, trying to sort out who is better than someone else is not gonna be easy, unless one is a psychopath or something....in your case, I doubt you are better than your wife, just more skilled at wearing a mask. You suffered a bonafide tradjedy, and so did your wife, but may have let that tradgedy assume too big a role in assessing righteousness. I dunno, but I do know you are one angry man, you just hide it well.

wat...Let me know when you finish reading all 4900+ posts of mine so you can speculate from some knowledge about my situation.

sufdb...I have read all your posts (been here longer than you off and on), all 4900+ and know as much about you as anyone on MB....or as much as you (or any of us) lets people know....otherwise I would not have stated things as I did.

wat...BTW, what was your MB screen name prior to your current one? Perhaps you've had more than two? In April 2003 (when you registered) I stopped posting until December 2003 and since then I have only rarely discussed my long past situation - so you cannot possibly make assertions about knowing my situation unless you were here LONG before April 2003.

sufdb...This is an annonymous board, I have no interest or desire to revisit the past...but have posted under many names, and/or lurked for 4 years....in my own journey.

wat..Or because your assertions are incorrect, you don't really know and you're merely guessing.

sufdb...frankly, I wasn't interested in discussing your personal circumstances (or anyones, that just makes the issue situational, which of course, is the real truth)...the initial comments were general in nature...you switched to your specific circumstances which really rendered the whole discussion pointless....but it was all I had to work with, so I responded accordingly. Ok, I get it, you think your exw is pondscum and her ws behavior "proves" it, end of story. No problem, in your case I disagree, (have no idea about om though, maybe you are better).

I find it interesting that several other people see your anger too....ya know, that probably means you should wonder why.

<small>[ May 26, 2004, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The ones who don't are the ones who cannot find the humility to face the mirror, and thus remain lesser people. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like this WAT...it took me two years to learn this.

Thank you...YOU have made my day!

Low

Geez, I go to sleep on Tuesday nite, just as most of you are waking up to Tuesday morning - and the thread jumps ahead 3 pages while I slumber. Btw it's Buddha's birthday holiday in this part of the world - so can all the scum and the saints drop their weapons and join me in a round of Happy Birthday to Buddha? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The trouble with so many of you is that you interpret things beyond what is being said and thought - you take things to an illogical conclusion (coz it's more fun to flame someone).

Obviously WS's aren't evil. And nor are BS's all good. There are a huge number of variables in any infidelity. Some WS will fall into the totally evil category and some will fall into the totally stupid category and some were just weak or victims of loneliness or poverty or success. Success seems to be a great predictor of unfaithfulness! Especially for celebrities and politicians. And I for one thought that Posh Spice was doing a great job of being wife and mother. Someone should tell Victoria that she is 50% to blame for the state of her M that led to David to rooting around so much. Perhaps she should have insisted he get a proper 9 - 5 job.

BS's are going to cut across the full range of personality and behavioral types too. Added to that is that both BS's and WS's have varying 'value systems' and 'life models' to guide them. It may not be your fault that your value system was incomplete or transferable (not your spouse's fault either). Your previous experiences and your upbringing may not have adequately prepared you for the endless twists and turns of life. Your 'life model' may have been a little haywire too.

I spent 30 yrs of marriage believing that my H was better than me. No problem with that, from my side. I used to think that I got lucky and he wasn't so lucky in getting me. I think I was wrong to think like that, but I did.

I don't think it any more. I lost all respect for my H over his A. As I said, it was a particularly sleazy episode that any man his age would be ashamed of. I am not going to take any responsiblity for the state of my marriage that lead my H to behave as he did. Yet, I know a few of his closest friends who were responsible for encouraging him. One was actively involved with encouraging him during the A.

So, I lost all respect for my H. Since then I have started again to find things that I can respect about him. I very much respect his efforts to work tirelessly at the marriage. I respect his willingness to let me go on and on and on and on.................... to where I am now. Getting a little understanding, at long last.

