Sorry, double post

<small>[ June 03, 2004, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>

this has been so interesting to read.
I say again-if I would have been on
MB board before my "friendship"
developed-I would have saved myself
a lot of heartache. I allowed OM to
meet all my EN-and never gave my H
the chance to know anything. This is
all valuable information-Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by atruheart:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The Road Less Traveled" was indeed an excellent book to read and helped me A LOT to understand certain things about what happened to me, but if everyone disagree on what I'm trying to say here, it also means that the book hold no grounds and is just a lot of crap! That book was one of the BEST SELLERS in the world and was written by a well-known psychotherapist.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another best selling book is titled the Holy Bible~~~~~ and inside it lists the 10 commandments.

One of them is :
Thou shall not commit adultry.( and it doesn't say it's o.k if it's not intentional)Loving another besides your w or h is adultry in this book!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

It also says A H should love his W like Christ loves the church!
But it does not say to go out and make friendships with other M to fill your needs if your H doesn't.

Not to compare Suzet, but I believe this book has sold more than any other book in the world.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> and still even people who read it and "believe" it ....question what it says if they fail in some way.

Blessings,
Atruheart </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Atrueheart,

I believe in the Bible and 10 commandments just as strong as you. I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish with this post since adultery and frienships is two totally different things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Where in the Bible is written that it's a sin or adulterous to have appropriate friendships with opposite sex people??? Of course the Bible talks about "adultery of the heart" but are you saying adultery includes ALL frienships with the opposite sex if you are heterosexual??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Any frienship meet some ENs in a certain degree... Please help me out here. I must admit, I don't like the 'tone' of your previous post...have I noticed a sarcastic tone there? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I really don't know what you are trying to achieve with this attitude... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ June 03, 2004, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>

oooooh Suzet,

I was only useing your own example of a best selling book to defend MY point of view!

Why so angry about that? I did not say anything contrite to you personally.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish with this post since adultery and frienships is two totally different things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">O.K tell me if I TOTALLY misunderstand here....are you saying "friendship" and feelin "in-love" with someone of the opposite sex are same thing???

Emotional Affairs are affairs of the HEART, right?

YOU used a book to support your point of view Suzet and I used a book to support mine! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sorry that angered you!

Blessings,
Atruheart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but it is dangerous to make the general assumption that this is the case in ALL circumstances. I was using J.R. example to illustrate how it’s possible that people can fall in love and develope inappropriate feelings without necessarily engaging in inappropriate and wrong activities and behaviour... I use JR's example to illustrate how people can fall in love before the boundaries is crossed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why is it dangerous to assume this??? Is it NOT better to be SAFE than SORRY???

Inappropriate activities and behavior are NOT the only way to get yourself into trouble. Emotions. Reading this for what "you would like" feeling those warm fuzzies..... we must ALL LEARN where our OWN boundries are!!!!

O.K here goes a question for you!
Since I am a BS do you think it is O.K for my H to out and make a new female friend?

Blessings,
Atruheart

Atrueheart,

I wasn’t angry about you post… I was disappointed in the sarcastic tone of your post…

Yes, you misunderstood…I’m not saying “friendship” and “feeling in love” is the same thing…I don’t know where you get that idea from… And yes, EA’s IS emotional affairs of the heart… The Bible talking about adultery and affairs of the heart. The fact is, the line where normal friendship cross into an EA can be very blurry and it’s very easy for people to unwittingly cross that line from friendship into beginning of EA or inappropriate feelings if they are not careful and not aware of your own weaknesses and vulnerabilities… You're a BS and I'm a FWS and since you haven't experience what I've learned you won't understand... I don't understand why you're still trying to debate with me with you current attitude... What are you getting out of it???

<small>[ June 03, 2004, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>

ark^^,

Many thanks for your input. I'd already decided that where RJ (did y'all realize we've been calling her JR and her name is really RJ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) failed was in NOT being radically honest with her H. So your observation is directly in synch with my own.

EricM, you've stated what I'm thinking in a more concise manner.

atruheart, I think your "warm fuzzy" and the built-in antennae thing is exactly what Suzet and I are calling the "in-love" feelings. That initial "uh-oh".

Oh, BTW - my mention of admiration was not meant to be an example of conversation turned intimate. It was meant to be an example of an EN (other than conversation) that can be met innocently by any person.
"This report looks clean and professional"
"You're always so efficient - the staff really appreciate that"
"Great bean dip!"
"Love what you've done with the yard"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by atruheart:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but it is dangerous to make the general assumption that this is the case in ALL circumstances. I was using J.R. example to illustrate how it’s possible that people can fall in love and develope inappropriate feelings without necessarily engaging in inappropriate and wrong activities and behaviour... I use JR's example to illustrate how people can fall in love before the boundaries is crossed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why is it dangerous to assume this??? Is it NOT better to be SAFE than SORRY???

Inappropriate activities and behavior are NOT the only way to get yourself into trouble. Emotions. Reading this for what "you would like" feeling those warm fuzzies..... we must ALL LEARN where our OWN boundries are!!!!

O.K here goes a question for you!
Since I am a BS do you think it is O.K for my H to out and make a new female friend?

Blessings,
Atruheart </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Atrueheart...it is always dangerous and wrong to make general assumptions, especially if it allows you to develop a judgemental attitude...

My answer to your question... No, I don't think it will be OK for your H to go out an make a new female friend...except if it's a freind or couple of both you and your H where both you and your H can share time with the person (this is the boundary I currently exercise in my own M after what I've learned from my friendship with XOM).

I'm going home now and will be back tomorrow morning to post again.

Bye everyone. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

bye, Suzet! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're a BS and I'm a FWS and since you haven't experience what I've learned you won't understand... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I am SO greatful for that Suzet! That I have not experienced and learned what you have...I am also greatful my H hasn't either. We would not be able to recovery in that case.

The case you presented here was like an E/A. Two people opposite sex's involved in "friendship" one falls in love....why? as I said "she crossed her own boundries"....exposed herself to her own vulnerabilities and therefore "chose".

I really see no pt. in trying to explain anymore than this.....it's very simple! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Don't go away mad.

And how come nobody answered my question? LOL

Blessings,
Atruheart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

turtlehead

I wasn't really addressing the article more the concept of falling in love as being intentional or unintentional, choice or not a choice if that makes sense.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by EricM:
<strong>Sure it is possible for feelings of love to develop innocently. You spend time with a friend of your spouse and they are not doing anything to try and hit on you or come on to you, yet you develop feelings for them. Ok, no harm, no foul.

However, at some point, you will realize that your feelings go beyond friendship. At that point is where you can transition from it being innocent to allowing boundaries to be crossed, intending to accept flattery or needs being met.

You can choose to face it, to tell you spouse what is going on, to make sure you do not spend time with that person anymore. Or, you do nothing, and allow the feelings to grow. And at some point, it is inevitable that the OP realizes you have feelings for them, or you take the step to tell them of your feelings.

So, can feelings develop innocently, sure. But the minute you realize it, the responsibility for what happens after that is totally yours. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EricM, thanks for your post – I agree with your 100%. Your post also supports what I’ve tried to explain in this thread, especially the following part: So, can feelings develop innocently, sure. But the minute you realize it, the responsibility for what happens after that is totally yours.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by turtlehead:
<strong> atruheart, I think your "warm fuzzy" and the built-in antennae thing is exactly what Suzet and I are calling the "in-love" feelings. That initial "uh-oh".</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yip! This is exactly what I meant! Thanks turtlehead! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Many times people possess that “warm fuzzy” feelings before boundaries is crossed from a platonic friendship into an EA. This is what I’ve tried to explain with this thread and by RJ’s example originally… (This was also my own experience during my friendship with XOM). Although RJ wasn’t radically honest with her H about her unmet needs and feelings she developed for Bob, she however developed that “warm fuzzy feelings” for Bob before there was any affair or inappropriate involvement between them. Usually those “warm fuzzy” feelings is a warning sign (the built-in antenna) that indicates that feelings have became inappropriate and that contact or the type of involvement with the person needs to change or have to stop before things progressed to an A. Many people choose however NOT to pay attention to this “warning signs” and became involved into an A by their own wrong choices and actions. Again, feelings can't be chosen... Actions can... In many cases actions may lead to the feelings, but the feelings itself is still not a conscious choice.

Dr Harly have said himself that: ”The emotional reactions we have toward people, whether its attraction or repulsion, is not a matter of choice.” This is Dr Harelys own words I have copied from this website… Scott Peck also supports Dr Harely's statement in his book “The road less traveled”:

”We can choose how to respond to the experience of falling of love, but we cannot choose the experience itself. Many, many people possessing a feeling of love and even acting in response to that feeling act in all manner of unloved and destructive ways. It is not only possible but necessary for a loving person to avoid acting on feelings of love. I may meet a woman who strongly attracts me, whom I feel like loving, but because it would be destructive to my marriage to have an affair at that time, I will say vocally or in the silence of my heart, ‘I feel like loving you, but I am not going to’. My feelings of love may be unbounded, but my capacity to be loving is limited. I therefore must choose the person on whom to focus my capacity to love, toward whom to direct my will to love. True love is not a feeling by which we are overwhelmed. It is a committed, thoughtful decision. Real love is an action, an activity. Genuine love is volitional rather than emotional. The person who truly love does so because of a decision to love. This person has made a commitment to be loving whether or not the loving feeling is present. If it is, so much the better; but if it isn’t, the commitment to love, the will to love, still stands and is still exercised."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by atrueheart:
<strong>And I am SO greatful for that Suzet! That I have not experienced and learned what you have...I am also greatful my H hasn't either. We would not be able to recovery in that case.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Atrueheart, I get the idea that you don’t have a CLUE exactly what I’ve learned from my experience… Please read THIS POST and then you will have a better understanding of my situation and why I’ve became vulnerable and have made the wrong choices in the first place. Then you will see that what I've learned is indeed a blessing... If you’re interested you can also read the following posts (it will not take much of your time):

Post 1
Post 2

<small>[ June 04, 2004, 05:43 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>

Suzet,

I am actually tired and dizzy from listening..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Please don't be offended. I respect that you still may be being defensive of your own situation. But you prove over and over by your own quotes and posts here that LOVE is a CHOICE!

I am just so sorry that you and other WS didn't have this information before...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> could have saved the feelings of H/W and OM/ow.... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> And probably a lot of M's!

What makes the diff. between those of us who know when the line is being crossed???? BEATS me...how do I explain it to you??? I fear that it is a more sensitive conscious ~ or perhaps more common sense? Now...this is NOT meant to make you angry, remember I have a FWS here with me..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But.....I am so happy that WS's who did not "get it" before now can because of posts like this!!

Have a wonderful day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Blessings,
Atruheart

Atrueheart,

Thanks for your post. I’m sorry my posts and responses made you feel so upset and frustrated. Anyway, I appreciate the time you have taken to read and respond to my posts. I don’t know if you have read the links to my other posts as well, but I was SO hoping you would have a better understanding of my situation after you’ve read those links. I believe we are all a sum total of our experiences, circumstances and lessons in life. I believe all those things helps form our perceptions in life and how we think and feel about things in life. If we try to explain those things to someone, we can help people having a better understanding of ourselves and that’s all what I’ve tried to accomplish with my previous post and links to you. Anyway, thanks for “listening”. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Like you, I’m here to seek guidance when necessary and giving guidance, support & understanding to other people as well. If my experience and what I’ve learned from it can just help one person in this world not making the same mistakes I did, then it was worth the pain… But so many times we must learn our lessons in life the hard & painful way before we can truly gain something out of it… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Atrueheart, I don’t want to debate with you any longer, but please allow me to correct one misunderstanding: I get the idea that you (and also some other posters here) have confused the concepts of real love and romantic love on this particular thread. I was questioning whether “falling” in love (feelings) is a choice, NOT whether love itself (true/real love that involves action) is a choice… Maybe this is why you’ve got so frustrated with my posts and why you’ve continue to misunderstand and interpret my posts the wrong way. Let my try to explain again:

