There regularly are postings about how hurtful affairs are, and why couldn't someone just divorce first..... personally this makes no sense to me as an equality...an affair is about a lot of things, but primarily a life learning experience for all parties....on the other hand, a divorce is a definite ending, no appeal, no reconcilliation.... done, fini, over...and all the legal stuff as well...assets, child support, alimony...


So, here is the question...would you prefer to be served a divorce summons and no affair....or would you prefer an affair occur, with the resultant opportunity to learn much about yourself, marriaqge, behavior...and all that....even if it still ends in divorce...at least the possibility existed for reconcilliation (assuming you wanted it)...as well as substantial personal growth.

Keep in mind that the dynamics of the two scenarios are vastly different...being served divorce papers means a decision to end has been made, and the individual is going to be highly resistant to any efforts to change their mind....an affair, by it's nature, creates a kind of debt to the bs, which they can use (or abuse) if they understand that, and act decisively.

Please do not offer perfect world options.....yes in a perfect world people would be radically honest, voice all their issues, go to counselling with you....give you advance notice of their intent to divorce...blah blah blah. That does not happen in this world....and actually often much of that did happen in the marriage anyways (counselling, complaining etc... things did not improve and people gave up)...In the real world, people divorce or fall into an affair (and a few just continue on in cold, empty, bitter marriages till the day they die...which is no good either). That is what the walk away wife syndrome is about....

note....yes even if served divorce papers one can try to do a plan a, attempt reconcilliation...but the dynamics are much different....that is the point of the question....given an imminent marital ending.....would you prefer (think your chances better) to be dealing with a walk away spouse, or a ws. If so the later, than complaining about how awful the ws is, and why didn't they just "leave" if they were unhappy is hypocritical....and self-servingly manipulative to say to your ws.

<small>[ May 26, 2004, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Interesting question...my H returned from his first IC session and told me that his IC said, "Well, wouldn't you have rather had an A than a D?" Hmmmm? Sure, I guess he would have rather had an A but if tables were turned would he have rather I had an A than serve him D papers?

I would be interested to know if a WS and a BS would differ on the answer to this question.

edited above to add a little more ("note")

I suspect the real underlying issue is rejection.... there is something about being rejected for (supposedly) someone else that just really impacts people (badly).....divorce is rejection too, but not as visceral I guess ....yet the chances of a better marriage, and reconcilliation are better with an affair precisely cause of that visceral response....it is a wakeup call like no other...and the emotional impact is an integral part of likelihood of permanent change (thusly enabling a better marriage to rise from the ashes)....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LosingFocus:
<strong> Interesting question...my H returned from his first IC session and told me that his IC said, "Well, wouldn't you have rather had an A than a D?" Hmmmm? Sure, I guess he would have rather had an A but if tables were turned would he have rather I had an A than serve him D papers?

I would be interested to know if a WS and a BS would differ on the answer to this question. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dang!!! I should have included a question re ws or bs.

sufdb,

I believe the possibility of a reconciliation AND a learning experience is possible through both scenarios but it's never that clear cut.Say I get served papers by my S,well assuming that I never saw it coming,*like my WH's A,I would then try to discover the issues my WH had with me/marriage(as also in an A) and try to reconcile first,as I had/have done.

With only 1/3rd of marriages surviving from an A,the other's D'ing,then I would only want one pain of that magnitude in my life, so I would rather be served.What I am facing now is both scenarios and I would have rather been given D papers and then tried to work on the marriage.I understand that A's can bring about the opportunity to have a better marriage but at such a cost.

People can and do remarry and if two people really want to have another chance at a happy and fulfilling marriage,it can be possible even after a D.

Right now,the only way I don't feel D'd is the legal formalities.I will always love my WH even when I am D and therafter but that won't change his unwillingness to make our marriage and our family his priority.

O

Since A's are supposedly wake-up calls to M problems, I guess a D would be as well.

