Spider Slayer,

I really liked your post. Especially about it being a journey and not a destination. I am still amazed how willing some BSs are to help. It says a lot about your character and patience.

Anyway, the way I looked at it, H could either get on the SS train (All 'Board!) and head out of the station with us (kids and dog and chinchilla and all) for fun and adventures, or he could be left behind. And that man came running!

OH Spider woman ...

THIS is IT. YOU are elected. I voted and it is unilaterally unanimous .... one to nuthin'... go see thread to you!

P

Runawaypot -

Before my H's A, I belonged to the "If my H ever did that to me (had an A), I'd be outta here!"

Now look at me. Interesting what happens when you are forced to grow up and take an objective look at what you want in your life. Taking everything into consideration - not just the ego.

A marriage is so powerful and profound. All effort should be made to save it. No stone should be left unturned.

It is so easy to let the ego take over. To become perpetrator/victim. That is not how I choose to live in my M. My M wouldn't survive if I did that.

Does that mean I never fall into that role? Nope. I do. Then our MC tells me to snap out of it if I don't want a D. Because if I get into that habbit, a D is sure to follow. People cannot live under constant guilt and punishment. We all need love and caring and compassion.

And good friends to call us on our own behavior.

SS

FL, it takes a lot of courage to face unpleasant truths. I admire you for your willingness to do that. How's the IC hunt going?

SS,

Coming from the BS side, what could your husband have done during the "fog" that would have meant the most to you? I know there are many answers, but I am honestly having a hard time even being in his presence(he is so hurt, he has a lot to say and ask still). I tend to retreat and I am trying to get my head on straight. I need to overcome massive amounts of selfishness right now.
By that I mean I just don't feel "up" to caring care of all his needs. I can barely take care of house and kids. It is getting better every day. I am embarrassed how pitiful.

Anyway, little things that would have helped you during that time? Thanks.

FL,

I admire you greatly! Now wait. I know you have to stop it with even day dreaming about the OM, but you know how to show love to that H of yours!

this has to be quick cuz my daughter is waiting.

blessed time, yes you hit the nail on the head. i wanted to just be held, i offered a bj in return. pretty pathetic. yes he called, i did not answer, there has been no contact since. i'm going to assume he will be able to figure out that i must of had a bad day and contacted him but will not go thru with seeing him, it does not seem like a good idea to actually tell him directly. as for holding OM back and letting him go on with his life, that is not the case at all, nor has it ever been the case. for that to be the case, he and i would of had true emotions for each other and we never did. the only reason he is not seriously dating anyone is because there is no one he knows that he wants to date. i can't say for a fact that the person he is seeing knows that the sex is only casual but that is not my concern. bottomline, I am not going to see him. i had a bad day, i made a bad choice to make contact, i am moving on.

as for the father's day stuff, yes, i am (actually i did this morning, my daugther got up at 6:30am with me and helped) decorating the lake house with streamers that have notes on each one. the kids and i made the notes up last night. BT, i know my actions last week were inconsistent but I AM TRYING to do good things. I also mowed the lawn for him so when we pull up he will not have to immediately see something he would normally have to take care of (actually, my son is starting to own that job but still, H has mentioned how much of a drag it is to pull up to an overgrown yard.

To all BS, i understand my actions want to make you slap me silly. that is why i posted them here!!! to get that extra help to STOP myself.

i don't want to jerk my H around. I just want to be happy. i know my logic is messed up. that won't make me ultimately happy.

i am excited about this weekend. i hope my H feels special and loved. it felt nice to do all that for him. my biggest thing that i have to do now is make sure i don't expect a big reaction from him. I hope he appreciates the effort, i hope it is effective. but no matter what his response, i need to just be happy about my actions and what i (and daugheter) did this morning was good.

