you POSTED this when you asked for our responses:

"Please do not offer perfect world options"

Yet you obviously have a severe hang-up about BS's mentioning the emotional pain, risk of STD's, being lied to...

You pretend that for us to acknowledge the negatives of adultery is to be negative, that we are unfairly (from your foggy POV?) skewing the results of the poll.

IMO you just want somebody to assure you that adultery is somehow OK, that it's actually the kinder thing to do to the betrayed spouse (since they can maybe use it as a growth experience?)

I'm guessing you've been deprived of such a 'growth experience' yourself. Maybe the only way you can 'grow' enough to truly understand our POV is for somebody to betray your trust with adultery? Maybe we should all start praying that will happen to you so you can 'grow'?

You also seem to believe that we betrayed spouses would prefer to remain in the marriage no matter what? Nope. Most of us CLEARLY communicate in our posting that although we'd like to save our marriages, we only want to do so if the marriage is made safe and satisfying for both spouses. This is one of the (many) parts of the equation you seem intent on ignoring. You want us to pretend that if a spouse had come to us in honesty and asked for a divorce, that there'd be no chance whatsoever of reconciliation, that adultery supposedly offers the ONLY chance of the marriage continuing.

You sound annoyed that betrayed spouses don't appreciate having been put through the betrayal of adultery. You clearly don't understand, let alone respect, the betrayed spouses' POV. I found it difficult to believe your insistance that adultery somehow benefits it's victims is motivated by genuine concern for what WE want or feel!

And NO - your posing as logical superiority isn't believeable either - too many variables conveniently ignored with your (foggy) thinking. Too much attempting to justify with focusing on the pros of adultery while refusing to consider the cons of adultery - nothing 'realistic' about that - just that same old self-serving fog-babble we've heard before from adulterers.

Would YOU prefer to have somebody else make your decisions for you, based on whatever criteria or agenda is important to THEM (and the OP)? Would you think it's acceptable for somebody to put you at risk for an STD, to lie to you? Would you think they did it because they wanted to give you a growing experience? Would you be OK with them assuming that you'd rather be lied to than to (maybe) lose them? Are YOU that insecure that you'd rather be cheated on than divorced? Or is that how you assured yourself it was OK to cheat on your spouse?

Obviously the majority of betrayed spouses don't share your POV. Surprising as it may seem to you, NO, most people would NOT prefer to be patronizingly lied to and cheated on. The mature, logical thing for you to do now is to stop whining and accept the poll results. Or you could go post your poll on the TOW board where no doubt you will find posters who 'think' (rationalize) more like you do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> given an imminent marital ending.....would you prefer (think your chances better) to be dealing with a walk away spouse, or a ws. If so the later, than complaining about how awful the ws is, and why didn't they just "leave" if they were unhappy is hypocritical....and self-servingly manipulative to say to your ws.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb,

Your little poll does not seem to be the issue here. The issue is apparently the continued lashing that you are receiving from your XW. This is something that you have no control over and I'm sure it can be very irritating to say the least. I am curious as to why it bothers you since you are now divorced.

I must admit that I am often entertained by your (IMO) warped sense of logic. For you to infer that the BS is self-serving, manipulative and hypocritical for daring to assassinate the character of a WS is hypocritical in and of itself.

I think I could safely assume that you (as a WS) were manipulative and self-serving in your wayward actions. You certainly weren't acting in the best interest of the M.

Using your own sense of logic, I really don't think you should "take offense" at the continued lashing of your character by your XW. She is simply being "radically honest". Her comments cannnot hurt or offend you unless you "choose" to "take offense".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by meremortal:
<strong> you POSTED this when you asked for our responses:

"Please do not offer perfect world options"

Yet you obviously have a severe hang-up about BS's mentioning the emotional pain, risk of STD's, being lied to...

You pretend that for us to acknowledge the negatives of adultery is to be negative, that we are unfairly (from your foggy POV?) skewing the results of the poll.

IMO you just want somebody to assure you that adultery is somehow OK, that it's actually the kinder thing to do to the betrayed spouse (since they can maybe use it as a growth experience?)

