there are red flags in this post...posing this type of questions four years post affair..

Maybe... but maybe not.

Perhaps his W is seeking a path to greater understanding.....

And the recovery timeline depends on how long and how many A's the BS is trying to recover from.

For instance: 2Long's WW's A has been on and off for more than 12 years.... 4 years may not be long enough for 2Long to reach equilibrium in his recovery.

Recovery is very subjective.... and the quietness between difficult questions also counts!

Pep

<small>[ June 07, 2004, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

atrueheart,

The situation that ash describes in his marriage is almost identical to mine....though he isn't my husband. I have no doubt in my mind, that just because I was able to forgive my husband that DOESN'T MEAN that ash's wife's heart "bled" more than mine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I don't believe she felt worse betrayal, or that my heart is simply less sensiive or smaller. I don't believe her heart is slower to heal than mine, and I am certain that my husband was NOT more remorseful or kind following the affair.

There is a pschological term for what ark is talking about here...it's called "secondary gain" and it deals with the unconscious benefits that some people derive from remaining victims and refusing to move past difficult events like infidelity (even once the infidelity is no longer occurring)

Harley discusses it himself here about a spouse who is unable to move past the affair:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hanging on to an unpleasant thought because it helps us somehow is what psychologists call "secondary gain." It means that even though the thought is unpleasant, it gets you something you need, so your mind keeps it around for its usefulness. There are many unpleasant thoughts that have this characteristic, and I have helped many people let them go by helping them destroy the usefulness of the thought. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People use secondary gain for a variety of reasons....some to punish, manipulate, evoke pity, sympathy or special care...the list goes on and on. And it is a real dynamic that occurs very often post affair with folks who just can't seem to EVER put it behind them. If you can't EVER get over an affair even though remorse, repentance, time, accountability and energy are recomitted to by the WS...it is no longer the affair that is the biggest threat to your marriage....but your choice to remain unforgiving and resentful.

The affair as you say is not a choice. Most of life's challenges are not choices for that matter. Choosing to be emotionally crippled and NEVER recovering however IS a choice. If my mother dies...it wouldn't be my choice. I would grieve badly, scream, cry and having trouble moving on. I might never forget my mother's death....but I wouldn't live in pain over that indefinitely unless I derived some secondary gain from doing so.

Harley considers the never ending throwing of an affair back into a WS's face as abuse. His is quite clear that should a spouse be unwilling to EVER forgive, that a WS should not tolerate that situation indefinitely. NO ONE expect a BS to FORGET infidelity....but that is way different from forgiving. Inability to forgive is unhealthy and is not the sign of more tender heart...there is no heart any more tender than mine and it is full of forgiveness. Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves.

<small>[ June 07, 2004, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Dear All MBers,

I thank you for your responses to my question posted in this thread.

First of all let me clarify one salient aspect from my side. This question was not posted in order to seek confirmation to my line of thought. But to seek more broad based opinion and comments on the same, irrespective of these be favourable or unfavourable to me.

As to my Affairs, I would like to once again reiterate to all who responded, I fully agree to the fact it was a very sinful, hurtful, mean and deceitful act against my W. For this, I am repenting very much.

It is a different matter that my W has not been able to overcome the effects of my misdemeanours till now ( four years since D Day). I can fully understand her stand point and have absolutely no grudges against this, how can I? What she is undergoing is the Effect and I am the Cause. Each person is built differently by dear God, and each person reacts differently and my W has every right to her stand point and way of reacting against my misdemeanours.

Also for the information of all those who have responded and commented on my thread, I do not have any form of communication with the OPs either now or had even after the ONS. These were as I mentioned sexual escapeds indulged while I was out of town. I guess, my moral turpitude did not sway me from these sinful acts.

I appreciate the Link referred. I will certainly visit the same and go through this minutely. May be this will be a worthwhile learning experience.

I thank each of your for your opinion. With best wishes.

BUMP! BUMP! BUMP!

It's just so depressing that your wife is still suffering so much. I'm at the 20 month point and I am a slow healer too. Could you ask your wife if she thinks she'd have done better if she'd left you instead of trying to hang in there and get over it?

I think your question is a bit pointless. Casual sex is meant to be more fun. Becuase it's so naughty and new. I dunno. Is divorce more fun too? maybe none of us should be married so we could all have causual sex and have more fun. At least it would be a level playing field.

OK Ash...I'm gonna stab at this one more time...with the understanding that I agree 100000% that people have the right to not to be able to get past or heal from some things....

BUT the inability to not get past and not heal should not become their indentifiable approach to life and all situations....

YOUR WORDS are what lead me to believe that the two of you are not very far down the road of recovery....

here are your words...