I would rather get D papers.

Even with D papers, there's still a chance to work it out, discuss issues/problems, etc. WITHOUT all of the terrible hurt and pain that a BS goes through.

sss

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong> sufdb,

I believe the possibility of a reconciliation AND a learning experience is possible through both scenarios but it's never that clear cut.Say I get served papers by my S,well assuming that I never saw it coming,*like my WH's A,I would then try to discover the issues my WH had with me/marriage(as also in an A) and try to reconcile first,as I had/have done.

With only 1/3rd of marriages surviving from an A,the other's D'ing,then I would only want one pain of that magnitude in my life, so I would rather be served.What I am facing now is both scenarios and I would have rather been given D papers and then tried to work on the marriage.I understand that A's can bring about the opportunity to have a better marriage but at such a cost.

People can and do remarry and if two people really want to have another chance at a happy and fulfilling marriage,it can be possible even after a D.

Right now,the only way I don't feel D'd is the legal formalities.I will always love my WH even when I am D and therafter but that won't change his unwillingness to make our marriage and our family his priority.

O </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes, I tried to indicate both scenarios can lead to reconcilliation or divorce....and their is no right answer cause it depends on the people and the circumstances of that particular marriage, but the scenarios are vastly different psychologically....what interests me is the personal opinions that after expressed about this (and said often to the ws...IMO as a means of emotional manipulation)....hence the poll.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There regularly are postings about how hurtful affairs are, and why couldn't someone just divorce first..... personally this makes no sense to me as an equality...an affair is about a lot of things, but primarily a life learning experience for all parties....on the other hand, a divorce is a definite ending, no appeal, no reconcilliation.... done, fini, over...and all the legal stuff as well...assets, child support, alimony...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think an affair is primarily a life learning experience....I think it's a life shattering experience that often ends in divorce anyway and the learning is done with such pain that it's a lesson I think I'd rather skip! Neither is divorce a definite ending. My grandparents divorced and remarried 3 times.

Getting divorce papers or getting the news that my H cheated would be equally devastating...however, at least with the divorce papers I could respect the process. Getting divorce papers is a better way to learn this lesson and it's a much better wake up call than knowing my H is in love with someone else....and they don't mean the marriage is over. I gives the added advantage of preserving integrity...respect for my spouse as well as not completely destroying my trust and confidence. I prefer papers any day!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> When my H told me what his IC said (with what looked like a little weight lifted off his shoulder) I just said, "Well, if my opinion matters...I would have rather had divorce papers."

I would still have tried to reconcile but I could have done so without this added hurt. My H is the man who helped me 'heal my childhood wounds', so to speak...his A just ripped open that scar and poured acid in it...

"I love you but I'm not in love with you" (which I would assume we'd all probably still hear with D papers) would be easier to work through without the added pain of betrayal...not easy...but easier...at least for me.

suf...you're talking braille baby!!! And the thing is...you haven't experienced EITHER one.

I've experienced BOTH. My first husband...served me with divorce papers, but waited to date my friends. My second husband served up two affairs. GIVE ME THE PAPERS!!!!

eddited to add: honestly...it was much easier to get over the divorce than the affairs...no lie. And I still have a really good friendship with my first husband.

<small>[ May 26, 2004, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Gimme the D, thanks.

I take partial responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage. If we can't work it out, ok, divorce me. (No not ok, but if you insist, ok, I won't hold dear H back from finding happiness.)

But don't lie to me, don't cause confusion in our marriage, don't force me to swallow your excuses for non participation in our relationship. Don't put me at risk with diseases. Don't hurt me. I don't deserved to be hurt. I don't deserve the scars WS inflicted. When WS has an A, he loses my trust, my admiration, my respect.

Is a few moments of pleasure worth losing a person's dignity, is it worth the exchange of another ten years of rebuilding trust?

I could have saved four years of my life, and mind you, fertile years of my life, if he served first and then go have his flings. And we'd probably remain friends.

