FL...Forgive me for repeating myself but when I keep up with people who remind me so much of myself I have to jump in again...Please go today and buy that book that I mentioned before.."Freedom from the Ties that Bind"...I'm telling you that you will think that Guy Finley wrote that just for you. God used that book in an awesome way to change me from the inside. I can't even describe to you in words the change that has taken place in my life. I have read more books than I can count looking for an answer to my "issues". This book addressed everyone of them.

I think for anyone here who has been a WS, this book will speak to you as well as the BS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i just can't go back to having the type of relationship we have had for the majority of our time together. i just can't stand being so insignificant to him. i can't take having such a non-emotional relationship anymore. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FL-

Re-read what Pep said. (I like her! Seems smart, grounded.)

Anyway,

Last night at IC I was asked what I discovered about myself in the past week. I thought for a moment and then blurted out…

I am feeling a lot of the same things I was before my A.

Now, for presumably different reasons, my EN’s are not being met. I am experiencing some of the same challenges, longings, needs…

Choices…

My C helped me explore these feelings; eyes started leaking, again…

Felt better at the end of the hour. Still do.

I<--bonehead, think maybe this sort of thing is normal…

I wish YOU the best.

Rob

Put the cigs in H’s golf bag…He’ll ask…

<small>[ June 17, 2004, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: robby13 ]</small>

i know everything pep says is right on the money. what am i supposed to say in response? i am certainly not going to defend my actions. they were worse than stupid. they are totally destructive.

rob, how did you end up feeling better at the end of the hour??

fyi: i already threw the pack away.

i am getting overwhelmed with the amount of different books i could be reading....

lisa, the one you mentioned is on the list. it was not in the store i went to last week. i had sexual detours in my hands but the line was long and i was late for my IC appt so i had to leave it there.

before i started with this IC, i tried to find a christian C by looking on internet in my area. none that i found were in my insurance plan.

I have found the email of a pastor that used to be at our church. he happens to be at a church near my job now. i respect him very much. he buried our daughter with us, and then baptized our son 4yrs later right before leaving our church. (he actually was the assit pastor when our oldest daughter was baptized too). I am trying to compose a note to him seeking help, either directly from him or via a recommendation. when he was at our church as asst pastor he did counsoling, not sure if he does now because he is main pastor.

Originally posted by FinallyLearning:
i am certainly not going to defend my actions. they were worse than stupid. they are totally destructive.

Believe me FL ... I don't care at all about your past mistakes ...

I am right here with you today, in the moment...

I am not expecting or waiting for ANY defense from you .... I could care less.

I DO await a plan of action from you ... a plan that is clear and do-able and headed "home"...

Your're lost, go back home. Home being .... who you really are. This is not you.

Pep

FL,

You need a H who is trying to make things better with you.

Ask him if he wants a wife or a housekeeper. If he says he wants a wife, tell him he needs to be a husband.

He has to get off his lazy [censored] and get a job. He has to treat you with love and respect. He has to be an active father to his children.

In other words, he has to shape up, or ship out! Take one of his golf clubs and threaten to give it to him where the sun doesn't shine. He is not worth your angush.

Sorry ladies. I'm a retired Army First Sergeant and have seen enough of these "men." They treat their wives like dirt, then expect their wives to treat them like kings. When their wives turn to someone else, they act surprised. I have 2x4s, baseball bats, crickit(sp?) bats, etc. for these guys.

I would vent more, but I've got to go. Maybe more later this evening.

rag,

i appreciate your post but at the same time i'm not looking to have H be bashed here.

regarding the job situation, i don't know what to conclude, it's not like he NEVER has any photo jobs but he certainly does not go looking to get more jobs, whatever jobs he gets, based on past clients, he gets and that is enough for him, he does not seem to have any motivation to do more. I'm not sure if that is because he just does not need to based on my salary or because he just does not want to or if he is intimidated, i just don't know. it's not like he makes NO contribution to the household accounts, he takes a "salary" 2-4 times a year and that $$ goes straight into savings and used when needed, like for new car, or real estate taxes or something. all my money goes into checking for general bills, once in a while we get excess in checking and then i transfer some of that to savings too.

the stmt about "They treat their wives like dirt, then expect their wives to treat them like kings." was hard to read. although i don't think he has ever treated me like someone he treasures, i don't think he treats me like dirt. but he sure DOES have the attitude that I should treat him like the king, he has many many many times talked about how he feels as the man/father, he deserves more respect. for example, he should not have to go to the kids and give them a good night kiss, they should come to him. i very much disagree with that stmt. and i think he has (slightly) softened on that one cuz i have told him my views on that attitude.

however, the bottomline is I allowed our relationship to be what it was for many years. I did not handle the conflict appropriately. i used to always think he was passive agressive but i realize my cheating on him is about as passive agressive as it comes. And I need to cut that out!!!

i've been thinking a lot about why i finally broke down and called OM. why my daughters call to me put me over the edge to call OM and i finally figured out why.

I am ANGRY. I am angry that i cannot be with my kids. I am ANGRY that our household is a mess, and i don't mean just the house being a mess, although that is part of it, i mean the kids have a parent home but they get stuck fending for themselves so much and they are cranky, and my dauther is even more cranky than normal this summer cuz she is a bit uptight about HS. and i love my kids to death and i want them to be HAPPY!!!! and i would love to be the one home with them. but if i can't i should at least feel comfortable that my H is helping them have a happy childhood.

i cannot work full time (especially at this company) AND run the household. And i feel like a failure and i am angry that i feel like a failure because there are 2 of us here. and if he does not want to be a stay home parent and do all that it takes to be a good stay home parent he should work it out so i can, but i can't do both!!!

and the worst part about it is I don't know what to do about it i can't force him to make more money so my job is manditory. and i cant force him to be a better stay home dad cuz that just puts more stress on our relationship.

but i certainly CANNOT continue to deal with it the way i have been dealing with it. no matter what is going on around me, i have to conduct myself in an appropriate loving way.

FL,

Hang in there. You are a thoughtful person with a good spirit--I know you can change things for the better for yourself. It might not be tomorrow or next week, but you can do it.

I'm new this site (see "is this common" from earlier today).

I've skimmed through your notes and the comments about the kids caught my eye. I'm a full time working mom and the primary bread winner. My husband's a good dad...but not necessarily proactive in getting things done. Anyhow, the kids will follow the parents lead. If they think you feel guilty...they'll play on it. Especially a hormonal 14 year old. She needs to understand that as a responsible adult...you working comes w/ the territory of maintaining your household. My kids (11/10 b/g) would comment when they were smaller "why do you have to travel" (I periodically travel for business). My response was "do you like your bed, your clothes, food, etc.". They got the hint and securely recognize it's part of being a family w/ responsibilities. It would help if your H would take ownership of being a stay at home dad.

Try to be true to your spouse. Having been on the receiving end...you hurt so much more than your spouse....yourself, kids, etc.

FL...The author has a website, guyfinley.com, you can order the book from there. If I hadn't been so down like you are and had the exact same thoughts I wouldn't be pushing this so much!! I don't pretend to have all the answers but I promise you this book will reveal things to you about yourself that you didn't even know was there.

I hope that you are feeling better tonight. I totally understand about the crazy thoughts of wanting to go back to OM just to be comforted but remember, that's a lot of what the problem is with us now!! There's no going back, only forward.

Hi FL...I'm still following your posts and am sorry to see you caved and called the OM...not surprised, but sorry that your H isn't doing what is needed to be sure that you have no NEED for the OM...I feel so bad for you because I see how much you want your marriage..and I read how your H seems to be taking advantage of your guilt..sorry if that sounds like I'm bashing H, I'm not...but as you know, I've known that if he kept up his 'indifference?' to meeting your needs, that it would come to you contacting the OM....I've been there, done that myself...luckily even without my H knowing about the A, he has put effort towards making our M better..and it's worked..

I don't know what you should do, really..but I do know that contacting the OM is like the worse thing at this point..PS: if you want to play backgammon, you can do it on MSN without making a screen name, or you can email me your addy and I'll play with ya.. ;0)

I'm just wondering just how long everyone who thinks you should 'stick it out' thinks you should wait to share in a real marriage, with real give and take...I'm seriously curious...I've said it before...when a BS comes here hoping to save their marriage, they are told to plan A their butts off...you come here with a H who is doing the Anti-plan A and are told to 'live with it'...I just don't get it....

Personally, I think it's time for a 'come to Jesus talk' with H...you made a mistake, you admitted it, and have done your best to make things right...God has forgiven you if you have really, truly asked for it....time for H to step up and either forgive or move on...sorry, but that's just MHO....Hang in girl...and DON"T CALL THAT MAN... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

slight thread-jack...To all the BS's...how long do you think your WH or WW would have stayed away from the OM/OW if you would have treated them the way FL's H is treating her??

FL,

I'm back from my class and I am sorry to read you are hurt at my "husband bashing." I am used to taking underperforming men, locking their heals together, and giving them a verbal 2x4 to wake them up and help them perform properly.

When I read about his not helping you, etc., I get upset. I guess it is a good thing none of my SILs are like that.

Really, for your and your children's sake, you have to let him know the kids need a fulltime mother. Teenagers really need someone around they can run to, if needed. Even if not needed, they need the reassurance that someone is there.

That means your husband has to get a fulltime job to provide for all of you. When he comes home, he should help you also. That way, you both may get some time to play golf together. You have to become his first priority, the children his second priority.

To me, that is being a man. If lifestyle has to be lowered some, then so be it. The family comes first, not his ego or golf game. You cannot do it all by yourself. You know that. If he is unwilling to do his share as a man, .... (Insert your own ending.)

I'm never saying your A was OK. We all know it was wrong. However, I can see how you were backed into it.

I think I better end now, or I might write too much.

Be excellent to each other.

Dreamcatcher....

for me, your question is (somewhat) irrelevant... because it is so soon after D-day... thus any weird BS obnoxious reacive behavior can be expected. (for up to 6 months)

I think the more significant (and tragic) issue is that FL's H was somewhat of an indifferent husband ~before~ her affair....

I say .... Plan A six months... so FL can get back on HER feet.... Then slam the "come to Jesus" discussion on his golf-playing mug.

Pep

Sorry FL, I didn't read the whole thread before posting...seems like maybe H has made an effort to 'take care of you' a little after you told him how you were feeling...good news!

I'm not sure why you can't talk to him about the fact that you are feeling overwhelmed...being the primary breadwinner of the family etc...perhaps his wanting to feel like the 'king' of the family is to compensate for the reality that he is not the main supporter of it?...interesting...

I understand how you feel when you are/were compelled to call the OM...I truly do, my main concern is that you come to the point where you realize that OM or not, things in your life won't change until you chose to change them...hang in there lady...you'll do fine... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep...actually, 6 months sounds fair to me! I do think it's good for FL to have a 'light at the end of the tunnel' and I'd love to help keep her from contacting the OM again...nothing like that to set ya back to like -3 months in healing ya know?..

Thanks for the response.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Dreamcatacher,

We were both posting together. I feel as you do in your last post. I don't think her husband is worthy of FL, A or no A.

She has to decide that herself. If she wants her M to work, I think she has to let him know what he stands to lose with his actions. He doesn't know how lucky he is.

If my XWW was as good as many of the WWs and FWWs I've read about on this site, I wouldn't be in my second marriage. And XWW wouldn't be alone after her 4th or 5th marriage.

i'm a bit too tired to respond to each of you personally. RAG, i was not hurt by your post, i just didn't want the conversation to go down that path. regardless of his actions or anything else in my life, learning to truely love and freely give of myself is something i have not yet accomplished.

pep, you say 6 months, is that from d-day or from today since i contacted OM yesterday? i did not (and will not) tell H about that so maybe i have not really learned anything here and therefore will never be successful in my attempts to truely be all God calls us to be.

as Pep says, until i can truely and consistently act lovingly towards my H (for say 6 months) without failing, i have no right to talk about his flaws.

i am horribly inconsistent as i battle between trying to just be loving and trying to get what i need in return.

anyway, good night all. i may not be around tommorow. i am planning on secretly going to lake house during work day to get it very clean and decorate for father's day. kids and i made some decorations that i want to have put up as a surprise when we get there. and i hope to get grass cut too so when he pulls up he does not immediately see a yard that needs cutting. my daughter came up with this idea and then we all (son and I) jumped on the concept. we made various small notes that say things like "Dad rules", "we love you Dad", etc. etc. I am going to hang pieces of streamers off the ceiling and put a note at the end of each. pretty cool idea, don't ya think??? daughter gets the credit.

FL..Since I am a BW, I am rather upset with your actions this week!

So you are going to hang cutsie streamers with love notes for your H yet just several days ago you were calling the OM and basically telling him you'll make it FUN for him if you get together. Which I think means, you are offering to give him a BJ!

" I told him all i would want to do is mostly kiss and be held but that i would make it fun for him no matter what. He says i'll want to do more once there but whatever i want is fine."

You are not planning on telling your husband so you are secretly jerking him around again.
You want to keep the "affair door" unlocked and available!

The OM is single yet you are not letting him go on with his life with someone else.

"i asked him what his status was. he told me he was dating someone but had not commited to her, he told me he would love to get together. i told him one thing i never want to be is an OW, i asked him if he would be telling this person he was going to see me again. she was in the picture before, right at the end and knows about me already. but then i know he stopped seeing her. He said he just recently saw her again but he has no commitment to her, but he would not tell her about me."

Once I critisied your husband because he was punishing you for your affair by not kissing you and JL, MelodyLane, and Pep jumped on me and said what a great guy your H was and how hard he tried to save your M for two years while you were secretly having an affair.

Is he the problem or are you? Or are both of you? Maybe he is having a secret affair?

By the way, did OM call you back the next day and did you and he meet?

<small>[ June 18, 2004, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

I am a WS and a newbie so I feel funny about jumping in here. But I have been following these posts. Blessed TIME, you are a little out of line. You are judging FL harshly. It is okay to say what you said, but you could keep the bj comment out.

I had a different take on what FL was doing for Father's Day. It sounded like she was going to make it as special as she could, and she sounded excited. The A is just too fresh, and she is struggling with right choices. I understand! She KNOWS she is wrong, and I hope she doesn't continue to make these choices. But she is here, and she is talking it out.

I felt ashamed when I read about Father's Day. If my H and I are talking, it seeems to be only about the A or everyone's feelings and needs. I was so worn out last night, we probably said 3 sentences. When he went to bed, and I came to tell him goodnight, I touched his arm. He asked me please not to touch him. It sounds like FL is reaching out more than myself. I honestly am having a hard time even wanting to.

I am new, so I don't know as much as you guys. But I believe FL wants to make the right choice, even if she is stumbling. Yes, keep asking her the hard questions. But please don't get degrading.

<small>[ June 18, 2004, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: runawaypot ]</small>

FL -

I guess because I am still so close to my own pain regarding this matter, I do second what Blessed TIME said. Just about word for word. I don't think I would have posted it to you, because I didn't want to hurt your feelings. BUT, isn't that what we are supposed to be doing for each other here? Helping? Opening eyes that are shut? Cyber-slapping the crap out of each other when we are forking off onto a dangerous path?

I am not here to win any popularity contests. I am here, with you on this thread, because over these months I have come to truly care about you, as I have a few of my other MB friends. And on that side of the coin, I feel your pain and I know you are confused. You are lost, and there is no H being your lighthouse.

On the other side of the coin, I am a BS. I was lied to, manipulated, and hurt by the people I had let closest to me in my life (H and "best friend"). And that is what you did to your H the other day. And you have no intention of telling him. And that makes me so sad. It also makes me sad that he is so unplugged from you, he probably won't even notice.

Because I have noticed a slight shift in you since that happened. Very slight, but there nonetheless. It reminded me of when Pep said that this is not you. It's not.

I just wonder how sad you would be for me, how much you would be able to feel my pain and be upset, if I came on here and told everyone that my H had contacted the HW, and "just wanted to kiss and be held, and that he would please her."

Please look outside of yourself for a moment.

As I was driving around last night, thinking about you, I wondered if you were just so impatient for SOMETHING to happen, either way, that you created it. One way or the other, to wake your H up, force him into some type of action. Because you can't stand being where you have been so long now. So unhappy.

I get that. And perhaps after you called OM, you knew that you had made a mistake, and that you don't want to force the sitch in that way. But now maybe you are feeling despair, because if you don't force it, you are still stuck.

I am here to tell you that those are not your only options! Yay! The third option, the one you are having such a hard time seeing, is that YOU control YOU. YOU can start living your best life right now, with or without your H. Apparently, your H needs to see an example of what is expected of him. Be that example.

Is it easy? Heck no. But it sounds to me that you aren't afraid of a little hard work.

This is what I did, and my H came home to me. Even though your H is not wayward, he needs to come home to you. Which, of course means as Pep said that YOU have to be home, as well. In your head and heart. Not goofing around like a crazy teenager. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Anyway, the way I looked at it, H could either get on the SS train (All 'Board!) and head out of the station with us (kids and dog and chinchilla and all) for fun and adventures, or he could be left behind. And that man came running!

I have noticed more and more lately, though, that I am letting the SS train fall into disrepair. I am going to sit down again and re-do my priority list (little different now that H is home!), and make up a new plan of action to accomodate those priorities. It is not a destination (darnet) but a journey (woohooo!).

So, my very best cyber-slap to you (haven't given out one of those since LordsLady was in her first day of her third Plan B <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), and my very best ideas for you to mull over in your brain. And please know that I do care about you. I only slap the ones I love. The others I just shake my head. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Lots of love and a big HUG!

SS