I don't know that he ever had another affair. I don't think he is having one now. What is really eating me up is that I can't trust him. I love him (we are not married but were to be married July 3rd this year) but I can't forget the fact that he tricked me into going out with him in the first place. I honestly thought that God had sent this man because of a letter (silly as it sounds) that I wrote to God and placed in a book
that he would send someone who would love me and my daughter. I was devastated when I found out he was married as was everyone else in my life. They were all so happy for me.

Anyway my problem is trust. He travels all the time and I find myself doubting everything he says. Maybe irrational but I can't find a way through it.

I am now considering counseling with him (he is coming home this weekend and will stay at our vacation property) I don't want to live with him any more but I might date him, sort of like starting over while I work on my trust issues.

It wasn't him who was causing all the problems after he got divorced and moved here. It's me I am mad at him all the time and I think it is really fear that he will hurt me the way he did his former wife.

Anyway thank you for asking.

WAT -
I did put my two cents worth on your exposure thread.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stunned-dad-fast recovering:
<strong> There is a huge difference between a serial cheater and a one time cheater who cheated because of marital problems

Please tell where in the heck anything and I mean ANYTHING was posted by Weaver saying this man had had mulitple affairs?

Well she didn't post that so those of you that rushed to judgement need to go back and reread.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">stunned dad is exactly right, I did misread and did very much think he had had multiple affairs when actually you are only aware of ONE, ie: the one with you! So I apologize for my mistake and certainly wouldn't consider a one-time cheater a "serial cheater." Mea culpa! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Stunned Dad

Question for you

Did you have a problem with trust after your wife's affair or were you able to get through that because you were married for a long time before her affair? You probably already knew she was basically trustworthy and had an affair because of problems in the marriage.

I think that might be the reason married people are able to overcome affairs...they have known their spouses before the deception and their relationship was based on honesty from the begining even if that was temporarily gone.

When you don't have that, how do you know what you are dealing with. How can you trust someone who was lying when you met them and to such an extent that it takes to keep a marriage hidden.

I'm just trying to figure this all out (the trust thing) so please bare with me.

All I know is that I went back with and got engaged to him after his divorce because I was desperately in love with him by then and I didn't know how big an issue trust would be for me.

So weaver, are you ending it or not? I'm confused.

This is your choice, and if you choose to try to live with it, you may have a chance, but I doubt it, and we probably won't be able to help you on that course.

WAT

MelodyLane - I knew at the time that you had misread but you could be right, who knows, not me that is for sure.

WAT - I did end it. He is making plans to have his things moved into storage this week. He called and left me a message that he would be at our property end of this week and would like to talk about possibly counseling together. He was very interested in MB and still is.

I admit I'm fluctuating, vascilating, confused and I don't know what the hell I'm doing, that is why I am here.

But if we end up together, why would you not be able to help then? I will never get back in a relationship with someone I don't trust, him or anyone else. I have already found out that that is no fun. But if I get counseling and he gets counseling and we do get back together and end up here together... why wouldn't this forum be helpful?

You are puzzleling too WAT.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong>But if I get counseling and he gets counseling and we do get back together and end up here together... why wouldn't this forum be helpful?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because he will still be untrustworthy. We can't fix that and neither can you. You may choose to believe he's "changed" but we won't necessarily believe that. And in the end, you will have been an accomplice in homewrecking.

So, why am I puzzling?

WAT

You are puzzling (and you are a very good speller by the way) because you said that I did not cause the affair, their were problems in their marriage alreay, in your very first reply to me. I had the affair with him before I even knew it was an affair, I thought he was simply my BF, I didn't know he was already someone else's husband. That home is done wrecked, he is divorced and wants to marry me now. He told me he will never go back to his former wife, they have no kids together and he wants someone who wants to be involved with his kids and grandkids (me). From what I have been told she is with someone else now and has moved. (I called his daughter today because I wanted to send her the letter but I can't get an address for her, she moved)

Now look what I am doing I am defending the whole sordid mess. You're challenging me aren't you?

