Without worshipping at the altar of MB, I would like to say that there are many aspects of MB that some spouses tend to implement almost instinctively.

I think Dr. Harley merely observed the couples that were successful in rebuilding and compiled that info into "Surviving An Affair"

So, I argue that Harley has presented us the BEST options...not the only options. If there is a better way to recover your marriage after an affair, I'd sure like to see it. I haven't yet.

I can only speak for myself, but implementing the EN and Love Bank theories in my own relationship has made a tremendous improvement in my relationship.

MB is sometimes very hard. Sometimes counterintuitive. Requires self examination and humility. But....IT WORKS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is not an exact science otherwise all marriages would recover using Plan A and Plan B </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This statement indicates that you have not read through the MB material in other parts of the site. Plan A and Plan B are not recovery plans. They are for encouraging your WS to end their affair. I would encourage you to re-read the MB principles.

Low

<small>[ May 26, 2004, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

top...Also interested in Why you would feel the need to post under different names? Especially if it is more then just 2.

sufdb...This has absolutely nothing to do with the thread/topic etc...and really of no importance, but I will comment briefly for whatever benefit you get. On-line posting is almost universally annonymous for obvious reasons, it is a security issue in an unsafe world...allowing people to still interact, but safely. And generally the particulars of an individual are not needed for discussion. People change there on-line annonymous ids, for another id all the time, obviously there is no need to have a reason....it is simply something all can do at will....and affects nothing, since 1 id is the same as another from a posting standpoint....the primary reasons people change (besides forgetting them and/or pw, and having to re-register)...is to change their focus (people tend to associate a given focus with an id, much as in real life, but on-line you can become a "new" person at will), people also change to avoid people in real life who may be following them on-line and with whom they don't wish to share the info they are posting...another reason is to avoid conflict with other on-line personas, who may harasss someone, and follow them about for that pupose....sometimes people just change cause they can, they want a "new" outfit, whatever. I have changed ids for all those reasons in various places, at one time or another.

top...And since you will still, as you say, be "anonymous" then I see no reason for you to object.

sufdb...ah, that presumes you have a right (and me an obligation) to expect any response, agreement or objection....of course none of us has such a right...and you were being nosey, so I could civilily ignore you at will...but you asked nice, except for that little piece of transparent manipulation...so I chose to respond.

top...What reason could you have for not wanting other posters to read and associate YOUR words with you? Just curious.

sufdb...that is related to the previous question...in my case, I there is not too much under other ids that is relevant.....and in any event, since this is primarily about discussion, anytime one wants to know my current thinking on something, and the reasons why, all they have to do is ask.....previous positions are obsolete and of no pertinence... whether they are the same, or have evolved.

top...Thanks

sufdb... you are welcome.

I am not responsible for 9/11. I am not responsible for the weather. I am not responsible for my H's A.

I am responsible for nurturing my marriage. I am responsible for protecting my heart against the advances of other. I am responsible for being honest.

My WH and I both had opportunities to have an A last fall. I think the biggest difference is that my Wh had too much pride. He assumed that a good marraige was the only thing you needed to protect yourself from an A. He had pride that he didn't need to protect himself from ow. He was so sure he could never be tempted so there was no harm in being friends. Plus, I was busy with extreme morning sickness.

I've never believed I was too good to have an A. I've felt the temptation and it scared me. I've felt the temptation, knew I was weak, and ran. WH felt the temptation and believed he could handle it. I didn't have more integrity, I just had more fear and less pride.

sufdb,

First, thank you for taking time out to respond.

Second, The only reason my interest was piqued to begin with was because BOTH Yourself and Wat were taking up space ON this thread to discuss it. I respectfully state, "I didn't bring it up".

Next, if you are coming here to make comments but more importantly to give suggestions and advice, shouldn't the person's getting this said advice have some basis to know where it is your coming from? (How else to accomplish this except past posts??) Even if your opinions have "evolved" wouldn't the reader benefit to see the progress of your journey?

YOU also claim that your past responses are NOT RELEVANT. Interesting! That response sounds very much like a WS Deciding for their BS what exactly IS and IS NOT relevant to their life.
Shouldn't the readers have the option to decide for themselves what they consider Relevant?

You probably would enjoy having the same respect regarded to you. (However, perhaps not?).