I am the WS and we are still struggling to recover from the disclosures of my past PAs.

My BS(wife) is very distraught and may be she will never recover (that is what she continues to state for the past four years - The D Day).

The D Day). For which I hold myself fully responsible and repentant.

I fully agree to the fact it was a very sinful, hurtful, mean and deceitful act against my W. For this, I am repenting very much.

What she is undergoing is the Effect and I am the Cause.

and each person reacts differently and my W has every right to her stand point and way of reacting against my misdemeanours.

Here's what I have to say...

you two have the right to choose to live your life from the point of D-day in a perpertual dance of you repenting and she not getting past any of it...
that is your choice...

BUT
it is not marriage building..
it is not forming a new union stronger than the one before..
it is not following marriage building principles...

it is a perpetual state of capitivity that you both have the right to choose to live in...
but it is not going to be an equal partnership of support, cherishing and even joy if the roles are now defined by your actions from four years ago...and the longer you two stay in this holding pattern the more difficult it will be to change...

that your wifes inability to get over it...will become the final outcome rather than then ever true recovery....

she will become more and more accustomed to the role of punisher and victim just as you state several times in your post you are comfortable with your role of repenter...

marriage is NOT about power and control..

[b]What she is undergoing is the Effect and I am the Cause. [/b]

ash you were the cause once....if you have changed and left that PERSON in the dust...then you deserve to be treated thusly....
it is my understanding that Mary Magdeline was forgiven by Jesus....by the words now go and sin no more....God loves when we can see the harm of actions and then stop the harmful actions....

you deserve forgiveness wwhen you repent and sin no more....(with all the work needed to show repentence...).

repentence is an act...and though people do choose to live in repentence....when that state of living thusly blocks joy and celebration of Gods gifts in our lives and marriages...then the state of repentence becomes more a habit and role...

][B]What she is undergoing is the Effect
I am not sure that she is undergoing anything...but that she has arrived at a place that feels comfortable for her to live in....

always the rightous one
always the one to see you perhaps having a good day...and to make sure she can put you back in your place...

and i mean this without malice and confrontation to you and her on personal level...

but I am challenging you to look at the STATE of RECOVERY...
I also warn you seriously that the longer we live in using certain patterns and coping mechanism....especially ones that don't serve the best interest of our spouses as well as ourselves....


then we are danger of getting stumped....
and in danger have just replacing old bad pre-affair habits with other bad ones or worse ones...

four years ash...
four years of struggling your words....
when does one stop struggling and start addressing...

four years ASH...as much as God calls us to repent he also calls that marriage be a joyful celebration of love....

that we need to strive to live up to Gods visions of marriage...ESPECIALLY post affair when people claim to want recovery....


(slam away and realize I understand that you have the right to choose this type of marriage...my question is ...is it the type of marriage you desire....)

ARK

Ash,
Maybe this will help your wife. Like your wife, I'm still carrying baggage from my H's affair 4 years ago. Although his was not just 2 physical encounters. He had a 15 month A with one woman and then I found out that there was another one prior to that which was also a PA, but no sexual contact, just kissing. Still does the same damage. However, back to my humble opinion. And by the way, this also helped me put things into perspective for my own relationship. (I don't still beat him up, but the subject does still come up from time to time) Like I told him, I'll get passed it but I'll never get over it.

I think the answer is very simple. Making Love is the demonstration of and showing of your most intimate feeling towards your significant other. Having their best interests at heart. The sex 'act' is just that. An act.... Here are some definitions of the word from the dictionary.

ACT:
1. a short performance by one or more entertainers

2. false show; pretense

3. to operate or function in a particular way; perform specific duties or functions

4. to pretend; feign

6. to perform as an actor

7. to be capable of being performed

8. to serve or substitute

I never really realized just how powerful that little three letter word was until I looked it up. Makes sense to me. So in answer to the question.
Question:
What is the difference between "Making Love to your Spouse" and "Having Sexual acts with your OP"?
When you have sexual 'acts' with the OP, that's pretty much all it is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> AN ACT!

Good luck and God Bless!

Originally posted by ark^^:

that your wifes inability to get over it...will become the final outcome rather than then ever true recovery....

Ark...

I am wearing my BS recovery hat now...

a hat I hope you never wear...

Ark... one never "gets over" betrayal of this nature.

I am not disagreeing with the intent of your post... mostly I want to say this...

I vehemently disagree with the wording " your wife's inability to get over it" ....

The way this was stated ... my BS heart just sank....

It is NEVER gone from one's memory. Not unless there is brain disfunction which errases memory. . Not unlike a rape Ark. One heals and grieves after a rape, and moves forward with caution... but it IS a part of one's history ever after. Like severe physical injury, one is never 100% the same.