Real love (action) is the Godly/agape love as described in 1 Corinthians 13 and the type of love we are suppose to exercise towards ALL people. Romantic love is an emotional reaction and the “warm fuzzy” feelings between a man and woman that cause them to “fall” in love. Real/true love and ”falling” in love (feelings of love) is NOT the same thing. People often confuse these two different types of love with each other. In my opinion, romantic love (“in love” feelings) is closely linked to attraction and infatuation. If you read the links, quotes and everything I’ve said on this thread very closely, you will see that I have clearly distinguished between real/true love (activity) and our emotional reactions (feelings) towards other people. I’ve said that real/true love IS a choice, but that our emotional reactions towards other people is NOT a choice (Dr Harley also supports this statement on his website). Actions may unwittingly lead to feelings, but feelings itself can’t be chosen. However, we can control our actions and decide how to act on feelings. It’s possible to control our feelings with our actions, but we can’t control and choose the feelings itself. As EricM have said: “So, can feelings develop innocently, sure. But the minute you realize it, the responsibility for what happens after that is totally yours”.

Feelings are irrelevant if it will cause harm and pain to other people. However, the feelings may still be there and difficult to overcome… If a FWS can see where exactly the boundary was crossed the first time, then they can take preventive steps to avoid the “traps” in future and not making the same mistakes again. One can only learn from your mistakes, weaknesses & vulnerabilities if you are aware of them and know what caused them… If it was all just a matter of “common sense” then SO many FWS (including good, intelligent & Christian people) wouldn’t “fall in the trap” to begin with. Things are not always that simple...

Atrueheart, if you still disagree with me, then at least we can respectfully agree to disagree and have an understanding for each other’s different opinions and viewpoints. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I only hope the best for you and your H during this time of recovery. Enjoy the rest of your weekend! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ June 05, 2004, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>

Originally posted by Suzet:
"The fact is, the line where normal friendship cross into an EA can be very blurry and it’s very easy for people to unwittingly cross that line from friendship into beginning of EA or inappropriate feelings if they are not careful and not aware of your own weaknesses and vulnerabilities…"

Here's a fairly simple way to tell where that crossing the line begins... and it is NOT blurry AT ALL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If there is * ~anything~ * about the opposite sex friendship that is not 100% exposed to your spouse .... the line has been crossed.

And it can NOT be * ~ unwitting~ * if the truth of the growing friendship is kept secret from the spouse.

If ANY husband or wife finds him/her self editing the truth .... keeping facts about their life from their spouse ...

the line has been crossed.

And, unless there is a brain problem ... one must be aware they are beginning to leave their spouse out of the loop .... as far as what things they feel for , say to , do with their opposite sex friend.

Pep

Pep, many thanks for your post! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I agree with you, but your definition indicates where the line in a opposite sex friendship is crossed through wrong actions (e.g. doing and saying things with a friend you keep secret from your spouse; doing things which you know is wrong etc.) I was referring to situations where people develop inappropriate feelings for a opposite sex friend without necessarily acting wrong towards the friend or keep something secret from the spouse… I was talking about the point where feelings of care, concern, support, interest for a friend cross the boundary into “in love” (“warm fuzzy”) feelings. Let me explain with the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by EricM:
<strong>Sure it is possible for feelings of love to develop innocently. You spend time with a friend of your spouse and they are not doing anything to try and hit on you or come on to you, yet you develop feelings for them. Ok, no harm, no foul.

However, at some point, you will realize that your feelings go beyond friendship. At that point is where you can transition from it being innocent to allowing boundaries to be crossed, intending to accept flattery or needs being met.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the above example (also the example of RJ I used in the beginning of this thread) boundaries has not yet been crossed, although feelings has already became inappropriate.

I think I should have titled this thread: “To members who believe our emotional reaction towards other people is a choice” in stead of “Too members who believe “falling” in love is a choice”. Maybe things would have been less confusing then... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I’ve recognized afterwards that some posters have confused actions of love with feelings of love which is NOT the same thing!

<small>[ June 07, 2004, 05:17 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>