Some of the concerns I have of posters continuing to get different names is that they may be doing so to basically "argue" BOTH sides of an issue. Also, they may just want to be able to rewrite their own (on line) history.
Don't really see where either of these actions help any one else on the boards, except maybe themselves. Not saying your doing it for these reasons (whatever they are I'm sure they are valid to you).

Anyway, of course you have the right to do as you choose. Never claimed otherwise. Just curious as to the reasons someone would choose to go this route. (on purpose that is, not the person who looses password ect,.) Later and take care

[Sorry, not trying to hijack.....really]

<small>[ May 26, 2004, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

top.. "I didn't bring it up".

sufdb...I know, that isn't an issue.

top...Next, if you are coming here to make comments but more importantly to give suggestions and advice, shouldn't the person's getting this said advice have some basis to know where it is your coming from?

sufdb...nope, is irrelevant, everything anyone posts stands (or not) on it's own merits, and clear for all to see (or ask for further clarification).... If however, one was discussing specific problem resolutions, then some history of efficacy would be valuable...etc.

top... Even if your opinions have "evolved" wouldn't the reader benefit to see the progress of your journey?

sufdb...maybe, but that is pretty much up to the poster...

top...YOU also claim that your past responses are NOT RELEVANT. Interesting! That response sounds very much like a WS Deciding for their BS what exactly IS and IS NOT relevant to their life.
Shouldn't the readers have the option to decide for themselves what they consider Relevant?

sufdb...whoa nelly....we are talking about the arcane considerations re on-line communication....there is no marital relationship here between posters.....instead there is a TOS, and some basic rules of public decorum, civility, and fairplay (usally nice to at least acknowledge responses to you etc.)...no one is decideing anything for anyone....and the "right" to conduct your on-line activities as you see fit (especially something as fundamental as annonymity) far surpasses any other posters "rights".

top...You probably would enjoy having the same respect regarded to you. (However, perhaps not?).

sufdb...I might at times, but have absolutely no expectation of such.

top...Some of the concerns I have of posters continuing to get different names is that they may be doing so to basically "argue" BOTH sides of an issue.

sufdb...and this is a bad thing? Again, one posts for all to see, it either makes sense or it doesn't...regardless of how many sides one has argued....and devils advocacy is a time honored part of discourse.

top...Also, they may just want to be able to rewrite their own (on line) history.

sufdb...self-delusion carries it's own consequences...if one does not realize that...oh well.

top...Don't really see where either of these actions help any one else on the boards, except maybe themselves.

sufdb...various things are helpful to different people, but efforts to post ones thougts as intellecutually honest as possible (meaning minimum posturing, flaming, self-promoting, projection, sarcasm...etc.) is all one should expect or ask for....and IMO that is extremely helpful.

Marriage has it's ups and downs. We are responsible for trying to make it work. If someone chooses to have an affair without trying to work on the marriage, then it was one person's choice. There may have been problems which belong to the couple, but whoever chooses to have the affair makes that choice and is responsible for it.

By the way, I'd bet that no pity is an OW who's MM didn't leave.

:::Without worshipping at the altar of MB, I would like to say that there are many aspects of MB that some spouses tend to implement almost instinctively.

I very much agree with that. Some of the reconcilatory behavior is eerily instinctive. The thing is that no one seems to understand my perspective. I take my hat off to Dr. Harley. What a worthwhile cause he's engaged in. What a basically sound set of principles he's put forward to help people across cultures, national barriers and social settings.

I think it's an amazing feat to see a problem of gigantuan proportions - because of the emense diversity of the problems and people involved, and then forumlate a game plan that can pretty much help most of the people who give the plan a go.

I feel a bit like the Catholic who accepts the Holy Communion, The Trinity and Confession but doesn't believe the Pope is infalible or that the Church should teach no birth control amongst Catholics in 3rd world countries.

anyname

Having an affair is a personal choice. It is not the responsibility of anyone, except the person who makes that choice. So the WS is 100 percent responsible for having the affair. Many other choices are available to anyone considering an affair and yes, that particular choice (as opposed to that person) is not the most moral or ethical choice available.

