<small>[ July 28, 2004, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

Good morning BV and others!

I just wrote a post, but was kicked off. Argh.

will try to make it short?

I wanted to comment on your cult analogy. Hope it is not too detailed.

When my xOM first made his physical move, I turned him down. I even tried to tell him there were plenty of other people he could go to that would be willing. Could he please leave me alone?

He gave me a bunch of reasons why he didn't want them. He wanted me. BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

Then when I left he said, "Maybe you will rethink your decision about us." He was not used to being turned down, I think.

I kept training with him and I was already emotionally attatched. I know, I know. The second time he tried, it was similar. I kept telling him why it was wrong, etc. He just would smile and act like I was being silly.

I finally gave in. The first time I allowed myself to get a little physical, then said no. No need to give gory details, but I hated feeling like he was disappointed with me. Yuck. I followed through.

After the first three times, he did not have to pursue me anymore. I pursued him. How gross is that? I actually don't get it. Anyway, your cult remark made me think of this. Yuck, yuck.


JL,

My H has not been reading lately. He has decided to take a break. But we did read your posts to BV and FL last night.

You are truthful and to the point. It was strange. I told my H how my brain agreed with you, but I was having a hard time really believing some of what you said. I could have written something similar(not eloquently) before the A. It scared me. My reaction. It doesn't mean I have not taken to heart what you wrote. I just can't believe that it is not so clear to me as it would have been before.

Thank you for your honesty and lack of glossing over the facts.

Pam

<small>[ June 22, 2004, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: runawaypot ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by chackler:
<strong> Unfortunately I have headaches every day, just some days are worse than others. I have been to every doctor under the sun and nothing works. Tried accupuncture, massage therapy, chiropractic and nadda. It's cool though, like I said, some days are better than others. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This site has a specialist list by zip code.

educational site for headaches

Take care.

Pep

Give me P, give me an E, give me a P,

give me a.....well you get it.


Love you Pepperband!

Pam

<small>[ June 22, 2004, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: runawaypot ]</small>

Glad to see everyone is feeling good today. Stick with the MB program, and things will get better and better.

Originally posted by runawaypot:


"Love you Pepperband"

I'm a married woman ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ June 22, 2004, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

OK Pep you and RAP behave yourselves. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BV,

First, before I answer you post, let me offer some advice that actually might be useful. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Write your post in Word, or WordPerfect, or Notebook, anything on your computer. When it is finished, cut and paste into the response. That way you never lose the post AND even things such as spelling can be fixed.

You will note that I do not follow my own advice and that is evident by the spelling errors and missing verbs in my "deathless" prose. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I just type fast and hope for the best.

BV, it is clear your H has helped you a great deal. It is clear he sees the situation pretty clearly, and yes you have responsibility for your actions. However, you must recognize your vulnerability in the hands of a pro and you were in the hands of a pro. You had little chance to avoid this, unless you had done one thing. You had been "radically honest" with your H and you two had used the POJA. If you had done this your H could have saved you.

The lesson from your adventure is that you two are a team, and if you two work together, trust one another, and love one another, you can protect one another from these types of things. It really is that simple. Everyone is weakened at some point and that is where the strength of the spouse comes in. I once read a quote from someone that had been married a long time. They were asked how they did it, and the answer was: "We never fell out of love at the same time."

Interesting comment isn't it? But think about your wedding vows. Those vows specifically recognize that marriages go through many things, sickness and health, richer or poorer, for better or worse. I like many probably did NOT understand why those vows really existed. They are saying it is known that life and marriage have cycles and we vow to deal with them and continue to love our spouse.

BV, there is something you need to really stop and think about. You are married to a man that has stood by you through all of this. You are married to a man that is in need of your help. He is being strong for you, but he is hurt. He needs your forgiveness, your love, and your help.

You can continue to think about OM and what might have been (what might have been is that you ended up with him and he would have cheated on you just as he has done his W many times.) Or you can help someone in a fair amount of pain. Someone who needs YOU. You are not the victim here, your marriage is, and to face on your marriage, your H is the victim. Work on helping him, and I beleive you will find that your thoughts of OM will fade, your appreciation of your H will grow, and your love for one another will grow.

It is the way these things work BV. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Consider doing this. Your guilt serves no purpose, the A is over. Your remorse should be embraced as a way to motivate you to help your H and rebuild your marriage.

Think about this carefully and I think you will see your way out of this.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Quick question.

You wrote about the ability for some to compartmentalize and walk away from a bad situation when it suits them.

Do men, in general, have this ability?

Is it more so with these people that know the art of manipulation?

I have seen this compartmentalization up close, and I am jealous of it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pam

RAP,

The short answer is yes it is more often seen in men. Actually, most men have seem to have a greater ability to do this than women do. I cannot say if it is natural or societies training of men. It is a huge advantage in many things, but it does lead to what women complain about men most often, "they hide their feelings." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

However, anyone can have the ability, but the truely hard hearted (male or female) can and often do a lot of damage to people with their ability to focus on what THEY want with no apparent concern for the damage they do other people. Want an example?

Look at the people that ran ENRON, or WORLDCOM. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But, I do think that men have a greater ability to do this, but I cannot quote you a study that proves my thoughts. I beleive it is in the training (men don't cry, men don't show emotion, men don't show weakness, men don't...) Now one asks why would people raise their male children like that and why would society allow it?

Well, the answer is much more complex in my mind. Men expect to compete all of their lives, for jobs, promotions, physically, for women, etc. Hence if you have a male child you want them to have the best chance of survival. Let's taking the crying thing. When you cry you are blinded, when you are blinded you are in MORTAL danger, hence men learn not to cry or even admit they are hurt. IF an opponent knows you are hurt, they WILL attack that weak point. A person would be a fool not to, if winning matters at all, and it often does.

So when you are trained this way, you learn to compartmentalize your thoughts.

Finally, I think men learn to compartmentalize much better than women because of the stronger sex drive. Studes have claimed that men think of sex every 10 seconds. You have no idea how distracting that can be, so if we are to get anything accomplished we learn to compartmentalize these thoughts.

Now you don't have to believe a word I have said, but these thoughts are the basis for my believing that men are typically better at compartmentalizing. I have met some women in my life that every bit as good as any man at this, but women tend to be more "integrated" hence feelings often more strongly influence decisions.

So I don't know if I helped but those are my thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Thank you. That does make sense. I covet that ability, and although, I cannot do it now, I would love to learn how to in some small way.(run on sentence..I can hear my English teacher now)

I have 3 wonderful sons. I did not grow up with my brother or dad in the home. Mostly around women. I adore the fun nature of these boys, but have had to look a lot to my H in how to raise them. I am fortunate that they have a very involved dad. I see every day how different they are from females, and I love it.

Don't get me wrong, I just don't know how I would help a daughter right now when my own emotions tend to get the best of me.

Thanks again for your response.

Blessings,
Pam

RAP,

I must tell you this story. All of my children 2 B's and a G played and play sports. I coached them all in basketball at one time or another. One year I coached a bunch of 7th grade boys (son included) in a league. We had to travel to the practice facility. I would load up the van with 6 boys, and then ride in silence to the gym. Oh! there may be a belch, a grunt, perhaps a laugh, but basically silence.

I then coached my daughter at the same age and would load up the van with 6 girls. I would have a headache by the time I got to the gym. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> There were 8 conversations going on amongst 6 girls, and it was bedlem.

One day I realized something, the information transfer with the boys was about the same as it was with the girls. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> The girls talked constantly, and sort of responded to one another, but there was not thought or processing going on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Further, coaching girls is much different than boys and part of this is the compartmentalization you are interested in. The boys may not or do not like each other, but when the whistle blows they play to win. When it is over, they go back to fighting each other after school. They can separate their dislike from one another to accomplish something important and do that.

The girls are so different, if they don't get along socially, then when the whistle blows they will NOT throw the ball to a girl they don't like, and the flat don't care if they lose. It is really so different.

My older two played and are playing college sports now, and the same holds true. My son the oldest played college football,and winning superceded any personal animosity. On my D's college basketball team, the social issues still dominate whether they will play together or not. It is so weird.

Again I think it goes back to women having their feelings integrated into their thought processes while the men do not. Hence men don't talk about feelings, and will only discuss them in dire situations. This board being an example where men do talk about their feelings, but it is also anonomous.

Enjoy your sons, they will drive you crazy with inability or unwillingness to share their thoughts especially as they get older. How was school? "Fine". How did the exam go? "fine" How was the wreck on the highway? "fine" How was practice? "fine" How was your date? "fine"

It can and will drive you nuts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

If you had a D, you know ALL of the school gossip. You would know who likes who, how dates went, how classes are going, how she did on her tests, heck you will know than you want to know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Must go.

JL

JL, can only stay on a minute today and don't want to take this too far off topic but I just sat here and laughed and laughed.

BTW, you might not think the girls were processing the information but I bet you (I know) that they could tell you word for word what everyone said.

I used to say to son "where are you going?" answer "out."

I'd say to daughter "where are you going?" answer "well, we're all going to see such and such and I'll be wearing such and such and so and so'll be wearing such and such and then we're going to wherever and I hope so and so'll be there. He's really cool and then............

Too funny.

BTW I thought the spelling mistakes and missing verbs were old age. Oh well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Jenny

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

Originally posted by Broken Vessell:
"I am sorry and ashamed for what I have done."

Yes, we know. That's why you are going to get better. You are starting to get it... it takes time and there will be setbacks. Just breathe and have faith, and you'll be fine.

These are difficult lessons you are learning. Pain is a pretty impressive teacher, isn't it?

When you get stuck, look inside yourself and try to discover what part of yourself needs a boost. Remember, your H can assist you , but YOU do all the heavy lifting on your personal recovery. The marital recovery is more of a 50/50 deal.

Pep

So ladies - anyone have a recovery plan? I know you are all remorseful. That is okay. But have you thought about how you as an individual, and also as a part of a marriage, are going to recover?

It is not okay to just beat yourself up. That will do nothing.

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

Hi all, I'm cracking up, I just read through most of the thread and found this quite comical.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Finally, I think men learn to compartmentalize much better than women because of the stronger sex drive. Studes have claimed that men think of sex every 10 seconds. You have no idea how distracting that can be, so if we are to get anything accomplished we learn to compartmentalize these thoughts.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL, are you asking us to feel sorry for men because they think of sex every 10 seconds. You poor, poor men. How do you get anything done??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Recovery plan, we my H and I absolutely have one. We have made so many changes. He especially, he spends so much more time with me, we do so many more activities, he talks to me about nothing, all the time!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm in IC. We are reading M books. It is all good.

I'm one of the lucky ladies whom somebody else was talking about, sorry can't remember who.

I told my H about A and he immediately took charge and protected what was his. Within a couple weeks he had completely forgiven me. He has been my rock. He has made it known he is going no where, we will make it.

This man is not only walking beside me through this disaster I have created for us, but he is carrying me proudly on his shoulders screaming, I LOVE THIS WOMAN!!!!!

He amazes me, his strength, and his unconditional love, I am the luckiest woman in the world!!!!!!!

KY

KY,

And are you whispering in his ear: "I love this man"
OR are you telling everyone around how much you love this man and how proud you are of him. I would bet he needs a little public recognition for what you think of him.

KY, I will say there are worse things to be distracted with...work comes to mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But, it is a reason men do compartmentalize.

Finally, KY chocolate is NOT a bandaide, it is an additions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Don't you find it interesting that you never saw this in your H before, or if you saw it it did not register? It seems Harley was on to something when he pointed out that often it is not that someone doesn't love their spouse, but they don't show it in a way that is recognized.

BV: I look forward to seeing your plan.

God Bless,

JL

Hi all!

Sorry I haven’t been around much. My work gets very upset when I am on the internet long. Then I get home in the evenings and by the time I am done with dinner, talking to hubby, and taking care of the dogs it’s time for bed.

I haven’t checked out that headache site yet but I did bookmark it and I am sending the link home to check it out. My headache actually got better later in the morning but I took the rest of the day off just because I felt so hung over from the pain. Blech!!!!

I have been struggling with withdrawals the past three days and I think I have finally figured out the triggers, the biggy being that his birthday is this Saturday. I want to send him a card or call but I won’t. I WON’T I WON’T I WON’T!!! Arrr, I feel like I need to be smacked with a 2x4, regardless of my headaches!!!

I was doing so good these past few weeks but now, I feel as if I am failing. I feel as if I am failing myself, my husband, my marriage.

How long does it take for a person to come out of the fog? I still have a tough time admitting to myself that the OM manipulated me. He was just like RAP’s OM, flattery over a period of time to wear me down. I hate to think it was all a joke to him; that he didn’t care about me. Maybe it’s better that I think that way though, it might help getting over him.

JL I think mentioned a plan. Hubby and I do not have a plan though I am in counseling and we are in marriage counseling. Do you have any suggestions? I must discuss this with the hubby, he’s a very “plan oriented” kind of guy. Very analytical, very data driven, very goal focused.

BV and RAP, I’m glad you are in the same boat as me, it gives me comfort and hope. We three along with Kiwi, KY, and others here on the board are truly blessed to have wonderful husbands.

As Kiwi said, it’s time I say the FWW mantra, “OM is none of my concern.”

Deep breath… Ugh, I started smoking again so the deep breath hurts! I must quit but first, I must get over withdrawals.

BV, I think you mentioned how your husband asks for all the details when you talk to him about your withdrawals. How do you do that? I can’t tell my husband details because I am so afraid of breaking his heart. I mean I tell him I’m dealing with withdrawals but I don’t really tell him about what is going on in my brain. I feel as if I would be taking a knife and stabbing him in the back if I went into detail.

You are right on Pepper, pain is a good teacher. Too good.

JL, Believer, Pepper: You three have been very kind on this thread, very thought provoking and it has helped me and I am sure plenty of others out there. Thank you and please keep those 2x4’s in hand, just in case I fail… I don’t think I will, then again, I never thought in my wildest dreams I would have an affair.

God bless you all…

Hey, did we ever decide on a club name? We should have a club house too!!! I vote that it be in New Zealand so that we can travel there!!! I want to see where the Lord of the Rings was filmed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> KY, I will say there are worse things to be distracted with...work comes to mind. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spoken like a true man JL. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

My H says now, that he always loved me, he just wasn't good at showing it. I always felt love from him, he just LB often.

I do LOVE THIS MAN, I LOVE HIM, I LOVE HIM, I LOVE HIM.

Can I be apart of the club, like Treasure, I'm really good with math. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

KY