I mean, really, do any of you care that some of us have well considered thoughts as to why we don't take blame for the state of our M that allowed for the A. Some of you are so intent on holding up the 50% blame banner - even though it serves no purpose for a good number of people on this forum. It's like it's thrust in our faces continually - and when we object, we are insulted for having pride or thinking ourselves too good - or whatever. This attitude is unkind and unfeeling.

It's not just me. This theory does not gel with many people on the forum. Those who know it was true for them are willing to say so. And if people object to it then can't they be left unmolested by those who know more than anyone how difficult this process is?

sufdb - I really doubt you know me better than most others on this board.

That said, at least I haven't tried to hide my "identity." I've kept the same MB name since the beginning which affords me some integrity, I believe. As I suspected, you've posted under several names. I could probably guess a few, but I won't give you the entertainment. And you accuse me of wearing a mask? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So why have you read all of my posts? Because I'm not afraid to speak my mind or challenge conventional wisdom and you like to tussle once in a while?

Well, because you're hiding behind multiple names, I think I'll choose not to pay any more attention to you. You've got something to hide and I don't trust dishonest people.

No Pity - I hope you find what you're looking for here, and I for one think having some fun along the way is healthy and necessary.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by anyname:
<strong> Someone should tell Victoria that she is 50% to blame for the state of her M that led to David to rooting around so much. Perhaps she should have insisted he get a proper 9 - 5 job.

It's not just me. This theory does not gel with many people on the forum. Those who know it was true for them are willing to say so. And if people object to it then can't they be left unmolested by those who know more than anyone how difficult this process is? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyname, does it make you feel more secure in your opinion to continually represent your personal views as those of "many people?" Because you do not represent the views of "many people" here. You only speak for yourself. You are not the self appointed spokesman for BS, let me assure you.

I have been here for years, you have been here for TWO MONTHS and I assure you that you don't represent the views "many." You speak for yourself only.

And while you may choose to get very defensive about this, the fact is that most BS's did play a part in the destruction of their marriage and are honest enough to admit it. Some didn't. Only the BS knows for sure. IF that advice doesn't apply to you, then move on to something that does.

But what is not helpful is pretending that one has had nothing to do with the sad state of their marriage. It is not helpful to avoid that truth, if it is in fact the truth. If it is not the truth in your case, then you can just pass it on by.

Because the point of Marriage Builders is to repair the MARRIAGE, and that can't be done unless both sides are taken into account.

But your posts beg the question................

Why..............

does the lady protest too much?

<small>[ May 26, 2004, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

wat...That said, at least I haven't tried to hide my "identity." I've kept the same MB name since the beginning which affords me some integrity, I believe.

sufdb...believe whatever you want, if you think integrity has anything to do with annonymity on message boards, so be it...personally I have rather different notion of integtity...but I can admire your deviousness with that comment...****EDITED***** if that is how you define integrity...but whatever, the point was to discuss the issue at hand, which you did a modicum of, before digressing off into a bunch of personal posturing...which I guess means you yeild the actual point of the discussion...that being ws'dom has nothing to do with "better" by itself.

wat...As I suspected, you've posted under several names. I could probably guess a few, but I won't give you the entertainment. And you accuse me of wearing a mask? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

sufdb....yawn...so? Your mask is in real life...and last I looked, most if not all the 30,000 + posters here practice annonymity....so your point is.......what?

wat...So why have you read all of my posts?Because I'm not afraid to speak my mind or challenge conventional wisdom and you like to tussle once in a while?

sufdb...I read your posts because you are reasonably articulate, your circumstances were representative of irreconcilleable differences, which is of behavioral interest to me, you are occassionaly funny...*********EDITED**********, and somewhat arrogant in a controlling manner....you are one tightly wound individual emotionally (judgeing by the wealth of data in your 4900+ posts), not sure whether that is simply a temperament thing, or also (probably) foo related also.

Note....remember wat, you just asked "why", and I answered...don't chastise me for the personal observation....or if it bothers you, don't ask me why questions.

wat...Well, because you're hiding behind multiple names, I think I'll choose not to pay any more attention to you. You've got something to hide and I don't trust dishonest people.

sufdb...more yawns....hiding on an annoymnous message board is an oxymoron wat....and a strawman whine to boot. What difference could it possibly make to any discussion re ideas, principles, choices etc.... to have a list of annoynoums ids that everyone has ever posted under....but I agree, if you are unwilling to make your case, then conversation over.

<small>[ May 26, 2004, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

sufdb,

I would like to ask what other names have you posted under? How many are there in total?
Also interested in Why you would feel the need to post under different names? Especially if it is more then just 2.

As I am NOT in this ongoing debate between you and wat, I would appreciate an answer. Unlike wat, I have NO idea what other handles you may have used previously.

And since you will still, as you say, be "anonymous" then I see no reason for you to object.

However, if you decline, please at least let me know why?

What reason could you have for not wanting other posters to read and associate YOUR words with you? Just curious.

Thanks

:::Anyname, does it make you feel more secure in your opinion to continually represent your personal views as those of "many people?"

And does it make you feel more secure in your opinion to continually talk down to me? I noted how many other people in this thread posted opinions the same as mine, hence I used the words "many people".


:::I have been here for years,

Wow and you haven't learned how to play nice yet?


:::you have been here for TWO MONTHS and I assure you that you don't represent the views "many."

And you would be? The self appointed group spokesperson?

:::You speak for yourself only.

And yes, I know, you speak for the group.

:::And while you may choose to get very defensive about this,

It's you that's made me defensive. You engage in bullying tehniques to silence dissenters. This site is mature enough entertain lots of different opinions surely?

::: the fact is that most BS's did play a part in the destruction of their marriage and are honest enough to admit it.

Can you produce any published research in a peer-reviewed journal to support your contention?

::Some didn't. Only the BS knows for sure. IF that advice doesn't apply to you, then move on to something that does.

So you are saying that posters are only allowed to comment on posts that apply to them? Funny, I didn't see that written in the forum guidelines.

:::But what is not helpful is pretending that one has had nothing to do with the sad state of their marriage. It is not helpful to avoid that truth,

I thought my last post was very reasonable, explaining how complicated the back drop is for WS and BS's. I was surprise to see you still ranting at me.

::: it is in fact the truth. If it is not the truth in your case, then you can just pass it on by.

So those who are not as confident as me can be railroaded into believing something that doesn't sit right with them?

:::Because the point of Marriage Builders is to repair the MARRIAGE, and that can't be done unless both sides are taken into account.

Absolute rubbish. Marriages recover perfectly well from infidelity in many different ways. The internet is only 10 yrs old and prior to that people repaired their M's without MB's or Dr Harley. This is not an exact science otherwise all marriages would recover using Plan A and Plan B. That is not the case. You have taken one aspect of MB and said it's the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

If I thought you were willing to read why I don't think it's the truth, I would explain in more detail. But I think you find it easier just to shout at me?

:::does the lady protest too much?

Why don't you say what you REALLY think! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

anyname,

You said this:
Absolute rubbish. Marriages recover perfectly well from infidelity in many different ways. The internet is only 10 yrs old and prior to that people repaired their M's without MB's or Dr Harley. This is not an exact science otherwise all marriages would recover using Plan A and Plan B. That is not the case. You have taken one aspect of MB and said it's the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

True that there are many ways a marriage can recover from infidelity. I don't think we are just talking about internet MB here. The internet has made it much easier for the principles/guidelines of Harley to be known but I don't believe they were started on the internet.

I don't understand how you can honestly say that both parties sides/viewpoints/issues don't need to be taken into account for a marriage to recover. With you stating that you are basically saying that your feelings don't have to matter to you H for your marriage to recover. Maybe I am misunderstanding you but that seems to come accross.

MB isn't the one and only truth but you are posting on it's site, so if you contradict some of it's principles I think you should be prepared to take a little flak for your belief.