Another article I'd like to share...it talks about homosexuality in other cultures.

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/5679/uvapaper.html

ML,

I don't know what to say, other than we may just have to agree to disagree. And, to be honest, I don't think we're disagreeing to THAT great an extent.

I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, that man should be free to break the word of God willfully, without repercussion.

It's like you're speaking Chinese and I'm speaking Russian or something.

What I have said, and still maintain, is that the Bible is open to interpretation. For any one scripture either of us were to put forth to try and prove a point, the other could come up with 4 others that seem to contradict that initial quote. I mean, you can't disagree that there is contradiction within the Bible itself, can you?

My understanding of judgement comes from such a "contradiction" within the Bible. In the Old Testament it says, "An Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth". (I'm paraphrasing) To me that indicates that yes, we have an obligation and an authority to evoke CIVIL judgement over our fellow man. We have the right and the responsibility to make sure that justice is served in certain situations.

But then in the New Testament it says, "Turn the other cheek". Now what does that mean? Does it mean not to judge? Some would say it does. Does it mean to judge, but then forgive? Possibly. Probably, in fact. But who's job is it to grant forgiveness. Some scripture says it's God's place; in other places we're told to forgive not 7 times, nor 70 times, but 7 times 70.

So to summarize...I believe that we are called upon to provide civil judgement upon others, in order to keep a civil society. I do not believe that it is my place to judge someone else morally. Now, we DO have laws that are based on morality, and to be honest, for the most part they either don't work, aren't enforcible, or are just plain ignored. Things like oral sex being illegal even between a married couple.

Then there are the Biblical Laws. NO ONE, and I challenge you to prove me wrong on this, but NO ONE abides by all the laws in the Bible.

So what right does anyone have to judge someone who's homosexual, or believes that homosexuals should have equal rights, when they themselves probably break many of the laws or rules in the Bible every day?

Everyone covets.

Everyone sins.

Everyone does something that the Bible says they're not supposed to.

SO why don't we worry more about improving our own life structure to be more in line with God's teachings, than worrying about condemning others for their transgressions? I personally, could spend two lifetimes fixing my own problems...what right do I have to try and fix yours when I don't even have my own in order?

That's all I've been trying to say all along. Let the gays worry about whether or not they're getting into heaven, and let's all worry about whether or not WE'RE getting into heaven.

Bob

<small>[ June 18, 2004, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Plumb Bob ]</small>

Bob, we still come back to the same place. There ain't no place in the Bible where it says not to judge. It says just the opposite. Turning the other cheek doesn't mean don't judge. Nor is there any place in the Bible that says that it is a sin for folks outside of a jury setting to say that a murderer is a murderer. The Bible says just the opposite. Nor does this have anything to do with forgiveness, it is an entirely different subject.

I realize it is hard to understand in some places, but the Bible doesn't contradict itself. Rather, the failing comes on the part of people who are too lazy to research the real meaning. And instead of admitting that, they take the easy way out and blame the book instead of the real source: themselves.

It is not the worlds' only incomprehensible book. God expects us to study and understand it. If we have trouble understanding a passage, that doesn't mean we throw up our hands and cry "uncle," it means we try harder to understand it. And thankfully, God gave us a brain to do so. The Bible is amazingly accurate, much more so than MEN that are so eager to discredit it.

I don't know about you, but I have no intention of standing before God on judgement day and trying to explain that I don't know the Bible because I was too stupid to figure it out. I think He expected much better.

So, if you are having trouble understanding it and believe there are condradictions, I would only suggest some further research instead of dismissing it out of hand.

On the other hand, it is most curious to me that you proclaim to not be able to understand the Bible, but then feel entitled to have an opinion about Biblical issues. How can you argue against issue if you don't understand it, as you claim?

I mean, it sure doesn't help bolster your case, Bob.

[quote]Then there are the Biblical Laws. NO ONE, and I challenge you to prove me wrong on this, but NO ONE abides by all the laws in the Bible. [/qyote]

huh? No one ever said otherwise, so I guess I don't get your point.

<small>[ June 18, 2004, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

And you obviously never will....like I said Russian and Chinese.

You believe what you want, I'll believe what I want. Find someone else to convert.

Bob

Oh, and since there are no errors or contradictions in the Bible, I've saved this one til last...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. 12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have a nice day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ June 18, 2004, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Plumb Bob ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Plumb Bob:
<strong> And you obviously never will....like I said Russian and Chinese.

You believe what you want, I'll believe what I want. Find someone else to convert.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Convert you to what? I thought you were already a Christian? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Didn't mean to interrupt this thread, but:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then there are the Biblical Laws. NO ONE, and I challenge you to prove me wrong on this, but NO ONE abides by all the laws in the Bible.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Everyone covets.

Everyone sins.

Everyone does something that the Bible says they're not supposed to. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I so much agree with this. The lesson I learned from Jesus' teachings on judgments, when he talked about removing the plank from your own eye before you remove the speck out of someone else's, was that how can we tell someone else, how can we point out someone else's sins when ours are no better?