I'm guessing you've been deprived of such a 'growth experience' yourself. Maybe the only way you can 'grow' enough to truly understand our POV is for somebody to betray your trust with adultery? Maybe we should all start praying that will happen to you so you can 'grow'?

You also seem to believe that we betrayed spouses would prefer to remain in the marriage no matter what? Nope. Most of us CLEARLY communicate in our posting that although we'd like to save our marriages, we only want to do so if the marriage is made safe and satisfying for both spouses. This is one of the (many) parts of the equation you seem intent on ignoring. You want us to pretend that if a spouse had come to us in honesty and asked for a divorce, that there'd be no chance whatsoever of reconciliation, that adultery supposedly offers the ONLY chance of the marriage continuing.

You sound annoyed that betrayed spouses don't appreciate having been put through the betrayal of adultery. You clearly don't understand, let alone respect, the betrayed spouses' POV. I found it difficult to believe your insistance that adultery somehow benefits it's victims is motivated by genuine concern for what WE want or feel!

And NO - your posing as logical superiority isn't believeable either - too many variables conveniently ignored with your (foggy) thinking. Too much attempting to justify with focusing on the pros of adultery while refusing to consider the cons of adultery - nothing 'realistic' about that - just that same old self-serving fog-babble we've heard before from adulterers.

Would YOU prefer to have somebody else make your decisions for you, based on whatever criteria or agenda is important to THEM (and the OP)? Would you think it's acceptable for somebody to put you at risk for an STD, to lie to you? Would you think they did it because they wanted to give you a growing experience? Would you be OK with them assuming that you'd rather be lied to than to (maybe) lose them? Are YOU that insecure that you'd rather be cheated on than divorced? Or is that how you assured yourself it was OK to cheat on your spouse?

Obviously the majority of betrayed spouses don't share your POV. Surprising as it may seem to you, NO, most people would NOT prefer to be patronizingly lied to and cheated on. The mature, logical thing for you to do now is to stop whining and accept the poll results. Or you could go post your poll on the TOW board where no doubt you will find posters who 'think' (rationalize) more like you do. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">mm,

your response has nothing to do with the poll, but appears to be a vent of some kind, or displaced anger....it is just a poll addressing what it said...that is the whole point of polls, nothing more or less than the reasons stated....all this analysis about me is rather pointless, and kinda dumnb actually....it is pretty much a given no one here (or on any annonymous board) really has any concern what some disgruntled (and rude) individual thinks of them...that is true for me as well....but if it makes you feel better to be insulting, be my guest....as for the point you think the poll is poorly constructed, I get it, but you really didn't need all that to say so. You might want to consider the roll your obvious biases, and disrespectful manner play in your marital difficulties....perhaps the poll was useful to you in that way.

<small>[ May 27, 2004, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

"Today's number is 234826734. That's 2908372 more than the number for this day last year, and 3729 less than the average number for this season."

-ol' 2long

ba it is just a poll...but all this analysis of things other than the poll (or it's stated content) is fascinateing, why do you think this is happening?

ba...Your little poll does not seem to be the issue here. The issue is apparently the continued lashing that you are receiving from your XW. This is something that you have no control over and I'm sure it can be very irritating to say the least. I am curious as to why it bothers you since you are now divorced.

sufdb...your premise is incorrect. I have no such issue, nor did anything of that sort motivate the poll. The motivation was a curiosity over the phenomena of people regularly lamenting why didn't you divorce me first....It seems strange to me, that people who often claim the marriage is all important to them would choose divorce over a better (albeit more painful) chance at personal growth...that premise has evoked some discussion over whether one experience or the other inherently suggests more growth...but the real interesting outcome is that even if it does, people prefer the less painful life experience.....the poll was very successful IMO because it revealed this, something I did not expect... It is behavior that interests be ba...I have few of the issues folks like to assign me...mostly what is said about me, a person no one even knows, reveals more about them than it does about me....and is usually wildly inaccurate to boot. Thx for your comments.