Y'know, looking at all this, IMHO, As are for cowards.
If I'm not right with you, tell me. Shake some sense into me if you have to. Don't creep around behind my back and cheat on me.

<small>[ May 26, 2004, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Ruffled ]</small>

One thing that is missing from the equation I think is "freedom". When my first husband decided he didn't want to be married anymore...was young and had made a mistake and didn't feel ready...it was devastating. I loved him every bit as much as I love the man I am married to now. And yet, that hurt took less time to recover from than the hurt of my second's husband's affairs. My first husband gave me the freedom to pursue my own healing and also find love with someone else. In my second marriage....I was trapped alone with that hurt...not being able to ethically choose what he had already done. I was NOT free...I was still married. It has taken me far far longer to recover from the pain of these affairs...and honestly, I'm not sure the damage that has been done will ever completely heal. My heart has healed from my divorce...in part, because the integrity of the relationship remained in tact for the time that it lasted. I respect the choice my first husband made where I will never respect the choices that my second husband made.

star...I don't think an affair is primarily a life learning experience....I think it's a life shattering experience that often ends in divorce anyway and the learning is done with such pain that it's a lesson I think I'd rather skip!

sufdb...tough lessons tend to be that way. Life is not about pain avoidance (as I know you know)...it is just life....and EVERYTHING is an opportunity, in one way or another...and bemoaning that something has happened squanders that gift... I suspect this poll will somewhat reflect temperament types....the old half full, half empty mindset that runs through our species... I guess myself, I view what is done as done, and immediately move on...looking for the silver lining, I am functionally unable to be negative. One of my biggest heros is Jim (that right?) walsh, who turned his young sons horrific death (a much more awful event than any affair or divorce could ever be) into the salvation of probably thousands of people. I am sure he misses his son, but the man strikes me as understanding that the greater good was worth the sacrifice....especially since it cannot be undone.

People vest way way too much in the breakdown of a relationship, marital or otherwise, instead of embracing the growth opportunity, and following the new paths....for heavens sake, no has died, you don't want to continue it if your spouse doesn't want to be there (regardless of reason) so why embrace misery? Bitterness? or elevate rejection to a level of permanent damage? Rejection is just another fact of life, and easily dealt with, if you are psychologically healthy....and optimistically oriented....the good news about divorce (or affairs) crisis, is it provides the opportunity to get real and stop living in the fantasy that preceeded the reality check. (ie that you are in a great marriage).

star...Neither is divorce a definite ending. My grandparents divorced and remarried 3 times.

sufdb...well, that begs the question of how functional your grandparents were, or the value of the marriage...but anyways the poll is not about whether one can or will remarry...but about what happens now...not that it is a permanent circumstance.

star...Getting divorce papers or getting the news that my H cheated would be equally devastating...

sufdb...for you that is an equality...so makes no difference (geez, that should have been another choice in the poll...sigh).

star..however, at least with the divorce papers I could respect the process.

sufdb...yep, that is implied, and one of the reasons a divorce is less rejecting...

star...Getting divorce papers is a better way to learn this lesson and it's a much better wake up call than knowing my H is in love with someone else....

sufdb...why? maybe knowing your H is in love with someone else gives you emtional information you could not "experience" any other way, and this will impact your reaction (for good or bad)...what do you think?

star..It gives the added advantage of preserving integrity...respect for my spouse as well as not completely destroying my trust and confidence. I prefer papers any day!

sufdb...Integrity has nothing to do with affairs per se (albeit how an affair is handled can reflect integrity)....people have or do not have affairs for specific psychological reasons....a person with great integrity may very well be in such a circumstance....and a person with no integrity may never have an affair.....integrity does not equal affair....affairs are about primal responses hardwired into us and are the same processes/responses that lead to marriage...the only difference between an affair and marriage is labels. People can and do marry all the time for selfish, manipulative reasons, no integrity at all.

As for destroying trust and confidence....yep, definitely something to be looked at.....but trust is not necessarily an issue, and may simply be your inappropriate response....an informed (now) ws may in fact be more trustworthy...but that has to be worked out for sure.

likewise plenty of divorces are "dishonest", where the plantiff wreaked major deceit on on the spouse....so trust is not particularly related to affairs...but to the individual....I really think this all boils down very primally and viserally to rejection for someone else...which also explains why normally "nice" peaceful people feel like "killing" the op....

I think there is a HUGE difference displayed in the character of the one doing the action. One can argue that serving one with D papers is admirable. "I did it because I knew I was going to cheat and did not want to put my spouse through the pain". In having an affair there is nothing repectable. Having an affair is low and cowardice.

Let's see... would I rather be lied to or be told the truth?

Would I rather be unknowingly put at risk of getting an STD (including possibly fatal one) or not?

Would I rather waste time trying to figure out what's with my husband's anger, distance, silence... or to know the score so I can make an informed decision re: whether or not to waste any more time or effort on trying to save a marriage with an adulterer?

Would I rather have my WH and his 'supporters' pretending he is 'trapped' with me, that I supposedly won't 'let' him have a divorce... Or have the truth exposed and being free MYSELF to pursue a more worthwhile marriage?

"Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies" has never been one of my favorite song lyrics.

And as to an affair being a learning experience... divorce can be too. For that matter being honest and faithful can be a learning experience.

I guess if I was the WS instead of the BS I would feel more motivated to find some justification or benefit from adultery. Not that I don't believe in the 'if you're given lemons make lemonade' philosophy. It's just that I also realize that you CAN ALSO learn and grow without betrayal and dishonesty. YES, growth can and should come from bad things that happen in your life... But I feel no need to pretend that selfishly hurting those who should be able to trust you is therefore somehow an OK thing.

You can teach somebody to swim by cruelly tossing them off the dock... or by lovingly giving them swimming lessons. If I had selfishly chosen to do something that would cause my spouse (AND children) intense suffering, I would be too ashamed to try to assure them afterwards that it was somehow for their own good. YES, hopefully there would be recovery (with or without the marriage surviving) and growth, but it still would have been far more beneficial to have a positive outcome resulting from unbroken trust and an intact marriage/family.

Frankly if my WH had put 1/10th the effort into his marriage/family as we've observed him putting into adultery (AND trying to defend/justify it to try to get us to pretend what he and the OW did was OK) we would have experienced PLENTY of growth and benefits. If he had a legitimate complaint or unmet need all he had to do was say so. There's really no excuse to REFUSE to tell your spouse what's wrong while blabbing to an OW and family/friends about problems (some real but solveable - most outright lies). I would have definitely preferred to have him say to me: "I want a divorce because..." I would have then been given the opportunity to work on the real problems and/or been free to pursue a marriage to a more honest and mature mate.

I want and deserve a healthy happy marriage. THAT will always be my # 1 choice. And the BEST way to achieve that is with honesty and respect. Yes, with a LOT of help from God, additional hard work, forgiveness, counseling, changes, accountability, luck... that can sometimes still be achieved after adultery. BUT it's dishonest to pretend that would not have been possible to achieve any other way!

If my WH wants to reconcile (before the divorce is final - too late afterwards) he best not try to justify his adultery as something that was good for us or our marriage/family! THE lesson he needs to learn from adultery is how to protect his wife/marriage/children/family from selfish lusts (his and OW). (AND he had PLENTY of opportunity to learn this lesson WITHOUT committing adultery - He had no business PROMISING he could be trusted if he hadn't ALREADY LEARNED adequate self-control! He shouldn't have 'needed' to commit adultery to simply learn to honor his promises and to not hurt those who trust him.) If he doesn't get it... well then he just won't ever get it again (not from me anyway).

<small>[ May 26, 2004, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

ok, ok, disclaimer here re std's, that is a practical physical concern, I was speaking more to the psychological issues. Agreed the std thing is a biggy, and skews the outcome...but I am not sure that is what particularly causes the emotional reaction....so, for the poll, don't consider std, the affair is all EA, or not std related physical contact.

This keeps up, and I will have to redo the poll to consider these additional issues.

meremortal, I don't have any problems with the discussuion you posted...but that adds qualifies to the poll (the trouble all who post polls have with those who respond <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )...the point of the poll is to ascertain whether folks "see" any difference between the two events, and whether those differences are significant in some way....the poll is NOT about wishing affairs didn't happen, choosing affairs, or celebrateing affairs....the poll is just about whether marital crisis comes about through divorce proceedings or discovery of an affair...and which is more likely to effect a positive grwoth....be it personally and/or reconcilliation.

sufdb...tough lessons tend to be that way. Life is not about pain avoidance (as I know you know)...it is just life....and EVERYTHING is an opportunity, in one way or another...and bemoaning that something has happened squanders that gift...

Well part of the problem is that you didn't ASK me if I thought I could learn from either experience, survive it, flourish after it. You asked which I would prefer. You know I learned about survival from growing up in a physically and sexually abuse home...to become a very well adjusted person who still finds beauty and life in the world. Would I choose to learn those lessons in that way if there was another way? Nope.

I suspect this poll will somewhat reflect temperament types....the old half full, half empty mindset that runs through our species... I guess myself, I view what is done as done, and immediately move on...looking for the silver lining, I am functionally unable to be negative.

Now you know half empty doesn't begine to describe me. Again...you gave me a choice of two hard lessons. Now that I've chosen the one you don't agree with...you're going to label me as negative???

One of my biggest heros is Jim (that right?) walsh, who turned his young sons horrific death (a much more awful event than any affair or divorce could ever be) into the salvation of probably thousands of people. I am sure he misses his son, but the man strikes me as understanding that the greater good was worth the sacrifice....especially since it cannot be undone.

Again...there was no question about what opportunities we might be able to make out of hard lessons...we were just given a choice.

People vest way way too much in the breakdown of a relationship, marital or otherwise, instead of embracing the growth opportunity, and following the new paths....for heavens sake, no has died, you don't want to continue it if your spouse doesn't want to be there (regardless of reason) so why embrace misery? Bitterness? or elevate rejection to a level of permanent damage? Rejection is just another fact of life, and easily dealt with, if you are psychologically healthy.

I didn't die from either experience....and yet, having experienced both I still have a preference. It seems strange to me that having experienced neither...that you get to decide who is psychologically healthy? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

sufdb...yep, that is implied, and one of the reasons a divorce is less rejecting...

Given a CHOICE...what is psychologically LESS healthy than choosing the one that is less rejecting???

star...Getting divorce papers is a better way to learn this lesson and it's a much better wake up call than knowing my H is in love with someone else....

sufdb...why? maybe knowing your H is in love with someone else gives you emtional information you could not "experience" any other way, and this will impact your reaction (for good or bad)...what do you think?

Both of my husband's communicated this same message to me. One of them, did it in a way that I prefer to the other.

star..It gives the added advantage of preserving integrity...respect for my spouse as well as not completely destroying my trust and confidence. I prefer papers any day!

sufdb...Integrity has nothing to do with affairs per se (albeit how an affair is handled can reflect integrity)

Here we will have to agree to disagree. Since the definition for intergrity are as follows: Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code. The state of being unimpaired; soundness.
The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; complete. Honesty; uprightness; rectitude, purity...I think that having an affair is definitely about integrity.

....people have or do not have affairs for specific psychological reasons....a person with great integrity may very well be in such a circumstance....and a person with no integrity may never have an affair.....integrity does not equal affair....affairs are about primal responses hardwired into us and are the same processes/responses that lead to marriage...the only difference between an affair and marriage is labels. People can and do marry all the time for selfish, manipulative reasons, no integrity at all.