However, Harley doesn't state specifically that NOT filling ENs is the only way that incompatibility or disconnectivity (is that a word???) occurs. The marital environment is JOINTLY created by the people within it. Many aspects of Harlean theory point to contributions to an environment ripe for an affair. Not filling emotional needs is certainly one of them. Hurting our spouse (LBs) is another. Failing to follow the four rules of successful marriages: not spending enough time, not caring for or protecting our spouses, as well as being dishonest. So a BS CAN and usually does contribute in some way to a vulnerable marital environment.

This concept was hard for me to grasp at first when I came here....because truthfully, and my husband agrees....I was a good and faithful wife who went out of my way to fill his needs. If anyone was failing to have their needs met...it was by far me. He was my world. He doesn't blame me at all for his affairs...and in the beginning...I didn't accept ANY blame either for the state of my marriage. The factors that DID create vulnerability (for my M) had to do mostly the fact that we spent and incredible amount of time apart (for his job). There is no way to remain connected or fill needs or anything when so much time is spent separated. So on the surface, it would seem that I couldn't possibly take any responsibility for that. Well, it was not my choice....but I didn't do much more than complain and cry about it (LB). I didn't negotiate anything different....though I tried...but in negative ways. I was a giver/pleaser type person who allowed my husband to make decisions that were bad for our family instead of standing up for what was important...our time together. Once I did...I had a better marriage.

So even though my contribution may have been indirect...I have no doubt that it had a big impact on the state of my marriage....and the vulnerability of either of us to an affair. Filling needs is only a piece of the puzzle....one that many BS's can point to when trying to understand their spouse's affair...but it's not the only one. These issues are complex.

::::The factors that DID create vulnerability (for my M) had to do mostly the fact that we spent and incredible amount of time apart (for his job). There is no way to remain connected or fill needs or anything when so much time is spent separated. So on the surface, it would seem that I couldn't possibly take any responsibility for that. Well, it was not my choice....but I didn't do much more than complain and cry about it (LB). I didn't negotiate anything different....though I tried...but in negative ways.

Starfish.

This is the trouble. We do not learn Marriage at school. We do our best, out of love for our S's. Millions of married people spend a lot of time away from each other because of work commitments. It's very difficult for a S to say, your job is placing our M at risk so you will have to change it to make things better for the M. In reality, that isn't going to happen, often because it's not that easy to change jobs. It's only when a 'critical incident' occurs that the need for change is compulsary. Both parties put up with the status quo for the greater good of the family.

I too was living apart from my H because of very difficult family circumstances. The times we were together were wonderful, but clearly they were not enough to protect my H from himself. Though, he will tell you that he had the easy end of the deal. He admits he was managing perfectly well with the arrangement, until he was literally approached by a very young pretty female.

Obviously now I realise my H's life model was not sophisticated enough to deal with the situation that confronted him. But going back to yours and my situation, we both acted in good faith. We did the best that we could in the circumtances. We recognised that many families have to bend to disagreeable circumstances and complaining about it seems childish. It's only our tragedy that has caused us to insist on change. Prior to that, we would not have felt we had the right to ask for such a big change from our H's.

Does that make us in any way culpable for the state of the M prior to the A? If that's how other people interpret it then I'll go with their opinion (but I don't have the recovery skills yet to see it for myself). I think you and I were lulled into a false sense of security. I only agreed for my H to go back o/s because I thought he'd be very unhappy if he stayed in his current job. Given that the two choices were both awful for me and only one of the choices was awful for him - I acquiesed. I should have insisted he stay in the miserable job, and ask/tell him to wait for a third option to come up. (how much resentment/depression would that have created?)

It's so easy to be wise in hindsight, but I won't take the blame for trying to do the right thing by my H. We had negotiated a contract between us, that we both agreed to and felt confident would work. Again, one could point to blame at our being naive. We were both 100% guilty of that.

Now, if there is any responsibity for our naivite, then ok. But, the punishment far outweighs the crime IMO. I went from never going to the doctor to them begging me to enter a clinic for the emotionally traumatized. And my poor mother died largely without my presence, because I was too ill to be with her. So maybe I am defensive, because I can't see how people who's H's or W's have jobs that take them away from each other a lot, are meant to see the dangers in that. They think they are being mature about it - and it's like Russian Roulette. But people don't know that until it's too late.

When I mentioned politicians and celebrities, you will notice that they spend a lot of time away from their spouses. A pattern emerges. I now say "absence does not make the heart grow fonder"! I don't know what Posh Spice could have done to prevent David Becham from sleeping around. Drag her babies all round the soccer venus maybe - or ask him to miss a few matches for the sake of the M? There comes a point where you have to have some faith/trust in the person you love.

anyname


I was a giver/pleaser type person who allowed my husband to make decisions that were bad for our family instead of standing up for what was important...our time together. Once I did...I had a better marriage.

I am so new at this---figuring out why I had an A for so long. Starfish, when I read your post, something clicked. My marriage was ripe for an A. I never thought of it like that. My H and I worked opposite shifts, and only had 3 nights together as a family. Slowly, I seemed to drop down on the list....First came new business, kids, smoking, computer, dog, ...then me????? When I look back at the time when I met OM, that's how it was. I remember trying to have date nights w/H. We did. I was and still am in love with H. Believe it or not. I missed being first in his life. After kids, it's okay to be second, sometimes. I believe your marriage has to come first...otherwise, then what? What do the kids have?

I remember my husband being so consumed with work --that's when I met OM at work. BAM!!! He filled the EN H wasn't. The same went for OM. I fought the feelings growing for OM. I couldn't do that, not me. I was shy and innocent. (whatever). A year later, I was having an A. It was scary at first. Then it turned into a habit. I don't know anymore...I'm just trying to get back into the land of the living, and continue hopes and dreams with H. Lately, I've moved up on his ladder of priorities....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Why-me?:
<strong>
I wonder if our society was more orthodox and if we lived under rules as those in other countries or as those when the Bible was more respected. Adulterous people were taken to the city gates and stoned. Those predators who become involved with married women, would see themselves being stoned by the crowds. Many would think it is barbaric, but it happened. But it all depends on the point of view. It is more barbaric to be willing to impart all the pain and agony to the spouse by having an affair, breaking a stable home of innocent children, etc. To top this off, then the WS and counselors argue that it happened because you were not meeting the WS's needs and you should just turn the other cheek and leave it behind as if nothing ever happened. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, if you take a close look at history it was usually the straying woman that was stoned, beaten, or punished in some fashion. As long as men strayed with a single woman and no pregnancies occured then everything was a-okay.

Take a real close look at some of those societies you glamorize and see if you'd really like to live there. Unless you're a wealthy and/or powerful male, life usually sucks in those countries.

April

I read this thread the other day, but didn't want to bring it back up because it seemed so controversial. Now it's not my fault. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I assume 0% responsibility for H's A. Nada, zip, zilch. I had NO part whatsoever in that decision.

I understand about being responsible for the state of the marriage, but what if the WS never let the BS know something was wrong? Like in my case, H never said anything, just figured if he waited, things would get better (magically, I guess, like the laundry fairy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). How the heck am I supposed to work on a problem that has not even been brought to my attention? Under normal circumstances, I'm sure I would have recognized that there was a problem, but the A happened shortly after my dad's death--my intuition was a bit clouded by grief.

OK, I'll make my point instead of rambling. I think it's a very individual thing. Even though there are many similarities when dealing with a spouse's A, there are also many individual variants. And in the end, it really doesn't matter what % each one was at fault, as long as you can move forward and pay attention to each other's needs, and keep the communication going.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Without worshipping at the altar of MB, I would like to say that there are many aspects of MB that some spouses tend to implement almost instinctively. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LowOrbit I think you are very right on that one.

My FWW instinctively went into no contact without even knowing what it was. She instantly urged me to go with her to MC.

Other than zero honesty and openness early on she has done things by the numbers even before she knew what those numbers were.

My personal opinion is that in each and every case reasons/blame whatever are so diffent whether one is a strict adherent to MB principles or not.

Do I blame myself in any way for my FWH being unfaithful (NO WAY)!!!!

Was I in any way to blame for the state of our marriage prior to the affair (GEE I hate that word!) Yeah - but only because I loved him and trusted him too much! I had him on a pedestal!

When he told me (and we had 2 very small children) that we needed more money - I put our kids in day care and went and got a job! That just gave him more time and less pressure to go and be admired by his work colleague while I was busting my a$$ to not only be a working wife but also trying to be a good mother as well. And all the time he was feeling up some 'slag' who was looking for a new man cause hers was screwing around on her!

Nah!!!!!!!!! Not taking any responsibility for their games! He put our marriage in the state it was because of his low esteem and his desperate need to be admired by OTHER people other than his wife!