A speck and a plank are two different things. He didn't say remove your own speck, meaning that you're doing the same exact thing he is so you need to worry about yourself first before you tell him about his, he said remove your plank. Being hypocritical is when you tell someone else not to do something yet you do it yourself. In that case, I understand ML's point, but I think what Jesus was getting at was that we're all guilty of SOMETHING, therefore, what right do we have to point out someone else's flaws, sins, whatever, when we're no better ourselves. Yes, our sins are DIFFERENT, but no less sinful.

The Pharisees were telling people, You can't come worship because of this..., You can't come worship because of that..., yet Jesus tried to point out to them that NO ONE is sin-free. We ALL need God as much as the next guy. So what right did THEY have to not allow people to worship JUST BECAUSE they were sinners? What he wanted the Pharisees to see was that we are ALL sinners.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StandingTogether:
<strong> The lesson I learned from Jesus' teachings on judgments, when he talked about removing the plank from your own eye before you remove the speck out of someone else's, was that how can we tell someone else, how can we point out someone else's sins when ours are no better?

A speck and a plank are two different things. He didn't say remove your own speck, meaning that you're doing the same exact thing he is so you need to worry about yourself first before you tell him about his, he said remove your plank. Being hypocritical is when you tell someone else not to do something yet you do it yourself. In that case, I understand ML's point, but I think what Jesus was getting at was that we're all guilty of SOMETHING, therefore, what right do we have to point out someone else's flaws, sins, whatever, when we're no better ourselves. Yes, our sins are DIFFERENT, but no less sinful.

The Pharisees were telling people, You can't come worship because of this..., You can't come worship because of that..., yet Jesus tried to point out to them that NO ONE is sin-free. We ALL need God as much as the next guy. So what right did THEY have to not allow people to worship JUST BECAUSE they were sinners? What he wanted the Pharisees to see was that we are ALL sinners.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Standingtogether, thanks for posting, this is an EXCELLENT post! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I SO agree with you and Plumb Bob on this…

Surely others are entitled to their own opinions as well, but as long as they can do it respectfully and without forcing their different opinions on others in an arrogant and disrespectful way, I think these boards will be such a better place! And just as people have the right to differ, people who share the same viewpoints and values in life ALSO have the right to AGREE and have a friendly discussion about it without other people interfere disrespectfully and with the intent to highjack and turn it into a debate in stead. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Anyway, Plumb Bob, Jilliana and any others who wants to continue the original friendly discussion, please feel free to do so! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 03:14 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> Suzet, once again you have twisted scripture out of context and I would like to show you how. Instead of continuing here, why not email me at dana100@cablelynx.com if you want me to show you how?

I also don't want to hijack eric's thread any more than it has been but I do feel an obligation to show you where you have, once again, misinterpreted a very CLEAR scripture. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Melodylane, please don’t feel obliged to try to prove or show anything to me... I’m not interested at all since it is clear as daylight that we don’t share the same viewpoints or values here… So, continuing with this debate will just go around in circles and lead us nowhere… I don’t mean to offend, so just accept it like that. You know, it’s just very interesting that every time I post something on this subject you try SO hard to find something small (like a scripture) to attack me on and then ignore the rest of my posts. Nowhere on any post have I post anything out of context on my opinion, it was just your perception because you WANT to disagree and have the last word at all costs and you will do and say ANYTHING to try and prove someone wrong you disagrees with…. I even get the impression that although you will see the truth in something, you will STILL deny it or disagree with it because you are too proud to acknowledge there is truth in it… Let me ask you this: Except the two scriptures I’ve post on my last post on Eric’s thread, why haven’t you respond to ANY of the other things I’ve said to you in my post??? The answer is because you KNOW it is the truth, but you are just too damn proud to acknowledge it!

MelodyLane, to give someone credit or acceptance for some truth they post (even if you don’t agree with everything they say), won’t make you any less of a person, I promise you. In fact, they will just gain some respect for you and in the process become more open and willing to hear what you have to say. A “let me teach you” or “I know better than you” attitude is no good, just give the impression that you're arrogant and only lead to bad feelings between people. What is wrong with you saying: “Suzet, I hear you and I understand your viewpoint, but there is some things I disagree with. In my opinion you have quote some verses out of context and I want to show you why I’m saying this”, but now you’re posting: “Once again you have done this and this…BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.” MelodyLane, I try my uttermost best to talk respectfully to other people on an adult-adult basis (since we all are adults with our own viewpoints and opinions that needs to be respect by others), but if you want to talk to me on a parent-child basis like this, it’s better that you don't post me (or to this thread) anymore.

Thank you,
Suzet

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Sorry, double post.

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet, I am sorry you feel "attacked," but I don't believe that disagreeing with someone is "attacking" them. By that standard, you are attacking me when you disagree with me. You seem to be taking it personally and it is not intended to be personal at all.

As far as posting the "truth" as you claim, you must DEMONSTRATE your points with facts and evidence in order to come to that conclusion. You haven't been able to do that. Just saying "I posted the truth and you don't like it" doesn't substantiate your case. The facts have shown just the opposite.

And I am always open to the truth, however, you have not been able to substantiate your case and never will be, because it is an incorrect reading of scripture as I have already shown over and over again.

And Suzet, if you want to drop the subject then why do you keep bringing it up over and over again? I thought the subject had been beaten to death personally, and here you are bringing it up again and again. And you accuse ME of wanting the "last word?" Now c'mon..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Suzet..

lets just clear up a few things on this whole eric judgement debate issue..

1. I am the one that started the thread on judgement....


2. there is no judgement or debate here on this board that indifelity is wrong.It is wrong....and NO one on erics' original thread ever personally attacked Eric....people posted eloquant pitfalls to his choice...

and I will never agree that it is justified no matter what his spouse does or doesn't do...because it will never help fix anything..it will raise the recovery wall higher and higher...and that's not personal judgement against eric or anyone else...in my opinion it is fact....

Melody who never said a peep to Eric....and his issues...just posts some response to my thread that was just a very general comment...

and YOU Suzet jump all over MelodyLane...

and even more ironic in my point of view...or judgement...

it is you that attack melody on a more personal level...than Eric ever was in his post ...

You know, it’s just very interesting that every time I post something on this subject you try SO hard to find something small (like a scripture) to attack me on and then ignore the rest of my posts

suzet this is what YOU did...not melody..she only replied to me....

YOU started this....

but you are just too damn proud to acknowledge it!

that's a little personal suzet...and does not belong here or on any debate as you want to call it...

and since I am the one that started the whole thing i find it very disappointing...

ARK

Suzet, I am sorry you feel "attacked," but I don't believe that disagreeing with someone is "attacking" them.
MelodyLane, I haven't said "disagreeing" and "attacking" is the same thing. What I HAVE said is that people can disagree RESPECTFULLY and I don't think you always do this by your posts to me and other posters on this thread...

As far as posting the "truth" as you claim, you must DEMONSTRATE your points with facts and evidence in order to come to that conclusion.
The problem is, I can do, say and post everything I want and even come up with the best facts and evidence I want, and you will STILL try to prove me wrong and come up with your own fact and evidence that proves it otherwise (in your opinion). So, on the end everything boils down to different viewpoints, opinions and values and you and I simply don't share these same things... The "TRUTH" is: TO MORALLY JUDGE ANOTHER PERSON IS WRONG! PERIOD!

You have not been able to substantiate your case and never will be, because it is an incorrect reading of scripture as I have already shown over and over again.
Again, this is just YOUR opinion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Why not drop it, Suzet? This has been beaten to death.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> And Suzet, if you want to drop the subject then why do you keep bringing it up over and over again? I thought the subject had been beaten to death personally, and here you are bringing it up again and again. And you accuse ME of wanting the "last word?" Now c'mon..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was just responding to you after you've started this topic again on the other thread. You keep trying making accusations and trying to prove me wrong, so if I just keep quiet, it will show that I agree with you and I'm NOT!!! So, maybe we are both stubborn woman. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...because it is an incorrect reading of scripture... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know what the history is here among the other posters, but as to THIS thread, and the topic I have been discussing, this quote presents a clear picture of the problem as I see it.

ML for some reason believes that there is ONE and ONLY ONE way to interpret the Bible. I would be curious to find out what her religious affiliation is...to see whether that is the "official" stance of her church.

I am a United Methodist (as I asked about hers, it's only appropriate I divulge mine). I believe, and have been taught to believe, that while some things in the Bible are clear to all, many things require a huge amount of personal reflection, prayer, and the establishment of a personal relationship with your Lord and Savior. As you work toward these things, and I say toward because to me it's like a "perfect marriage"...it's not something that is "attained", but rather something that has to be constantly striven for, the true meaning and definition of scripture AS IT PERTAINS TO YOU is revealed to you.

My relationship with Christ is not defined by my church...it is defined by the participants...my Lord and myself. It is not, nor ever will be, defined by ML, or anyone else, who is "outside the conversation".

In my opinion, no one has the right to tell anyone else that their relationship with Christ is wrong.

And that's all I have to say on this matter. It's obvious that ML and I will never agree; so I will agree to disagree.

Bob

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my opinion, no one has the right to tell anyone else that their relationship with Christ is wrong.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well Bob, since I have never told anyone any such thing I guess you aren't addressing this to me. And I have no "religious" affiliation; I am a Christian.

Even so, this subject has been beat to death and hopefully we can get back to the subject of marriage building. Take care and God Bless! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Ark, for your information, I started THIS thread to have a friendly discussion about this issue with other posters... And then ML and someone else creeped in here disrespectfully and turned this whole thread into a debate. What did you expect from me? Just to keep silent and accept it? I don't think so! Certainly I'm entitled to my own opinion as well on THIS thread! When I originally started to respond to ML on the other thread, I was just stating my OPINION. That's all. Anyways, I'm sorry you're so dissapointed with this whole thing.

Blessings,
Suzet

Suzet, what is disrespectful is starting up threads to talk about other posters and your issues with them. There is nothing "friendly" about that.

That is about as snarky and hostile as you can get. You can't realistically expect to come here and OPENLY talk about other people and not expect them to defend themselves.

Now c'mon, that is ludicrous.

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And you accuse ME of wanting the "last word?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep.