<small>[ July 28, 2004, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

CW, I hope you don't mind me putting this here again because for me it was the start of the whole turnaround to my thinking.

This is from Cwmac's thread and from the book he read called "Tempted Woman."

Read this, ladies, and see if it rings any bells with you.

It was the ONE thing that made me realise how "un-unique" my A was.

BTW, CW, if you're reading - you see - you did help me. Just hope this thread doesn't go off on the tangent the original one did. LOL

"From the chapter on the Other Man:

- OM is something close to the opposite of your H.

- Married women usually have affairs with married men because in the beginning they are classified as "safe." "He's married so we can be friends and he won't hit on me."

- The relationship usually develops from a friendship. It develops slowly.

- OM knows how to give compliments

- He makes you feel as though you are sharing something important during your time spent together

- May offer emotional support if marriage troubles are discussed

- OM is good at creating a sense of fun, playfulness, or just an upbeat attitude that may be missing at home.

- He listens w/ empathy & understanding. He's a good communicator. You feel truly heard.

- He encourages you in your goals.

- He is persistent.

- If sex is involved it is usually does not come for three to six months into the relationship.

- For women the emotional bond must come first. They must feel that they love the OM.

What the OM wants:

- They want the A to stay w/in bounds

- They thrive on the diversion, the excitement of the illicit, forbidden sex. the variety. His W may not like to try "new" things.

- Some get relief from home. May be having M issues. May have a W that ignores him for kids, work, etc.

- Able to reveal themselves emotionally.

- Doesn't want the R to get serious!!

- He may say "I love you" but he still isn't committing to anything

- Some men regard an A as an addition to marriage not as possible replacement

- Most men let the married women know about the restrictions of the R. "I'd never divorce my wife because of the kids." That is the number 1 excuse the OM uses

- The woman's emotional investment flatters the OM but causes discomfort

One interesting piece of info. Married women are unlikely to end the undiscovered A. It's usually the OM. That is except for the FWW who stumble into the MB threads!!

Why men react with so much fury;

- a husband feels dishonored

- humiliated in the eyes of "society." Even today we are conditioned to think that a married man is more likely to have an A.

- less likely to be suspicious therefore causes more shock. Because of our conditioning wives tend to watch husbands for signs. Not likely the other way around. Our egos tell us," she'd never cheat on me. I provide for her. I tell her I love her. etc"

- they are frightened. Worried over the future. Don't feel needed.

- Male competition in sex is acute. Has been for eons.

- Emasculated that OM may be better in bed or may have a superior sex organ. You women say that size doesn't matter well even if your telling the truth from your perspective it doesn't matter because size matters to men!"

Jenny

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

BV, I've just posted above you - we were posting at the same time. See if what I've written helps in any way.

Jenny

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 01:34 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

BV,

I'll address you but this is for all of you ladies.

First, a plan should include your H. A true recovery plan should be designed WITH your H so that both of you can execute it, and help one another, and be accountable to one another. That way parts of it like NC are easier, because your spouse can help you.

Issues for reestablishing physical intimacy should be discussed and designed to both meet BS's needs and WS's needs. Sometimes this is a step process, for example WS may not feel intimate, or BS has so many images that he/she cannot really function. A way to deal with the images is to talk about them with the spouse.

Someone mentioned I think it was you BV that you occasionly wish you had not told, but look at all you would have missed. You gave your H an OPPORTUNITY to show you how much he does love you, how you have underestimated his strength and devotion. He took that opportunity and did something with it, something good and powerful.

If you don't talk to your spouses, if you don't make them part of the recovery plan, then you deny them an OPPORTUNITY to shine, and rebuild their self-esteem, and you miss the OPPORTUNITY to see what you failed to see earlier, your spouses love you.

So any plan should NOT be just YOUR plan, it should be OUR plan. Does that make sense. The plan may include and probably should include counseling with a MC or IC. With the exception of BV it probably ought to include a member of the clergy, but someone both are comfortable with.

There will still be misunderstanding, and yes you are still on the rollercoaster, but it will get better.

Finally, tell your H's about your feelings for OM, talk about those feelings and what you are getting out of them, discuss ways your H can help, perhaps just a hug, or holding you, or just listening to you. It will sometimes hurt them, but LADIES your H's are willing to go through pain in hopes that in someway, on someday, you will finally realize who they are and how much they loved you and cared.

I realize that BV and some others really don't understand that yet, and when you do, issues show as initimacy will go away.

I once told Jenny (KiwiJ) that she had some more breakthroughs she need to go through, all of you have many left to get through. You have made some significant ones but there are more. Have patience with yourselves, this takes time, it takes help, and it takes love.

The one thing you all have in common is that you have a spouse that loves you dearly, who has heard things that hurt them to the core, and yet they have seized the OPPORTUNITY to show you what is in their hearts.

I think Jenny can tell you that even as much as a month ago she didnot appreciate her H as much as she does now.

So make your plans, work on your plans, execute your plands WITH your H's, but have patience, have a good heart, and give this time. You all will get there.

God Bless,

JL

Right on the money JL. Remember my bridge and the pylons were going in. Well, the structure is complete now. Traffic is going across.

I feel guilty now. I made a rude remark about your age further up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jenny

<small>[ June 24, 2004, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

Jenny,

Don't worry about it. I am looking forward to reaching 60,just about one year from now. It will represent many milestones in my life and my family. I am looking forward to them. I talk about my age, but frankly it is NOT something I feel bad about.

For one thing I have been the oldest living male in my family since my late 40's. That is scary.

But, more importantly, with age comes my children growing up, moving into their own lives, starting their families, etc. All things I really look forward to. My youngest is only 17 and oldest is just 24. I was a slow learner. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I told you, you would be a huge asset to this site and you have proven me right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I think your H should be proud of you, and surely you do have an H to be proud of.

God Bless,

JL

I have read all 6 pages now-
kiwi suggested on my thread
to jump over here-she was right-
I felt so alone-now I know you
are all going thru what I have
been battling myself last few
days. My thread was re: trust &
BS-I confessed to my H that I tried
to call OM-knowing he would not
pick up-but called anyway. It hurt
him deeply I know-but withdrawal
really sucks right now. NC since 5-7,
my A was so typical-nothing special
or unique about it. The 1 thing I
am grateful for though is that we
live several states away-that makes
seeing him impossible. If I need to
focus on something small that would
be it. I tell myself we were friends
before we were lovers, and I wish I
could go back to the "just friends"
part-that is what I miss the most-
when I acheive something or have a
funny story-it is OM I want to share
it with-because I did for so many
months. It was an addiction-I am
needing my fix by talking to him,
I am so thankful to be here-to know
that I too am a good woman that was
vulnerable & took the wrong path-
thanks ladies for such amazing
insight to feeling empty & lonely,
and not feeling guilty about it-
it just is the process. I too am so
blessed to have an amazing H. he loves
me unconditionally-Thank you God.
hope today is better than yesterday...
pal

PAL, We all go through that point, but I am well over it, when something little happens, I now want to tell my H.

You will get there, continue NC. Don't call him, call Kiwi, here is her #, just kidding. Well, don't call him still, not just kidding about that part. Oh, you know.....

This is a good place where I am at, I call it Marriage, and you have a personal invitation to join me. The weather is great, NO FOG, and the company is even better, your own spouse. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You can do it, we all can, withdrawal - schmall, it just requires more chocolate than the normal crisis. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

KY

<small>[ July 29, 2004, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

Hi all. I have been catching up on all these great posts! Wow! A lot of great stuff to digest here.


BV,
As always, love to hear your thoughts. You are really working on your issues, and I hope you are able to get back into church in such a way that it brings joy and not sadness. Hang in there, I am with you too!


Chackler,

I have been struggling with withdrawals the past three days and I think I have finally figured out the triggers, the biggy being that his birthday is this Saturday. I want to send him a card or call but I won’t. I WON’T I WON’T I WON’T!!! Arrr, I feel like I need to be smacked with a 2x4, regardless of my headaches!!!

I was doing so good these past few weeks but now, I feel as if I am failing. I feel as if I am failing myself, my husband, my marriage.


I can almost say ditto to your whole post. Especially the triggers and withdrawal part. I was doing okay, but the past day or so has been very rough. Even though we are sticking together and admitting our feelings, somehow I feel like an alien that needs to hide so I am not found out to be as grotesque as I feel. Shame over feelings and desire for OM. Shame that I don’t feel that way for H right now. (He is not reading my posts unless I ask him so we can both express what we need to. I don’t want to hurt him.)

I have got to tell you all how funny it has been. We all talk about triggers and going back to Dday. Well, like I have said before(and some of you have to experience every day) I see OM almost on a daily basis. Fortunately, not in person. He lives near me, and kids activities etc. don’t help.

I told my H that it has almost been comical how often I see his truck now. It’s not like we are in a little bitty town. I was at the pool with my boys and friends when I glance up at the street. Literally, glance. There he goes. Then about an hour or so later, I glance up again. Literally, glance. For real! There he goes. (His truck is very distinctive.)

Okay. Then we have a late dinner. I spend maybe 5 to 10 minutes washing dishes at my kitchen window. I glance up. There he goes. Three times in one day, and not trying to see him. My H just started to laugh. It made me crazy. I don’t like how it feels. I get ANGRY. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

JL I think mentioned a plan. Hubby and I do not have a plan though I am in counseling and we are in marriage counseling. Do you have any suggestions? I must discuss this with the hubby, he’s a very “plan oriented” kind of guy. Very analytical, very data driven and goal-focused.

We still need to get our Hs together to analyze some data. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


We definitely need much more time in MC. I also need to get into IC. I need it desperately.

BV, I think you mentioned how your husband asks for all the details when you talk to him about your withdrawals. How do you do that? I can’t tell my husband details because I am so afraid of breaking his heart. I mean I tell him I’m dealing with withdrawals but I don’t really tell him about what is going on in my brain. I feel as if I would be taking a knife and stabbing him in the back if I went into detail.

It’s funny. My best friend in the world, the one I would love to listen to me, is the one I betrayed the worst. How could I possibly share my feelings or thoughts about OM with him? He is a wonderful man. Excellent in so many ways. But I don’t think he could really tolerate that right now. It would hurt too much. And for some reason, I am so disgusted with myself and my feelings for OM, I don’t even feel I can share them here. Not because of you all. You are wonderful. But because they make no sense, and I already know that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

KY,

Your plan sounds like it is working great! Your H is very blessed, and you obviously are! Glad to see hope for the future. Thank you for all your posts. Keep doing it girl…I also need lots of 2x4s as chackler likes to say!

JL,

You have said so much since I last posted. Thanks for your insights.

Finally, I think men learn to compartmentalize much better than women because of the stronger sex drive. Studes have claimed that men think of sex every 10 seconds. You have no idea how distracting that can be, so if we are to get anything accomplished we learn to compartmentalize these thoughts.

Priceless. Also, your comments on boys and girls are so true. Made me crack up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I do not have any girls, but I remember getting in so much trouble because we were giggling so much and making too much noise! Mom could not concentrate to drive!

Kiwi J,

Ouch, ouch, ouch. Your list about the OM was almost word for word. So true. I am going to show the list to my H. I am not making excuses. He just still doesn’t understand how I could have done such a thing. Thanks for the post.

Peaceandlove,

The more the merrier. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now that we have JL to keep us from pouting too much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , we can all vent and still make progress! Just kidding. That comment was directed at me more than anyone else! Oh, and Pepperband can give great wake up calls and wisdom. Give me a P, give me an E, give me a P….

Well, I have something else to say but am afraid to say it. My xOM is very gifted at compartmentalizing. Not to get into the gory details, but I broke things off (halfheartedly) 3 times before I really did it. We were still training together then. I had the smarts to stop that this last time.

I am ashamed to admit he knew I was a Christian. That gets me the most. What a great representative for God I was! Ugh. Each time I would get so tormented that I did this, he would back off. Really. He would go back to training me, and not attempt to be physical again. Then I would just go “to heck with this” and go for him again. Sorry to be so ugly and honest. He did not resist of course. However, poor guy, the third time he did say, “ You need to make your mind up if we are doing this or not.” My H says I must have confused the he** out of him. I know I did. When he was showing slight guilt for how I was feeling (maybe an act, don’t know), he would then say, “I think you are having trouble with this because of your faith”. Again, what a great witness I was.

Anyway, the real break was made in early June. Have not seen him in person again. Even if he still wanted the sex, I don’t think he would want the emotional confusion that came with me again.

This is the hard part. Just a confession. I do not think OM wants me back that way. He did cross all professional boundaries as my trainer to get what he wanted, but he does like to believe he cares more about his professional “duty.”

Okay, I found three phone messages on my cell. Fortunately, I had not heard them. They had been there for a few days. I know he is calling to “close the door” on the training in a way he can feel good about himself with. (I ended training abruptly and he was putting together a notebook with my program etc.) I know this is what he was calling about. He doesn’t want to be involved again, doubtful at least.

But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t mess me up all over again. I don’t know how to handle this. I almost feel like he pities me because I am not strong enough to handle having an A. My brain KNOWS God’s opinion and my H’s opinion are the only ones that matter, but my heart still very much feels like he might be right. I don’t think I need to have an A to be strong. But I still feel like a wimp when I think about it. I am looking to get IC because I believe my self-esteem has affected myself and my marriage for years. I am also reading some great books by Joyce Meyer on self-worth. Getting scriptures past your brain to your heart. She is my hero. &#61514; My H NEEDS a whole wife. Wish I had dealt with this stuff years ago!

Sorry such a long post. Open to opinions and 2x4s.

Thank you for letting me vent! Whew!

Blessings,
Pam

BV,

I like your plan. I am going to work on mine to I have real concrete goals to shoot for. Thanks for the inspiration. I admire what you are doing.

Kiwi J,

I am going to get that book from Cwmac's thread "Tempted Woman." Also a couple others. Thanks.

JL,

I am going to get with my H and try to make a joint plan for our M. I have been avoiding this kind of emotional interaction with him lately. We kind of wore each other out a week ago with a lot of talking, digging, crying, and anger. We might be ready now. Really need help with the physical. It was a problem before for a long time. I don't like that I was so easily attracted to OM and not my H. The MC says it has a lot to do with a woman shutting down under stress, lack of security or whatever. Of course I only saw the OM for short periods of time and did not have to live with him.

Thanks for all your great logical advice. Now I need to follow it. Will let you know what we come up with as a plan.

Pam

my urge to call OM is
always lurking in my
mind. why? am I still
addicted? do I need more
friends? I take classes
online-I think I am home
too much-too much time
to think.......
I am NOT calling...ever.
I am just feeling weak.
I feel like I need some
space from home-I always
get this way when I feel
at odds. I used to work &
be gone so much-my routine
has changed-for the better,
but it is different being
home more. I need to get
out with friends I think.
thanks for listening to me
whine again....
I wish it was wine...too
early-later though! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

peaceandlove,

As you can see in my posts right before BVs last one, I am struggling with some of the same issues you are. We can help you and be an ear when you need one.

About being home, I understand. I have dealt with that. Also, depression can cause some people to become reclusive. It has for me at times. It would do a lot of good to get out and get busy.

I have been extremely thankful the last couple of days. We have gone to the pool with friends frequently. It gives me time to visit and my kids are enjoying themselves. Before then, it has usually been me and my thoughts...on purpose.

Go have some fun. Take care of yourself.

Pam

<small>[ July 29, 2004, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

pam & kas
whew! it is so good to
finally find other WW
to share with. I was at
times feeling the heat
from BS. I feel so alone.
my friend talked to me on
phone this am. I felt so
guilty sharing with her-
her daughter just had a
baby boy & she is ecstatic.
I said that to her-but she
still wants to here me
tell her my thoughts. many
years ago she struggled
with A. She tells me OM
still crosses her mind.
so I guess from that I am
convinced it is something
that is never forgotten-
just dealt with. I dont
drink much-but some days I
feel like I need something
more than my meds to calm
me down. I dont think I am
depressed-since I am on AD?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
We are going to my parents
for dinner tonite-need to
get out of house-
chat soon ladies...
pal

PAL,

There is something you need to understand. Harley pushes for NC EVER, because he knows from experience the memories don't go away, the feelings fade, but they can be rekindled. That is why NC is so important not just for now but forever.

What does this mean? It means that your thoughts and those of the other ladies here are NORMAL. You cannot fight them, you should not fight them, what you need to do is develop your life with your spouse to that you naturally spend more and more time thinking about the spouse and family and not OM.

It is a evolutionary process and it takes time and patience. It is often recommended that the WS talk to the BS about the feelings. All of the WS say "I don't want to hurt BS any more." But actually short term you hurt them more but the thoughts go away faster, so long term you hurt them less.

Why do they go away? Well, as you verbalize your thoughts to the reality that is your spouse, you demystify them, you bring the fantasy that was the A into the real world, and it begins to lose its hold on you. Your spouse can respond, ask questions, support you and you will begin to see your reality rather than the fantasy that is the A.

So don't fight it directly, fight it by developing your life, learning to enjoy it and the people in it. But, will you forget, no. Will there always be something there, sadly,the answer is probably so, but perhaps not. Don't worry about it.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

RAP...this question may have already been asked on your thread. I tried to read it all but it is getting long!! Did you and OM have sex in his car?

Lisa 103

I don't mind answering your question, but am curious why you ask. It is hard to admit what I did and where. I don't think I have ever talked about where the times together took place. What do ya need to know? I could use all the input I can get!Forgive me if it is hard for me to admit how much I let myself get used.

Lisa 103

Also, I saw some of your old posts. You said your OM is a predator and had 4 As besides you and his wife still did not know about any of them. Sounds exactly the same. My xOM has made this a lifestyle, I believe. And he is skilled at it.

If you are willing (don't want to drag you through anything you are done with) I would love to talk more to you about this. It just sounds so similar. And I am sure you know how I feel.

So, in answer to your first question about sex in his car, I was with him in many different places(ashamedly so) but don't think I said much about it here.

Pam