ba...I must admit that I am often entertained by your (IMO) warped sense of logic. For you to infer that the BS is self-serving, manipulative and hypocritical for daring to assassinate the character of a WS is hypocritical in and of itself.

sufdb...Is is it possible to have warped logic? Isn't that an oxymoron? Heck, anyone who posts a position/opinion is gonna live or die by how well they make their case, but I have noticed those who are unable to refute others points tend to attack them as a sort of secondary method to refute them....kill the messenger thingy. But glad you find some value, even entertained means you are at least thinking....that is more than some close minds are willing to do.

ba...I think I could safely assume that you (as a WS) were manipulative and self-serving in your wayward actions. You certainly weren't acting in the best interest of the M.

sufdb....I think that describes the nature of ws'dom by definition...and yep, guilty as charged...for that period of time. I don't think my poll is suggesting choosing an affair is acting in the best interest of the marriage, that would be nonesense...the poll is about the fact this is life, and people who have life visited on them can either grow for the better or miss the opportunity (which kinda makes the life event worse)...both divorce and affairs are heavy duty events, and I linked them because they are closely related.

ba...Using your own sense of logic, I really don't think you should "take offense" at the continued lashing of your character by your XW. She is simply being "radically honest". Her comments cannnot hurt or offend you unless you "choose" to "take offense".

sufdb...I rarely take offense about much of anything, as you pointed out that is a choice... But your implication libel/slande/gossipr is of no concern in our society is way off the mark, such are serious concern, for many reasons, but that isn't the purpose of this thread, you could start another if that subject interests you, could be a good one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It seems strange to me, that people who often claim the marriage is all important to them would choose divorce over a better (albeit more painful) chance at personal growth </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please demonstrate/explain (instead of just stating) to me how an affair is a "better" chance for personal growth. Also, could you please explain why divorce is a "worse" chance for personal growth.

I see both situations as having equal opportunities for growth depending on how healthy the individual is. Marriage is certainly not the only (or best) opportunity for personal growth necessarily. What if I divorced for instance and joined the Peace Corps? Seems like that might be a huge opportunity for personal growth...that being married would never afford. Likewise, an affair can offer opportunities for growth...but they really do seem far more limited to me. Do you not agree?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>

sufdb....I think that describes the nature of ws'dom by definition...and yep, guilty as charged...for that period of time. I don't think my poll is suggesting choosing an affair is acting in the best interest of the marriage, that would be nonesense...the poll is about the fact this is life, and people who have life visited on them can either grow for the better or miss the opportunity (which kinda makes the life event worse)...both divorce and affairs are heavy duty events, and I linked them because they are closely related.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, you asked if you had a choice would you rather divorce or go through the affair experience, not if you've gone through the affair experience did you come out of it a better person. Two very different things there.

I went through the affair and divorce experience, did I come out a wiser person for it? Yes. Did I learn anything of value from it? Yes.

If an omnipotent being had shown me both options beforehand with all of their attendent consequences, good and bad, and gave me the choice of going through a betrayl or going through a vanilla divorce and asked which would I have chosen? The divorce.

Why?

The affair and his behavior during it drove me to a level of emotional upheaval which caused me to make bad decisions and put my own life on hold for a long period.

The affair put us both but especially me in deep financial debt that I carried out with me after the divorce. This made setting up my new life doubly difficult.

The affair and his behavior during it had the effect of coloring my view of the entire 10 year relationship. I can't look back on much without being reminded of the affair's ugliness. I wish it weren't so but it is. The last impression has stuck unfortunately.

The affair involved a lot of drama having to do with the OW's antics. I didn't invite her into my life but she was let in and ran roughshod over things that had nothing to do with her. A virtual stranger to me was now whispering in my H's ear giving him pointers on how to screw me over. A third person with her own vested interest and a mean spirit can do a lot of damage.

That's just some of it. I don't want to divulge it all because I'm not interested in re-hashing stuff that's over. I don't sit around bemoaning my lot in life or blaming my ex for all of my problems or even for everything that happened during the A and divorce. I'm not bitter and angry about it. I've made peace with what happened and hope he's gotten his life back on track and is doing okay.


So yes, I have tekn some positives from it and did the best I could with the hand that I was dealt but by no means would I actively choose to go down that road. The cost was not worth any benefit received. I think had we seperated first and starting talking divorce before he decided to pursue and affair I would have handled things much better(less emotionally), he would have been inclined to be more fair and less cut-throat without his little chippie encouraging him to get nasty with me and we probably would have remained friendly after the fact.

But instead I got waffling, cake eating, fence sitting, lying, hiding of assets and clandestine cleaning out of accounts, angry sex, leaving and then coming back time and time again, exposure to possible disease, private issues divulged to a third party who used them to prod me(OW actually wrote me once about my relationship with ex and my rape issues and so on. Real nice), and a betrayl of my trust. The lying did hurt worst of all and had left me wondering what else he lied about over the course of our marriage.

So, I'm not at all sure why you don't understand that a request for divorce handled in a mature fashion would not have been much more preferable to an affair and all the drama that came along with it.

<small>[ May 27, 2004, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Not-so-Silent-Observer ]</small>

Originally posted by star*fish:
Please demonstrate/explain (instead of just stating) to me how an affair is a "better" chance for personal growth. Also, could you please explain why divorce is a "worse" chance for personal growth.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I was going to ask this EXACT question!!!

????? separated at birth perhaps?????????

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> So far, the results are:

80% (n=44) would prefer divorce papers over an affair

20% (n=11) would prefer an affair first before any divorce papers

~~~~

The votes speak! What does this vote outcome mean to you?

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I commented a bit on ba response, but I am surprised. I had anticipated a larger number of people would prefer the growth experience, and thusly greater likelihood of a good outcome (including healthy recover...as opposed to phoney/false recovery)...there is something about going through the fire that is usually good for humans. Since most of the discussion favoring divorce seemed to be about pain avoidance, that suggests the population here is assesing this emotionally...pain avoidance is an instinctual (ie emotional) solution to life. It is also interesting (to me) the power people give to emotional pain, as if it were a physical injury.. I would prefer an emotional injury any day to a debilitateing physical injury, emotional recovery is simply a matter of decision is fully recoverable...if one wants to recover...IMO an essential part of that recovery is realizing what an opportunity relationship failures, or other "tradjedies" such as death of a loved one is. It also suggests to me people are far less rational about relationship matters than is healthy for them, and vest way too much of their personal well-being externally (the whole notion of you are my life), this is not only unhealthy for the individual, but for the person visited upon...only God warrants this kind of focus. It makes me wonder how many marriages fail precisely cause they have too high an emotional content...but I digress.

I also consider the premise may be wrong, that an affair related crisis has more scope/content for growth...but no one has refuted that, and it makes sense that something more emotionally painful would imply more "stuff" to deal with and grow from. In my case being a ws was so diametrically opposed to who I am and what I believe and how I live my life as too absolutely demand I drop everything and figure out what in the heck happened to me...heck, I was even a monogamous dater for crying out loud....and loyal to a fault. The experience and aftermath have been searing, but I can see where simply divorcing would have led to a completely different (and less "growth") outcome. My ingrained weak areas are of the kind that appear as good traits, rescuer...problem solver, empath...but have a deadly achilles heel. I doubt I ever would have realized that any other way. Likewise I was ignorant (naive) re the power of human attraction, I was in the camp (of many here) my eithics affair proofed me, that I was married, and married people don't do such things....I was so stupid, and didn't even know that attitude is not only an empty protection, but lulls you into a false sense of security making you even more vulnerable. That you could learn from others, but like most, I had no training in marital dynamics (especially the danger of emotional disconnection from your spouse), was just winging it...still I was trustworthy and faithful for thirty years...that counts for something.

I know now I placed myself in harms way when I gave up, and finally was contemplateing a future seperated (married, but not living together, how foolish in hindsite I was)from my wife after the kids were raised....a topic she had put on the table many times, and I had resisted (for religious reasons).

No doubt a bs will say, yeah wonderful, you grow and kill the bs...but remember this is not a choice one can (or should) make as a solution....I was only addressing the if it occurs is it of greater value than a divorce. But when I took the poll I answered divorce. I did so cause in my particular case the experience of being a bs would have been very different than as a ws (and that is true for because they are different experiences, I should have asked the question from both viewpoints). I am not particularly actualized in others, and if someone wants to leave me, I will not have a strong reaction (it is impossible for an empath to react that way, they prefer the person to go), so there is little for me to "learn", and the fact the relationship failed is the same for each event, and leads to the same contemplation.growth without all the other stuff.

I don't like rejection any more than anyone else, but rejection of me for someone else is no different than rejection for any other reason...but for those who rejection for someone else is a huge deal, have much they need to learn, and correct in themself...hence one of the values of experienceing an affair over plain divorce.

Anyways, there is a few thoughts, of side interest is the obsession over analyzing me, or displacing anger to me....I still haven't really figured out why some people just cannot be rational, but perhaps that also explains in part the poll results.

what do you think pep?

I had anticipated a larger number of people would prefer the growth experience,

What the hell is "the growth experience"? Please 'splain.

and thusly greater likelihood of a good outcome (including healthy recover

I am soooo lost ...

What "good outcome'?

What is a healthy recovery? You mean marital recovery or personal recovery?

...as opposed to phoney/false recovery)

This is the most confusing thing you've ever written... please do this part again... and spell it out so I know what you're talkin' 'bout.

...there is something about going through the fire that is usually good for humans.

Unless one gets so scared they cannot function. Ever work as an RN on a burn unit?

Interesting analogy you made.

Since most of the discussion favoring divorce seemed to be about pain avoidance,

Wrong...

Some is about the pain...
Some is about the loss of self...

some is about being humiliated and degraded... a completely different emotional weave than simply pain avoidance...

more later...

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> Originally posted by star*fish:
Please demonstrate/explain (instead of just stating) to me how an affair is a "better" chance for personal growth. Also, could you please explain why divorce is a "worse" chance for personal growth.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I was going to ask this EXACT question!!!

????? separated at birth perhaps?????????

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have here and there, but to state it more precisely (sorta of mathematically)....that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger...so that which almost but just short of killing you will make you strongest....ie all agree an affair is more painful than straight up divorce...ergo, more growth opportunity.

I dunno of course, one would have to effect mucho studies, set up protocols, argue over data blah blah blah...but you do hear people often note the affair resulted in a huge wakeup call that led to a good result....divorce papers just don't seem to have that zing (or result in that observation, more likely leads to fine, then leave if you don't like it here), obviously both can result in recovery or divorce.....but there is something about rejection for another person that really grips people and leads to some serious soul searching like nothing else can, as well as some real interesting reactions.....do you (and pep) agree with that analysis?

Suf, you are assuming that every BS behaves like your BS and does the whole "you are my life!" routine and claiming that the A/WS is "killing" them. That's not always the case.

In my case I didn't rush to end the M as soon as I found out about the A due to my own personal feelings about wanting to give it every last chance, because I did love him in spite of it and the fact that ex didn't want to end it. His own idea was to "leave" for a few months, play around with the OW and then come back. I wasn't having it, I didn't agree to an open marriage. I needed a decision one way or the other and he kept changing his mind and swinging between missing me and then acting like a complete [censored] when OW was influencing him. He was addicted to the very beautiful and extremely young girl who he was playing with, it's amazing what sex and a hot looking chick on your arm can do to some men. I'm glad we're divorced now and that there were no kids involved in that mess.

You have to keep in mind that all A's are not created equal and neither are all BS/WS.

....ie all agree an affair is more painful than straight up divorce...ergo, more growth opportunity.

I don't know if an affair is more painful than a straight up divorce.

I do believe an affair is drenched with personal humiliation and a divorce is not.

..but there is something about rejection for another person that really grips people and leads to some serious soul searching like nothing else can,

Are you saying that divorce is not a rejection?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">suf wrote:
the poll is about the fact this is life, and people who have life visited on them can either grow for the better or miss the opportunity (which kinda makes the life event worse)...both divorce and affairs are heavy duty events, and I linked them because they are closely related</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Suf,

Your poll simply asked which would we choose, a Divorce or an Affair.

I experienced both (Divorce and an affair) and I answered your poll honestly, although not as scrubed and sterile as you would have preferred, and choose Divorce.

Your comment above regarding missed opportunties in either of these life experineces does not mean that anyone that answered the poll did/would not take advantage of either circumstance to grow and learn.

I just have to say that great degree of your responses within this entire thread reads a WS making attempts at convincing themselves they did their BS a favor by creating an opportunity to grow/learn by having an affair.

Just a keen observation.

Jo

<small>[ May 27, 2004, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but there is something about rejection for another person that really grips people and leads to some serious soul searching like nothing else can, as well as some real interesting reactions.....do you (and pep) agree with that analysis? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">okay....here is the part of this statement I CAN agree with. Yes, there is a certain element of rejection (of any kind) but especially rejection over another person that can lead to real soul searching. But the opportunity for soul searching can be prompted by so MANY MANY things that are capable of producing results that to see an affair as a desirable because of that seems really short sighted. The divorce, would free me completely to pursue those sorts of opportunities....like education, travel, spirtual endeavors, work just to name a few....that affair recovery may not since I would still be responsible for meeting the needs of someone else. Divorce allows me to meet my own needs without that responsibility. I spend an incredible amount of my time....assessing and providing for my husband....what if I didn't have to? What could I potentially do with all that time? I think I could use it for personal growth and would.

To extrapolate this:

that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger...

To mean this:

so that which almost but just short of killing you will make you strongest....ie all agree an affair is more painful than straight up divorce...ergo, more growth opportunity.

completely ignores the fact that greater risk doesn't always equate to greater gain....sometimes, greater risk simply increases the likelihood that a higher percentage of folks will be "killed".

<small>[ May 27, 2004, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

????? separated at birth perhaps?????????


heheheheh....that must be it!!!

pep..What is a healthy recovery? You mean marital recovery or personal recovery?

sufdb...either or both, but the emphasis is on pesonal.


Since most of the discussion favoring divorce seemed to be about pain avoidance,

Wrong...

Some is about the pain...
Some is about the loss of self...

some is about being humiliated and degraded... a completely different emotional weave than simply pain avoidance...

more later...

Pep

sufdb....I see mostly pain...humiliation and degradation are self-inflicted injuries (in that you choose how to respond to such situations), and suggests a large need for more self-actualization, which of course is one of the growth opportunities. Jesus was degraded/humiliated but I have no sense that He felt that way, or saw it as defining Him. You cannot define anyone, we define ourselves, if we let others define us, we need to grow.

I anticipated someone using the fire symbology as an injury, so almost didn't use it, just my luck you worked in a burn unit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> But you got the point, so why the gratuitious messing with me? Cleansing fire, purifying fire, forgeing fire....NOT destructive fire...

I just posted some more stuff that may address your other issues...we'll see.

pep...Are you saying that divorce is not a rejection?

sufdb...no, I think I made it clear rejection for another person (if we define affairs as about that, even if doesn't lead to it) seems to be a rejection of more signiificance (the poll seems to validate that as well) than simply being rejected outright (no op), and people react very differently.....personally I see no difference, but apparently many others see a huge difference....befuddles me, but there it is...and a subject for another day.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb wrote:
....I see mostly pain...humiliation and degradation are self-inflicted injuries (in that you choose how to respond to such situations), and suggests a large need for more self-actualization, which of course is one of the growth opportunities. Jesus was degraded/humiliated but I have no sense that He felt that way, or saw it as defining Him. You cannot define anyone, we define ourselves, if we let others define us, we need to grow.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what I'm reading from you is that learning and growing is to become robots and not FEEL? Not feel pain, not feel anything.

So, then a question regarding our power over ourselves to NOT feel any emotions. If one was "sad and lonely" in a marriage, wouldn't you then say that it was their choice to feel sad and lonely?

Jo