We do have have hardwired responses. Integrity is doing the right thing in spite of that.

As for destroying trust and confidence....yep, definitely something to be looked at.....but trust is not necessarily an issue, and may simply be your inappropriate response....an informed (now) ws may in fact be more trustworthy...but that has to be worked out for sure.

My innappropriate response??? I made a choice given the parameters of the poll.

likewise plenty of divorces are "dishonest", where the plantiff wreaked major deceit on on the spouse....so trust is not particularly related to affairs...but to the individual....I really think this all boils down very primally and viserally to rejection for someone else...which also explains why normally "nice" peaceful people feel like "killing" the op....

And those divorces are void of integrity too...I agree. But the fact that some divorces are dishonest...doesn't make affairs any better.

Again...I made a choice. One that I have the real knowledge of knowing my preference since I have experienced both.

You're still talking braille. LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ May 26, 2004, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

sufdb, the problem with your grasping the idea of someone preferring divorce over an affair is that you're looking at the affair situation through your own experiences.

From what I understand that A occured after a long period of emotional distance(no sex, sleeping in seperate rooms, living seperate lives) and so the A probably seems as if it should be less devestating because the emotional investment of the BS in that situation was very little.

However, not all A's happen in those circumstances. My ex's A took place without any major warning that things were going downhill. We had sex regularly, slept in the same bed, ate dinner together and attended events together. I had no idea when the A started initially and only began to see signs of it(missed time, him not wanting sex, ect.)when it was already a few months into it. It came completely from left field and there was no emotional detachment from my end.

I knew the OW and had met her prior to my knowing, I also was friends with his co-workers who later become instrumental in helping him cover up the A. It was only through blind chance that I found out and read all the e-mails between he and OW laughing about the two of them pretending in front of his "clueless wife" and then getting together the next day for sex during their lunch break.

I definately would have preferred him going through the divorce route first instead of humliating me behind my back to people I knew, spending our hard earned in our joint account money on gifts and dates for another woman behind my back(yes, I worked full time too, he told me the money was needed for work equipment)and completely trashing my ego by telling me the OW was better looking and a more interesting person.

Being served would have hurt but I would not have been given the same degree of baggage to be rid of afterward had he just ended our marriage instead of denegrating me before finally filing. It was like the final hard kick in the [censored] before throwing me out the door.

I'm a very positive person overall and do look at the glass as half-full. I do see it as a learning experience but quite honestly I wish I never had to learn that even the most trusted person in your life can turn on you and do horrible things to you. I know it now and so really don't 100% trust anyone anymore. Lesson learned.

I am happy to be out of the situation, grateful for the tremendous resiliency it gave me but really a plain old divorce would have been preferable if given a choice.

the equealing of an affair to nothing more than a life learning experience...with the tone that one should have an open mind to being betrayed just in case they might "learn" something from it...is beyond my (closed mindedness I'm sure to be labeled) mind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

)...the point of the poll is to ascertain whether folks "see" any difference between the two events, and whether those differences are significant in some way...

they are apple and oranges....

the amount of gross disrepect that is involved just on the nature of an affair is undeniably a factor that seperates the two on the spectrum...

though both are disrepectful (serving of papers with no disclosure)

the intimate involving of a third party into someones life on such a personal level.takes it to a new level and playing field.....makes the two thing morally and ethically uneven...and making them the BS the enemy... ..with all the other aspects of gross disrepect on a continuem...
that occur in an affair...


here's my poll...

would you like to wear a blindfold for a day...
or would you like to have your eyes gouged out with a hot poker...

the upside...is you get the life experience of being blind...and may learn some valuable lessons on learning to trust other people....and relying on others...and how better to arrange your living room.....

so since the learning lessons in the end are equal...

which would you choose?...

ARK