as for the train analogy. i fear my H won't care to jump aboard. so that leaves me where i was for so many years, a "single" mom that adores her kids, loves to have fun with them but is lonley to have a person next to me enjoying it but unable to find someone new to because i am married. He wont jump on the train SS, he will do his thing, he does not mind being alone. but i guess for me, i want my kids to have a 2 parent family environment anyway, so i will wait till they grow up. if nothing ever changes between the two of us, i will divorce then. but until then, i WILL stay faithful. i WILL post here and get as many 2x4s as it takes.

as for IC, i did not make progress on that, i never sent the email to that one pastor, but i will figure something out next week. thanks for asking, (please keep on me if you would, i know i need it)

finale note to lisa. i will get to bookstore and get that book you mention too. no later than tues, and i'll let you know.

don't know if i missed anything but my fingers are now tired from typing so FAST!!!!!

have a nice weekend everyone and for all the dads out there HAPPY FATHER's DAY!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I admire you greatly! Now wait. I know you have to stop it with even day dreaming about the OM, but you know how to show love to that H of yours!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">runaway pot, i just had to add a special thanks for the above stmt. i know i screw up sometimes (and A LOT during the A) but i really do think i do A LOT of good stuff too. even all during the A, i tried to do special things for him, they just never mattered to him and that made me more adimate that the A was ok. screwed up logic, i know!!!

BT (and other BSs) i suppose that means nothing to you, i don't know what to say to that. i'm sorry.

DearFinallyLearning,

Just caught your post before you go off for the weekend! Hope that you will be ok and it will be the start of something positive beween you both.

Really admire your thoughtfulness in doing this. Especially 'reaching out' to H when you are still struggling and trying to make it work.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Kas

i wanted to just be held, i offered a bj in return.

Think about your mouth and what it represents to your husband...

I know this is a very tender area for you to discuss ....

Early in recovery I had visions of Mr. Pep's lips on her "~lips~" .... and it made it DAMN hard to enjoy kissing him .If you want your lips to be safe for kissing your spouse, don't offer them up to OM as payment for hugging...

Your body, your lips, belong at home .... kissing your children and your husband.

Pep

FL -

It makes my heart sink that you don't think H will hop on board your train. Is it possible that for the years you are speaking of, while having your A, you were not creating an atmosphere that he could really buy into? I'm not making this all your responsibility. But perhaps your train wasn't all that back then.

I know that my H was less than there during his A. He was not someone I particularly enjoyed being around. He was only about 1/8 of the way with me.

I did not live your life, I do not know. I am merely suggesting that this time around, you have more power to create something extraordinary. Everybody wants to be apart of something extraordinary. Do not give up hope about your H or your M. Without hope, there is no chance of happiness.

You must believe it can happen, for it to have a chance of happening. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You did create a wonderful day for your H. I truly hope he realizes how much thought you put into everything - especially the grass. Don't sons just rock for lawn mowing??? My H has our boys do it each week.

My boys and I just got back from getting a picture holder for H's desk (with our new Disney photoes in it!), bacon from the butcher for breakfast on Sunday (it's the BEST!), and a box of Hershey's chocolates (H's favorite!).

I am excited for Sunday. Have a great weekend everyone!

SS

I've been looking for some words of wisdom for 'Finally Learning' from 'Just Learning' on this thread.

Where are you JL and your great advice?

Love, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

FL, I think when you tell us that you called the OM and offered him BJ's and passionage hugs and kisses, after all this time of No Contact, it SCARES some of us, (like myself) that our spouses might and could be doing the same thing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Just bringing this thread back to page one.

Still haven't heard from JL.
I know he will be disappointed that you called the OM and offered him a BJ for a hug!
JL always defended your H as really trying to save the M but is he really? Are you?

Sincerely,
Julie

How were things this week-end FL.
I hope they were as nice as you had hoped for. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

i wanted to post a quick hi. you all are wonderul for supporting me so much, i do very much appreciate it.

the weekend went well. H was very surprised on friday and touched. there were about 25 papers hanging down with small (one sentence) msgs on them, from silly to sweet. he read them slowly thru out the weekend. he was also very touched by the lawn being done.

there is more to the story. it was a mix between good and bad. i think i learned a little bit more about myself and a trigger to watch out for in the future.

i'll post (and read) more later, i took day off and kids and i are heading downtown to the planitarium <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (H is golfing, one more round on wed and then he swears he will be back to golfing just once a week).

i know you all post to me because you care and i really appreciate that. i hope you all had good weekends.

