racer, have you posted your story here? I couldn't find it. You know, if you start your own thread and tell your story in Gen Questions II you could probably get alot of feedback. It sounds like your situation deserves its own thread where you could get some undivided attention.

As far as him ending his life, it is fairly widely known in the community of alcoholics that it is RARE for us to ever kill ourselves. This is not something that narcissists normally do; we are "too special."

We will certainly use the threat to manipulate others, though. And it looks like it worked in this case.

I spoke briefly with my pastor after church today and told him about asking WH not to come home. I was honest with him--told him I wasn't sure I wanted WH back--that it's peaceful.

I'm not sure he's in agreement that I should ever consider D, but he did say I was doing the right thing keeping WH out at this point and no matter how hard it may be, that it's what I need to do, and that it will get easier. (I didn't really have a chance to tell him it's already fairly easy.)

----------------------------------------------

Now we can talk about guilty feelings. Some of you may remember my mentioning a person in my church who is recently widowed. NO, I've done NOTHING that would be considered wrong or risky. I rarely even talk to him, and our average church attendance is only about 75 (and about half are children), so I almost have to avoid him. I don't want anyone in the church, him included, thinking that I (a married woman) am pursuing him.

However, I have entertained thoughts in my brain about "What if WH and I don't get back together. Would he ask me out?" I know chances are he'll find someone else long before that's even a possibility, so it's rather irrelevant.

So today I come out and stop to talk to Raj, the little Indian guy who I've known forever. I knew he saw WH earlier in the week, and WH told him about his truck accident. And Raj is the one having the hardest time with WH and I splitting, because he doesn't know what WH is like outside church.

So Raj is talking to said widower, and he stops me and tells me to hang a minute because he wants to talk to me. So I stood there with the two of them while they finished their conversation.

The conversation happens to be about motorcycles. Apparently said widower recently got a motorcycle (a Suzuki) that could pass as a Harley, and he rode past Raj's house yesterday. So, before I even thought of what I was saying, I pipe up and say "Yeah, I really miss riding now that I don't have the opportunity to ride the Harley anymore. I am actually considering taking beginning motorcycle lessons later this summer at our community college so that if I ever have the money someday, I can buy myself a bike. Do you think I could drive one?"

Now I'm a speak-before-I-think person and it was an innocent statement, because I was do like riding and because I really am thinking about taking lessons (a woman I work with has taken them and said they're really good and that I could definitely learn to drive one). But now I feel like I came across looking like I was hinting at a ride or something from this guy. URGH!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

So we talked a bit about how my first ride was at 95mph when I was 16 and scared me to death and it's taken a while for me to enjoy riding because of it, and because WH drives rather fast. He said he uses the grandfather approach, as in he drives in a way that will hopefully allow him to reach grandfather age.

I was already thinking about my rides I've taken and off in la-la land talking about how I like to ride up around the lake and stuff before it hit me that I probably shouldn't even be talking to this guy so that no one gets ideas about me.

So I quickly turned to Raj and said, "You needed to talk to me before I leave?" and walked away from they guy.

--------------------------------------------

So here's the deal. Am I just doing better because it's calmer in my house and I like it? I'm afraid that because I know someone who is an example of what might be out there if I break up with WH, I am allowing that to fog my brain and pull me away from WH.

Maybe if I concentrated more on being alone for the rest of my life vs. being with WH, I'd be more committed to trying to hang tough and wait for him.

LL

<small>[ May 30, 2004, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

LL, I kow exactly how you feel. I had a high school classmate who D last year. When last time we talked, I briefly told him about my situation, then he offered to talk to me and helped me. I had all the fantasy in my mind.

Then he called me once, WH was home and picked up the phone, he knew this guy. I told him I am working on our M, he never called again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong> So here's the deal. Am I just doing better because it's calmer in my house and I like it? I'm afraid that because I know someone who is an example of what might be out there if I break up with WH, I am allowing that to fog my brain and pull me away from WH.

Maybe if I concentrated more on being alone for the rest of my life vs. being with WH, I'd be more committed to trying to hang tough and wait for him.

LL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are not going INTO a fog, but coming OUT OF a fog. Sanity is seeping into your life.

See, in an alcoholic family, the whole world revolves around the alcoholic. It is part of the sickness and dysfunction of an alcoholic home. You are becoming mentally healthy and pulling away from a life that revolves around the alcoholic and all his little schemes and crises.

You just aren't used to living a life that doesn't revolve around him and you aren't sure how to deal with it yet. Your life is becoming normal: calm and predictable and peaceful. If you keep this up, you might even become accustomed to being treated with respect!

The light of sanity is breaking through the fog.

<small>[ May 30, 2004, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Today's text from WH (the first since Friday). I haven't responded to it yet.

"Happy Memorial Day! Tell kids I love them. Thanx for the good times. Tell your mother Happy Bday. Hope U find what U R searching for. GOODBYE."

I admit...it did sting.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

LL

<small>[ May 31, 2004, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am actually considering taking beginning motorcycle lessons later this summer at our community college so that if I ever have the money someday, I can buy myself a bike. Do you think I could drive one?"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LL you could and you should...this is one sport that I find is stress free and exilerating..helps get your mind off things...I ride a HD Sportster and usually ride with a group of my girlfriends Friday afternoons...BUT if you decide to ride take the MC Saftey Course first... teaches you all the tricks of the trade on how to ride defensively...this is something you should do for you ..I highly recommend it...and as for MC's ..start with a second hand one if money is tight...you can then learn to ride on it and if you happen to drop it ..no big deal...no shiny chrome to worry about scratching <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

NO,

I would definitely take the MC course before trying to get my MC license. In fact, I've heard if you take the course here in our state, that often the Department of Transportation who issues the license doesn't make you take the driving portion of the test because you successfully completed the safety/riding course.

My fear--I'm not real coordinated. I understand manual transmissions and can drive a car with a stick, but am a little concerned about the MC with the clutch at your hand and the shifter at your foot (that's how the Sportster is set up, too, I assume). I could see myself screw that up.

I don't see myself riding all the time like WH does, but more just on sunny weekend afternoons when I want to relax. I think it would be great. And if I could ever learn and then afford a bike, I wouldn't have to rely on anyone else to drive me around.

Thanks for the encouragement. We'll see if I get the guts to take the course later this summer.

LL

As for how I replied to my WH's aforementioned text message of today...

I sent one back that said, "Nice day today, but windy, huh? I'm on my way to Mom's."

He sent back, "Thanx" (I assume it was a snide remark because I didn't ask if he wanted to go, but could be wrong).

I texted back a simple, "Huh?"

How'd I do for semi-babble?

LL

I was correct--WH was upset because I didn't check to see if he wanted to ride along before going to visit my parents and our friends yesterday.

I don't feel guilty for not taking him. I do feel a little guilty for not putting more effort into reviving our relationship. The couple I visited yesterday (the H was best man at our wedding) aren't sure what to think, but the one thing the guy said to me:

"LL, WH is never going to amount to anything unless he gets back with you and the kids. I hope you two can work it out."

That DID make me feel guilty. I'm back to thinking, "What if I'm the means by which WH is supposed to find, or remain close to, God? What if I leave him and he spirals down into a mess and ends up in Hell?"

I don't want that to happen. It's more important to me that WH is saved than my being happy.

Granted, I'm finding my independence, and I feel more at peace. But I'm also thinking more selfishly and putting me before others, and I'm not sure that jives with God's will for M.

LL

<small>[ June 01, 2004, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What if I leave him and he spirals down into a mess and ends up in Hell?"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LL, you are not responsible for his mess. He has to take care of his own.

I know in my mind you are right, LNH.

I allow myself to feel responsible because I've been probably more of a mother than a wife to him for our 19 years of marriage. I do love him in a caring, family way. No matter what happens between us, I don't wish anything bad on him and only wish for him to be successful in life.

(My definition of success is not to be rich and/or famous, but to be at peace with God because you have been saved by Jesus. I don't subscribe to the world's version of success.)

I keep beating myself over the head because I'm thinking maybe God put me in his life to bring him closer to God, and if I walk away or am not there, I may be going against God's will.

I'm struggling a bit with the whole "God's will" issue this last weekend and today.

LL

LL, you are such a faithful perosn. GOD will be pleased. But sometimes it maybe just GOD's job to do whatever needs to be done, we human will have to follow him. Please feel that peace. I have been looking for the peace, but now I lost it again. I need to work very hard to get it again.

I guess WH tried to call me to ask if I'd like to go out for a sandwich at lunch. I was away from my desk and didn't get the original message until after he'd left. He called me when he got back to tell me about it.

I asked what he did over the weekend. He just said he was laid up on Sunday with back pain from his accident. I know he must have been alone yesterday because he was texting me.

So...has he given up OW (or vice versa)? Should I ask? Or because he didn't have a vehicle and it was raining so he couldn't ride the Harley, is it just cooling right now?

And I really don't even want to know if he's quit seeing her, but is it my responsibility as the committed W to now ask, and if I find out it's ended, to ask him to do N/C with her, and then to start working on our M?

Why couldn't this stuff have happened 2-3 months ago when I still wanted him back more than anything else in life?

LL

LL, remember we are working on GOD's schedule, not our own. But wait for some experts to help you out with details.

LL,
I am normally not real comfortable with discussing religeous philosophy with people that I don't know real well(and don't even know your denomination). I personnally think that an individual has to become at peace with themselves and with their God through whichever set of teachings comes closest to what they believe. I do not feel that it is my responsibility to tell someone else what/how to worship or what to believe. I feel that that is a very personal decision that everyone has to make by themselves and not just do what someone else insists is the only right way.(This is also my understanding of the concept of religious freedom).

...but I will share some of my beliefs in the hope that it provides you with a bit of peace and comfort...

In the Presbyterian church, we tend to believe in the concepts of forgiveness and God's grace. The basic concept is that God forgives whatever or whoever he chooses to. That is one of the ways that he gives us his grace. The teachings are that it is not necessarily due to a specific act or acts of a person during their life on earth that determines whether a person goes to heaven or hell. It is only by GOD'S GRACE that we go to heaven or hell. HE and He alone decides. The best that we can do is try to follow the teachings of Christ in order to be the best humans that we can possibly be to each other. I believe that that is the goal. Do the best job that we can following the teachings of Jesus. He knows that we will not always be good at following God's will or even remotely successful. Since we don't always know exactly what God expects of us, we naturally will not always follow his will. This is where the forgiveness of sins and GRACE of GOD part comes in.

So...basically, with my beliefs, I would urge you not to get too wrapped around the axle about whether or not something that YOU do will send your husband to hell....This is not your decision. It will depend on God's grace and has nothing to do with you.

I have trouble with the concept that doing what is healthy and happy for yourself and your children could be construed as going against God's will. It sounds more like someone's speculation at what God's will really is.

Wishing you peace.

Dave

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
I don't feel guilty for not taking him. I do feel a little guilty for not putting more effort into reviving our relationship. The couple I visited yesterday (the H was best man at our wedding) aren't sure what to think, but the one thing the guy said to me:

"LL, WH is never going to amount to anything unless he gets back with you and the kids. I hope you two can work it out."

That DID make me feel guilty. I'm back to thinking, "What if I'm the means by which WH is supposed to find, or remain close to, God? What if I leave him and he spirals down into a mess and ends up in Hell?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, it's not up to you if he winds up in Heaven or Hell. How's your anon recovery program working these days?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't want that to happen. It's more important to me that WH is saved than my being happy.

Granted, I'm finding my independence, and I feel more at peace. But I'm also thinking more selfishly and putting me before others, and I'm not sure that jives with God's will for M.
LL</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Warning! Warning! Warning!

CLASSIC co-dependent fog in these paragraphs. Giving up your happiness does not equal your husband's salvation!

Get thyself to a recovery meeting or call a sponsor ANY TIME you start feeling these "guilty" feelings of being responsible for your WH's life falling apart.

My 12 step sponsor once told me, "Adam fell. And Eve let him." She didn't try to rescue him, speak up for him when God asked why they were hiding behind the fig leaves... Adam answered directly to God for his actions and choices. And your husband needs to take responsibility for his happiness. As long as you do that for him, he doesn't have to. And that means God can't reach him. Get out of God's way, Dear Lady!

<small>[ June 01, 2004, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]</small>

CLASSIC co-dependent fog in these paragraphs. Giving up your happiness does not equal your husband's salvation!

I know staying with (or taking back) WH doesn't guarantee his salvation. Maybe it's codependency--maybe it's just the vows coming out. Maybe it's just because I truly do put others' feelings ahead of my own (WH's, kids, coworkers, etc). I don't see it as a wrong thing necessarily. God asks us to love others as ourselves.

So my concern is just that I may be disobeying God if I bail and if his plan is for me to be the one to guide WH toward (or back to) him. I am concerned that it is selfishness.

Not to mention, as hard as it is to deal with the pain of the last several months, I truly do NOT want anything eternally bad to happen to WH (even if I can't control it). I do still love him as a person, whether or not the romantic husband/wife love is gone or not. You could say I love him as a child in a way. While I don't agree with my children, or even want to be around them sometimes, I pray for their safety and for God to work in their hearts. WH falls into this same category.

Also, I do take very seriously scripture about divorce and remarriage. In fact, I take it further than most--I'm not sure remarriage is condoned at all, under any circumstance.

Anyway, even if it's allowed for me to divorce and remarry due to WH's infidelity (should it come to that), it would not be allowed for him to remarry. I feel like my selfishness again would be setting him up to fail.

And then throw in that I was a WW a number of years ago (NO "in his face" A like his to me, but still was WRONG!!) So I also question whether or not that negates the whole thing.

I was actually the FIRST WS in our marriage. So one could believe that if we D, HE is actually the one who should get to remarry and I should be the one who stays single, because I was the initial guilty party.

Can you tell that I've totally fallen off the sanity wagon today. I'm really not sure why. Nothing in particular has happened to trigger it, other than a visit to my parents' and to our friends' houses yesterday--and they went well.

I think my researching today on the internet about Christians and divorce coupled with my questions about how I'm dealing with WH's A lately and my attitude got me going. And then I found more and more websites about divorce and remarriage and how it's wrong and, well, I'm one of those worriers... I latch onto something and drive myself crazy. It was one of the many things my WH doesn't like about me.
-----------------------------------------

By the way, he sent a text asking if I was seeing anyone--just curious, he said.

I responded back that I absolutely wasn't. And asked if he was still.

His response, "rarely".

My response to his "rarely=still involved=not ready to give it up yet"

His response: "When it comes to change, sweep your own doorstep."

Maybe I'm dense. I have no idea what his cryptic message meant. Fog, most likely.

I'm just feeling a little nostalgic tonight. I'm missing the good times we did have. I'm considering my beliefs and deciding if God says I have to remain single (celibate) forever, if that's much more appealing at 38 than trying to work things out again.

Ugh!! I was doing SO good!

Everyone stumbles, right? I want to be strong and at peace again. I just don't want to hurt WH in the process if I can help it (not to be confused with letting him be responsible for his own issues like the wrecked truck and the pain that OW is causing for him).

LL

Burtonzoo,

Actually I attend a Southern Baptist church right now though was raised in a different denomination. Whether you believe God saves who he choses or that everyone has an opportunity to be saved if they call on the Lord, either way it leaves me out as the method by which my WH may or may not be saved. I know this in my mind. It's my heart that keeps saying, "But what if I stayed around him--would he, because he has a Christian influence, be more likely to come to God? If I end up splitting, will I always blame myself because of the "what if"?"

Kayla,

AA hasn't been coming very well for several weeks now. DS's graduation and my business trip in May along with some major deadlines due last Friday kept me hopping all week, so then my weekends were spent NOT relaxing and going to AA like I should have. I did good getting myself to church. Other than that, it all got forgotten. I've considered finding a non-Sunday meeting, but weeknights seem to be more disjointed than weekends. (See...I really do think I share some of DD's ADD issues. I am a really bad user of time.)

LL

Okay, LL took a bad emotional tumble tonight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Feeling blue. Questioning my future--what to do. Researching D on internet. Not sure still that I believe I'm allowed Biblically to remarry if I D. Depends on the proper definition of the verse in Matthew. Feeling very distant from God tonight.

Makng a long story as short as I can, one text led to another and I found myself calling WH to ask him what he really wanted in life.

Answer: To survive w/o going nuts and eating lead.

We were both crying on the phone. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> He said that if he sold camper (my suggestion) and moved in with OW, that'd be it. (Guess he means it'd be a permanent arrangement.)

More crying. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I ended up at the shop hugging him and crying more. Ugh! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I may not be responsible for his actions, but I hurt so much for how he's killing himself. It's like ripping a piece of me to shreds.

Mel, if you read this: I did tell him I would NOT take him back if he's drinking, no matter what. Told him the chaos left with him and that I don't want it back--that I don't want our old M back, no matter how much I may love him.

He says it's impossible for him to find happiness or pull himself out of the mess he is in. Said he asked God for help. I asked what happened next. His reply, "I totalled my truck." I believe that was his wake-up call and he didn't wake up.

More crying all the way home. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> More crying at home. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I think I'm dehydating...

LL