I like you WAT, don't get me wrong. You are very smart. I read this forum for a few weeks before I logged in. And I am amazed at all the smart, savvy people who are here. You, Melody Lane, ARK
Stunned Dad, Orchid, everyone's post whom I have read really. And those who have responded to me.
It is really amazing.

I think Stunned Dad is right, that you can "check out but you can never leave"

Weaver

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong>You're challenging me aren't you?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes.

That said, the smartest, wisest people on this forum haven't yet posted to you.

I also said in my previous reply, "Keep in mind that your involvement with him did not cause the failure of their marriage, but it prevented them from improving their marriage."

Now, I am smart enough to admit something.

I have a bias against seeing cheaters "win."

This would be the case if you stay with this liar. He will "win." But only temporarily, because he likely will lie to you and you will likely always wonder if he is or isn't being a liar, and you may yet dump him or experience being a BS.

That said, the same questions could be posed to couples that recover from infidelity - by definition including liars and cheaters. The difference, to me, is that these couples at least had a history, at one time, of being sincere. You didn't have that from the git go. You have no basis to believe it will ever exist. You may have faith it can exist, but you will always have this nagging doubt.

Hence the basis of your original post.

"Wait a minute!", you say, "don't even newlyweds have to rely on "faith" that it (fidelity) exists?"

Yep.

But you have one for one proof that it didn't. Presumably, newlyweds don't have this evidence.

You may be successful taking this chance. I won't pretend to know the odds.

Do you play the lottery?

WAT

<small>[ June 01, 2004, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

WAT, I think you are being a tad TOO cynical here.

I know what you're saying about us recoverees who have a history and I also can see what you're saying about Weaver's partner starting their whole R on a lie BUT...

I think he deserves the chance to prove he's trustworthy. Even those of us with a history together have had to start all over again. I don't know, Weaver or WAT, if you've read my recent posts about my job but I am having to prove myself to my H all over again and we've been married 30 YEARS.

I mean how do you prove you're trustworthy when you've shown what a lying, devious cheat you can be (and I'm talking about myself here). You have to earn it.

Weaver, I can understand why you don't want to let it all go just yet. You have a family now for your daughter and yourself.

And as for WAT being smart - hmmmm let me think about this. I remember a certain incident when he called two of our lady members old. And boy, did he pick on the wrong two. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> He he he.

No, one of them wasn't me but this IS the month that the 49 in my signature line turns into a 50. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Jenny

<small>[ June 01, 2004, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

Ah, Jen - thanks for showing up.

You're a good contrast for this discussion.

Your husband has an excellent basis for trusting you and your recovery. You were trustworthy, I presume, for many, many years prior to your mistake - AND! you've shown the integrity to form that basis again.

weaver has no such basis. She's taking a HUGELY bigger gamble. She's believing the spin her fiance has put on his prior relationships - a spin from a known liar.

Your husband, Jen, had a basis. weaver has a gamble with no track record.

Cynical? Perhaps - if your definition of cynical means, "a caustic way of telling the truth."

How's the lamb?

WAT

Weaver,

I think what Melody is trying to say, whether any of your BF's relationships were A's or not is that it is unlikely he has learned anything in his two previous marriages, or his relationship that created another child, or his A with you.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How can you tell it is a character flaw and not because of marriage problems. This is what I have been struggling with for over two years. But you said right off the bat without knowing us. Aren't all affairs deceptions by their very nature. How is this one different and a way of life for him. Is it intuition that tells you this, because maybe that is what won't let me trust him. I am sincerely interested in your thoughts on this.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, stop for a moment and consider this. The likelihood of the 1st marriage failing is about 35%, the second marriage failing is something like 60%, and the likelihood of the third marriage failing is about 75% or higher. Why is that?

It is because people don't learn a thing from the previous marriage so they make the same mistakes and compound them by selecting partners that they don't get along well with.

So considering that this would be your BF's third marriage, the odds are NOT in your favor. It seems to me you have a very good chance of a successful second marriage, because you are growing and learning. You cannot trust your BF because deep down you know the odds of him marrying two wacko women is small unless his taste in woman is really bad. Now where would that put you?

So, what I am trying to say is that Melody doesn't need to know you or your BF. She knows the odds, and the reasons marriages fail. You offer no evidence that he has changed his ways, even if he does read about and understand MB. Further, his needs for a woman, may not square with your needs in an man.

Here is a worse statistic, only about 3% of marriages from an affair make it.

I think you are very wise to be distrustful. I think you also need to realize that you have spent two years agonizing over this, and that alone tells you that you know in your gut, this is NOT the relationship for you. Listen to your gut, and realize what the odds are.

You have made the right decision in my humble opinion.

God Bless,

JL

Jenny -

The BIG 50...how will you do it??? With a huge hurah I hope... lots of big black balloons and nasty cards. When someone at my work turns 50 we have soooo much fun with it. One time we stuck
50 pink plastic flamingo's in someones yard and her husband about had a coronary because we messed up his newly planted lawn seed. I hope you do it up right!!!

Weaver

Ah Weaver,

Jenny is but a mere child. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Heck she just grew up this year. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> The 50 is a good year and should be throughly enjoyed.

JL

Yes I was completely trustworthy for 27 years.

But I have now shown that I can be devious liar. You have no idea how devious. It makes me sick just to think about it.

That's what I mean by having to start again. I have wiped out 27 years of trust. That is almost too much for H to handle but as you know with a LOT of hard work we are getting there.

The lamb will be ready when you get here in 7 years. I was worried when you asked JL - he'll be on his zimmer frame by then.

Weaver, do you want to trust him? Do you love him? He sounds like he wants to do the work. I'm a firm believer that life is too short to ever lose the chance of happiness and if it's with him and he can PROVE he's trustworthy I think you should try to work it through.

Jenny

Oh heck, you were all posting when I was, then the net disconnected itself and there's been a ton more replies since I wrote this. And, oh heck, JL's here and he'll read what I've written about the zimmer frame. Oh heck.

<small>[ June 01, 2004, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

JL

I know. I think that is why all of this is happening right before our wedding was to be because I know in my heart that something isn't right. I have known that all along. Which is why I think I am so adament about exposure."Nip it in the bud" before real feelings are allowed to grow and before it becomes a relationship that involves other people. We are so connected, that when so many people are pulled into a lie it becomes their affair also. I am speaking of the people in my life who love me and also those who had become friends with BF. (knowing him as my BF
and not someone elses cheating husband)

Weaver,

I think you have the right idea and have made a courageous decision. WAT is right there is a huge difference between KiwiJ and your BF. He has never been really honest with or at to put it more correctly, your relationship started as a lie. It was a lie that ended a marriage.

Jenny, is being harder on herself that I think she needs to be, she was honest and a good W for 27 years, that COUNTS for a lot. Yup, she was a devious liar, but then she reverted to her NORMAL behavior, and THAT I believe is why her H has been able to get through this. History counts, it counts for a lot. Yes, people can change, and do change. But, it is up to them to demonstrate it. It is a tough job trying to rebuild the trust as Jenny says.

I will use my position as someone who is a bit older, and tell you that there are many people out there for you to meet and learn about. You will NEVER fully understand your spouse, it simply is not possible, but you can rely on what they are doing and what they have done to tell you a bit so that you have some idea what they might do in a given situation. That is called trust, this ability to predict.

Can people fail? Yes, but they can also come to be successes again.

The issue here is that you are NOT MARRIAGE BUILDING, you are deciding on a marriage. That to my mind puts a completely different onus on the other person, and here history really does count. Why risk it? I don't think it is wise. If you were married to him, then I would be offering advice on how to work through it, and see if he has or will learn new behaviors, but you two are not married. Hence you get the advice I have given.

I don't know how old you are, but I suspect you have a lot of time to meet the right person. So take your time and do that.

God Bless,

JL

Jenny,

What the heck is a zimmer frame?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

And no what ever it is, I will NOT be old enough for it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

JL

Geez, JL it's an American word. It's a walker. You know, old men and ladies in rest homes use them.

What would you call one of those?

BTW Weaver, no big party but H and I think a weekend away together, perhaps with my sister and her partner, would be very nice.

Jenny

Yeah, I love him. But I'm not convinced that love is enough.

My daughter (who is nine) is so funny. She is crazy about him and Monday, she said to me "oh mom, can't you just forget this, he is sooo much fun" I said no, it's not that simple. And then she said "well, alright then...can I sign on to your email because I need to email Kid Rock, I want to tell him you can go out now"
I had put some Kid Rock songs on a workout CD I made for us, and I'm always saying when they play - oh I just love Kid Rock...

What would we do without our kids...now that is a depressing thought.

Weaver,

Fascinating story. We Bs's all like to demonize the ow, well, because it is easier than hating our beloved husband's, and because you don't want to think it was something wrong with YOU.

Well, when I read your thread I could see how one would be duped into the relationship, into being an OW. I wish, O MAN HOW I WISH, my WH's OW was like you!!!!! I called her one day, with one of the calmest and respectful demeanors I have EVER portrayed, even though I was DYING inside, and asked her why she could not just leave my husband alone, and leave us to the hard work of rebuilding our marriage, and saving our family (I have two young, beautiful children that are just SUFFERING right now...terribly, terribly hurt and confused by their Dad's choices). And she said to me "I would just have way to much to lose." Then I calmly tried to explain how much we had to lose, how I had invested all these years with my husband, how we had built a beautiful, a TRULY beautiful life together. How my children were hurting so, so badly. Then I tried to explain to her how in my faith, A was wrong. She then told me that those were antiquated, outdated ideals, and that one has to do what is necessary when they discover true love, no matter the circumstances. Ouch.

Anyway, I have to disagree about building a life with him, in my own opinion. Why?

Well, firstly, marriage is hard enough without this MAJOR card stacked against you. And my WH did cheat on me when we were just dating, and I tried to excuse that away as youth, and immaturity. Well, the current A may not have youth to blame, but we are still dealing with quite a bit of emotional immaturity on behalf of my WH. And if I could have just gone back and cut my losses while I could have....man o man o man, I would not have married him. I can honestly say I would have rather dealt with the pain and loss of leaving and losing him then, than the pain and loss of leaving and losing him now. And it is truly a fact in most situations that past behavior is indicative of future behavior. And I do not get the sense that you were controlling, manipulative, or punitive when he did share some sort of uncomfortable truth with you, so there was really NEVER any reason to lie. Or was there... let's remember that the very PREMISE of an A involves lies.

Secondly, is it possible that these lovely, in love, committed feelings he is having for you now is par for the course in any new love relationship, but that once that expires, he will no longer have a use for you (like he ran out of love for his past two wives).

Thirdly, it sounds like you are a spiritual person. If you are, than you KNOW that God will never have something be in His will for your life that is counter to His word. And you may have left the letter in your bible, and then this guy entered your life, but it was not of God. God did not "bless" you with a married man. You know this. God hates divorce. Not committing Adultery is one of the ten commandments for goodness sakes. This man was not a gift from God. Plus, God says not to be unevenly yoked. You are not married yet. You have to ask yourself, how many values does this man REALLY, TRULY share with you. He doesn't have much regard for the sanctity of marriage (this will be marriage NUMBER THREE for him, plus, he committed adultery with you). He does not value honesty (if you really want to do some investigation, you could probably call wife #1, and wife #2 and learn some really, really, really interesting perspectives). It just does not sound like a blessing from God. When you are plugged into Christ, you know a blessing or an answer to a prayer when you see one. And God has a perfect plan for you....the bible says it will be better and more amazing than we could ever dream. In all honesty, does this guy fit the bill. If Christ were to personally approve or condone your choice, WOULD HE?

My very humble opinion only...but I say, run for the hills lassie, run!!!