So it is with experiencing the betrayal of adultery .... there is healing, but never 100%. This type of injury also leaves one forever changed... a residual.

Even with myself ... there is a place I hold this old hurt ... and I mostly use it to my advantage ... to teach me humility and forgiveness ... but there are times it is just hurt... not anything else... just hurt.

To hear "get over it" .... just sent chills to my neck hairs. Those words are too often spoken by the unreasonable WS sometimes to belittle the humungous damage that was done.

And Ark ... if Ash has commited multiple acts of betrayal ... "getting over it" may be long in the making.

I DO UNDERSTAND what your intent was Ark ... however, you choice of words made me uneasy ...Many times a BS will ask themselves,

"Why can't I just get over it?" ....

Because this is an UNreasonable expectation, in my opinion, and in my experience.

Love ya Ark,

Pep

Pep....

the nature of the beast of posting on a message board....

I don't mean it to come across as get over it...
I apologize if that is how it sounds....

I believe that part of resolving any conflict is choice and committing to resolving...as well as emotion....

I don't mean get over it...as in get over it...
and I can't imagine it goes away...

but there must be some choice in moving towards resolving....and rebuilding....

and from ashes own words are from where I gather there is still great pain and struggle....and people can get stuck in that pain...and can eventually obtain gains from that perpetual state of pain and struggle...

if four years post digression
and four years of repentance...
and compassion is one sided....
then I think it's a flag....

I do think people choose recovery
and in that choice comes actions that are painful to the BS...in the face of great unfairness...but sometimes letting go of the unfairness...realizing that it can not be changed....and one needs to push past that...

If four years post digression with all requirements of accountability met then something not working...

and pep...you posting this same question to your husband....can and would be a healthy growing experience...probably for the both of you...
both able to look at the question and both hear eachothers answers...

but Ashes description of his wifes struggle and continued state of distraught....sounds like a lonely and chaotic place to be...in which people can't really HEAR the other because all they hear is their own pain...for which there is no blame...but the cycle can continue or be broken....

pep I would never take the get over it stance...
and apologize on my lack of better wording...to all BS....

AND

but I would encourage anyone still in the same place post four years trauma...to seriously step back and look at the bigger picture of where people really want to go and be...
and to try to seek balance of some joy and relief from the pain as well.....NOT to belittle the pain or damage done...please don't misunderstand...


AND
I could be way off on my interperation of ashes state...
but I see red flags..
but my vision can be off...
Heaven knows it has been in the past...

ARK

Thanks Ark...

My H says that he wasn't ever in love with me, he just "cared for me". Says he still "cares for me".

He said he never "made love" to her when we were married. But he doesn't talk about now. So I guess it is implied what he's doing...

People use secondary gain for a variety of reasons....some to punish, manipulate, evoke pity, sympathy or special care...the list goes on and on. And it is a real dynamic that occurs very often post affair with folks who just can't seem to EVER put it behind them. If you can't EVER get over an affair even though remorse, repentance, time, accountability and energy are recomitted to by the WS...it is no longer the affair that is the biggest threat to your marriage....but your choice to remain unforgiving and resentful.

Star, I am really disturbed by your post. I am willing to think on it and try to see if it applies to me. The other poster who was more accusetory (sP?) of people who can't/won't recover, lost me entirely. (somethng about the difference between honey and vinager)

The trouble with places like this is that it doesn't take into account people's mental conditions. For all you know, I might be a barking lunatic - I sure do a good impersonation of one sometimes.

I feel I need more mental health work than I can get here. I'm seriously depressed and my &*^%$& hormones are driving me to suicide. I'm 51 and since the A, PMS has returned with avengence. I get so black at period times, the only peaceful thoughts I can muster are of death.

I seriously dispute that i get anything out of feeling like this. I have nothing to gain by not healing. You are talking to a neurotic. I spent four years once worrying about the house we'd just bought being built on wooden stumps. What the hell am I going to do with an A?

Some of us don't have the mental skills to put things in perspective. Actually not all our circumstances are the same. i live next door to OW, which doesn't help!!!!!!!!!! Taht and a miraid of aspects to it that have brought me tomy knees.

I liked you post, jsut the same.

Pep:

"For instance: 2Long's WW's A has been on and off for more than 12 years.... 4 years may not be long enough for 2Long to reach equilibrium in his recovery."

GROAN! Not FOUR YEARS!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I personally believe that NOT recovering from one's spouse's A is not a viable option. That does not mean 2 say that the M recovers, but that the people need 2 recover in order 2 be emotionally healthy human being types of lifeforms.

Having said that, I'm not always doing much of a good job of it. Case in point: Penny told me the classic "definition of insanity" in a very pointed manner this morning:

"If you always do what you've always done you will always get what you've always got."

My assignment is 2 write a 1000 word essay about that. Well, ac2ally, it's 500, because there was another statement she wanted an essay about!

ash: I found out about my W's 11-yr A 29 months ago. The PA had "ended" a 2ple of months earlier, but the EA kept reigniting until as recently as about a month ago. I can't make my W "get it" when I can't always get with the program myself, but you're here asking your 2uestions and looking for answers. And I guess I'm hopeful that you'll stick around for your and your W's sake, whether you stay M'd or not. My W won't come here.

-ol' 2long

hi Ash,

Is sex the real issue here? or initimacy which you shared with OW that your W resents? I don't know but am learning to see beyond words...during the "dark time" I would pick semantic arguements with H just to see where we match.

You see when something like A's happen and the spouse is "blindsided" she thinks is this the man I thought I married? Was I wrong to think we shared the same views/values?

Perhaps she is still trying to discover points of connection between you. eg I would not have sex with someone I had no emotional connection to...I make love with my H and sometimes we have "sex" ( here i mean just plain horniness not slow romantic stuff) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But underlying the sex is an emotional attachment that already exists.

IMHO, she is trying to see whether both of you still work as a couple...in the sense of having the same views and values.

Talking sometimes helps a lot. Actions sometimes do to....maybe you could remind her of what making love feels like? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi BSF,

My Bs is very clear in her thought. She is not envious about sexual flings I had two OW. Her contention is that, how could I have? Then she corroborates these acts of mine as total lack of love, feelings and care from me to her. Or else, she says, if I had love, feelings and care for her, I could not have gone to bed with these two OW whom, she agrees I hardly knew.

She is also very clear in her thought that she will neither be able to forgive nor forget. At the sametime, she also adds that will not allow me to forget these episodes till Kingdom comes.

I am prepared to accept any thing and every thing from her side to me, as an Effect. But what pains me most is the terrible trauma, pain, and hurt my poor BS is undergoing because of me. I only pray and hope she would be able to overcome these someday, with or without me - that is an option open only to her.

I thank each of you for your insights and comments. These have helped me to derive at some conviction. But I will not leave any stone unturned to try and Rebuild my marriage, even if it has the slimest chance. I know the results are not in my hand butI can only put in my best efforts in this process.

With best regards to all MBers who responded.

Hang in there ash....
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
You have an uphill battle but you sound like a decent chap who has loads of patience.

Dear All,

I was traveling for the past two weeks hence was unable to visit the MBsite. Thank you all for your valuable opinion, comments, suggestions and support. This is much appreciated.

In my last posting, I had mentioned “My wife is not envious about my EMS with OWs.”
Somehow, this triggered very strong emotion from her side. In actuality, my statement did not mean to convey a sentiment that my wife in other wards does not mind my sexual flings and philandering. That was not intended. If any of you felt that way, I stand corrected.

I would like to reiterate, my wife has very serious objections to my philandering and has not been able to accept this for the past + four years. And according to her, she might not be able to accept and overcome ever. Therefore, I have to accept any and all decisions of her vis a vis our relationship and M.

Ark had asked in one of her posts, if my W visits MBSite. Yes she does. Though she has not posted to the best of my knowledge. For her, EMS is sinful and having perpetrated, I have proven my lack of love, concern and even her existence. She can not accept this.

I hope my original enquiry is not being misunderstood. With best wishes.

Ash...

There should be no mis-understanding that I have such a hard time with your wife...

it just sounds like people stuck in a (un)comfortable cycle of control and blame...

and if you choose to accept that position that is your choice....

just as I believe that it is her choice to be in a state of "I can't get past this"...which she may not be able to do...but I must question how much she is trying to actively work past that stage...

OR
deciding she can't get past it...and setting you and her free from this captivity...

And according to her, she might not be able to accept and overcome ever.

you two may be stuck in that quagmire forever...
which does not serve anyone ....especially God..

For her, EMS is sinful and having perpetrated, I have proven my lack of love, concern and even her existence. She can not accept this.

identification of the sins....
the act of changing the behaviors and becoming someone removed from the sin..

and forgiveness....

when we talk of sins...
I believe we must talk of forgiveness...

ASH...I feel for both of you....
your willingness to submit to whatever punishment she deals out over past digression with noted changed behaviors disturbs me...

and don't misunderstand that this is not with lack of compassion to your wife...

I wish she would post here...so that people who feel and have felt the way she does could talk to her..about the pitfalls of getting stuck in a place...

what is confusing is that if she really can't accept what happened..
why doesn't she set you and herself free from it...


ark