Dear FinallyLearning,

Great you are back! Glad weekend went reasonably well and your H was touched by the things you had done in preparation.

Hope you had a good day with kids.

Look forward to hearing more about how you got on and what you learned about yourself over the weekend.

Please don't be upset if I ask you this, but how are you coping after your last contact with OM??

Take care

Kas

BT,

FL has not heard from me on this thread for two reasons. I think Pep is doing a great job and there really is nothing I could offer to FL that Pep is not doing.

The second reason is that I do NOT have any good advice for FL right now. I am disappoint about her contacting OM. It starts her withdrawal clock all over. I am more disappointed in her not telling her H.

My biggest problem is that NEITHER of them seem that interested in rebuilding their marriage.

FL, you have to make some decisions concerning your marriage and the persistence of OM in your thoughts. Further, if you want your H to truely value you, you need to be honest with him.

I sense deep resentment not only about your job, but the fact that he seems to be paying even less attention to you and the family. That may be true, but the problem is that you have not been honest with him about your feelings concerning his golf and how much time it takes away from the family and yes even his work.

Honesty, or the lack of it while your H tried is part of the problem, the existence of the OM in your life is another part of the problem, and finally resentment is a huge problem. I will repost my favorite saying to you. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Resentment is like taking poison, and waiting for the other person to die. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So how are you feeling these days FL, sort of sick of this, sort of weak, is the poison finally really getting to you? I think so.

My only recommendation is to lance the boil that is your marriage and your resentment, and be honest with your H. If you love him tell him so. If you feel you must change jobs, tell him so. If you need more support from him, tell him so. If he won't do your bidding on this, negotiate with him.

It is time you two fish or cut bait, and honesty is the start of that process. You may yet get your wish FL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> OM may be the only man in your life. But, somehow I don't think it will be what you think, it usually not what people think.

I really don't have a lot to say, because FL is not really asking for advice, she is just sort of getting it in response to her posts. Get a plan FL, and see if you and H can design it and make it work.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Dear Just Learning.
As usual, a really GOOD COMMON SENSE MESSAGE for Finally Learning.

From what I have read about how she feels for the OM...she does NOT love him or want him as her mate....she just wants him for someone to make her feel sexually desired...someone that makes her problems appear to go away for the little time she is with him or talking with him or e-mailing him.
Someone to make her feel like a special woman to a man other than her H.
(That about right FL?)

And then WHAM, the problems and reality and the GUILT of secret meetings or conversations, are back bigger than before.
And she is back feeling this lack of self-esteem and blaming her H's attitude or whatever he does or doesn't do to fill her EN...She uses this as her reasons for her weakness for contacting the OM.
What a deal! (Fl, that is just my take on it.)

Sincerely, Julie

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">there is more to the story. it was a mix between good and bad. i think i learned a little bit more about myself and a trigger to watch out for in the future.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Looking at things head on and being straight about what you see seems like a good way to begin putting the big picture together. A good IC could make a big difference, FL especially since you're wanting to change some long-standing patterns of behavior and an addiction. Time, patience, and support might just make all the difference in the world. Also, was it somebody around here who mentioned the instructions they give on airplanes prior to take off? Secure your own oxygen mask before attempting to assist those in the seats around you. Take care.

JL, i figured you were not posting at all for that exact reason. there really is not much different you can say to me.

my response to you is the same too, i cannot force him to get a job. yes, i am at times resentful that I am so stuck at that job, that i may never be allowed to persue my dream of teaching. but i have kids to provide for and i have to do what i have to do, you told me that yourself once. that is just what grownups do for their children. I have been trying very hard to not hate it so much anymore. when people ask me about my job lately (like at the party we were at sat night) instead of saying how difficult the environment is there and how i wish they would just fire me already, i say, rather matter of factly, not much has changed there, more layoffs coming, morale still low but i figure i am still getting a good paycheck and i am trying not to stress about it so much. and that is the truth. whenever i start to think about how i don't like the job, i force myself to look at the positives, it IS a good paying job, it can be very flexible at times (like taking today off). the situation COULD be a whole lot worse. my job is mine and I am choosing to stay because of what it allows me to provide for my family. i still wish it was not all up to me but there really is nothing i can do about that. "God give me strength to accept the things i cannot change, courage to change the things i can and wisdom to know the difference". i accept this is one thing i just have to accept.

my productivity is still not great at work but it is improving.

contacting OM did not put me back at all. which speaks very loudly as to the lack of emotions there. whether it was that the contact was just too small or that i see him and the entire scenerio with just too much clearity now to be able to gain anything from any of it any more. the contact was insignificant and only strengthens my thought that i want nothing to do with being the way i was when i was in the A. and i really have you all here to thank for helping me get enough away from the situation to see that.

maybe what SS mentioned is closest to the truth. i just want something to change!!! those actions did not show it, but i really don't want to force it to change for the worse.

so yeah, i could tell H i talked to OM on phone. what good would it really do? absolutely none. i am trying to honestly show him my insides though.

one of the things that happened over the weekend, on sat morning was me asking H how much time he felt he would need before he would be able to decide what he wants, to work on the marriage or to split, cuz right now, he is not really doing anything, at least not that i can see, he is not reading, although he has stated a few times he would, he is certainly not interested in MC, he is not reading journal entries of mine which are there, he is not open to seeing anything but his hurt and his right to be hurt and keep us exactly where we are for as long as he wants. he didn't want to give me any answer. i said it would help me to keep patient, so then he popped out with 1 yr. although he restated he makes no promises, he just does not know and i have to deal with that it is not his responsibilty to help me cope.

i am interested in re-building my M. i may not always demonstrate the strength needed.

or maybe you are right, maybe i am not willing enough. you make it sound so simple, "just tell him you want to change jobs" and then negotiate... i would really like to see you accomplish this if you were in my shoes.

"honesty of lack of it while your H tried"... how about his lack of trying while i tried for so many years prior to that while i was very much in the marriage? i know... i am here, he is not.

i talked about how he would not let go while i was in A, that is true, but it's not like i was 100% gone on him either. i acknowledge i could not really be effective given my contradictory actions. but i was in no way 100% gone. i still did very nice things for him. point in case. for xmas in 2002, i got him a home foot spa, made up a package of lotions and other foot stuff and then made on the computer a book of coupons, 12 of them, with experation dates for each month, each one good for a foot massage with the works. now you tell me, how many wives do you know that does that sort of thing??? but for him, it meant nothing. and i don't get that. that is not the only example.

regarding during what period of time i was talking about when i said H would not do stuff with me and kids, this would of been long before i started A in 2001, long before i gave up. the amount of trips to the zoo, park, mini golf, downtown, rollerskating or where ever while he stayed on couch to nap or watch tv (mostly golf) or go play golf cannot even be counted.

nor could i count the amount of times he told me it was not necessary for a H/W to want to do the same activities in order to be happily married. ok, i can go along with not having to do everything together, but i DO believe spouses should stretch and do things just cuz the other wants to. not only did he not want to do what i enjoyed, he never really pulled me into what he enjoys (like golf). i took golf lessons even, so i could have a clue and then maybe play with him. he did not care. he certainly did not encourage the idea.

but that was all then, this is now.

i have to work hard on ONLY seeing H as he was just prior to when i confessed. because that is the only point in time during our relationship that we were close to getting things right. when both of us talk about how things were at the beginning, both MCs asked us go back in time and think back to when relationship began and NEITHER of us had many positives to say. H was critical of me from the onset. I was not what he wished i would be. Both MCs asked us, very seriously, why did you two get married??? one MC told me straight out, he didn't think H loved me. it is hard to let that all go, but i am trying!!!

i cant change the past JL.

"get a plan" HOW????? it sounds wonderful JL, but HOW? and now i suppose you will not respond to me because we have gotten to this point before on other posts and you vanish. i don't understand!

i didn't speak up enough early on in the marriage when this stuff was getting to me. OK, i get that, i own that, i really do. i want to do better now. but i can't ask for anything now, i am sub-level to him. i have no rights in his eyes.

he told me sat that the one thing that got him to hold on to me during all that time i wanted out was cuz he finally believed that nothing happened between jim and i way back in 1988 (and nothting had happened back then), but he had to take 13 years to believe me??? and the threat that i was leaving. but he says, now he no longer has that fact to hold on to, i have not be faithful.

so all i can really do is follow what roman tells me, which is to lean more and more on God, and as Pep says, Plan A H like crazy and hope.

yes i am feeling sick of it all JL, you say i am taking the poison myself, maybe you are right. i really don't know what you think i can do better. i am doing the best i can!!!! I am human too. ok, i do know what i can do better, i can stop banging my head on the wall by contacting OM. it is the second time since i confessed. i know. that makes me sick/disgusted with myself too.

this post is all over the place. guess that tells you how i am coping <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> From what I have read about how she feels for the OM...she does NOT love him or want him as her mate....she just wants him for someone to make her feel sexually desired...someone that makes her problems appear to go away for the little time she is with him or talking with him or e-mailing him.
Someone to make her feel like a special woman to a man other than her H.
(That about right FL?)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that is very correct.

but i don't think the second thought is... i don't think i am using H's actions/inactions to justify anything. maybe i better think about that one more before answering that too quickly...

de novo, i GOOD IC that is what i really have to find. i'm so cautious of those right now, not having any good experiences with that yet. but i should not give up on the concept that if i did find a good IC, it would help immensly. (do you think it is more of a matter of me being a bad client than them being bad ICs?? i do wonder about that)

FL,

I my opinion what you could do is get a plan. I stated that before, but perhaps I need to walk you through this. I presumed given the nature of your work it would be obvious, well obvious what I meant. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But, I was wrong, and I apologize to you for not spelling out what I meant.

So here goes.

1. Let's take this from a very selfish point of view. What would be a good or perfect world to you?

2. How would you go about achieving this world?

3. In the process how would you deal with your children's requirements?

4. What time frame would you like to do this?

5. Do you need help from anyone to acheive these goals? If so who, and how much?

6. If your H decided not to join you on your adventure of life, would it really bother you? If so why?

7. If he would not join you, what are your options?

8. How will you test and evalutate these options?

9. How much money would you need to live if you quit your job and took up teaching?

10. Do you need your H's contributions or are they just icing on the cake?

11. Could you downsize and still enjoy life? If so how would you do that? What would have to happen? Do you need H's help to make these decisions or take action?

12. Do you love your H? If so why?

Start with these questions and add more as you go along. Then figure out what your goal is and using the information from these questions, talking with your H, and talking with your children, make your plan. Then begin to put it in place.

FL, you are a very capable woman. You are also a very down woman, even the affair did not really help you did it?? You need to evaluate your perspectives on life, your family, and yes your job. I would say you are working on the job part of it and hopefully you will become more comfortable.

Finally, just a comment, was the gift of the footbaths something he wanted? Did it meet a need of his, or was it something you would have enjoyed? I ask this not to get on you, but for you to really think about the needs issue. Your H is not you, he see things differently, and he reacts differently.

Personally, I think he is being a jerk, with the comment taking a year to decide if he wants to WORK on the marriage. I am sympathetic to his efforts while you were in the A, and I know you were NOt nearly as kind to him as you think, especially given the two year time span, but I don't care much for his behavior since D-day.

However he is not here to get the old 2x4, so he skates. But, you need to really stop and evaluate things, and then make plans accordingly, and this includes time tables.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL