To all of you. I think you can read my WH's story of how he and OW slipped, and find your own story there. Most did not mean for this to happen. But men being men, and women being women, it did happen.

So I hope that you all can forgive yourselves for being human. It happened, and it is over. I just hate for you to be so down on yourselves. You are great women. You are still here posting and working on things. Give yourselves credit.

chackler,

Hang in there. It looks like lots of tough days today.

I don't really have anything to help you, but you are not in this alone!

You have come so far. You can do this.

Big (((((((hug for chackler)))))))

Pam

believer,

I just noticed your comment on anti-depressants.

I have a family history of some serious depression. Relatives, mom, etc. Should have paid more attention to that a couple years back.

I started taking Wellbutrin XL right before H left for 10 months overseas. We both had struggled with the idea of medication, so I really needed them about 2 years ago.

It helped tremendously. That is what has been so scary. I am on the anti-depressant and feel soooooo down. I cannot imagine if I was not taking them. Honestly.

Anyway, I am fallin g asleep as I write. Guess I am still here.

Hmmm...nobody has killed me yet with a gigantic 4x4. At least not yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Pam

There are tons of posts here, and hardly any negative ones. I am still hoping that the administrators will have a forum for WS's.

Night night, sweet dreams.

Good night everyone! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

here are my late night thoughts.
H & I have these great friends.
we have shared so much in the 20
years together. the know of my A.
they have never experienced any
thing like this to know what to
even think-OK, fine. we distance.
she & I still talk-really surface
stuff. her H never calls my H to
ck & chat. so 1 night after her &
I talk, I think about it (my bad
week last) & call back, talk to him,
say I know you are weird about me &
what happened-but why are you not
calling H? yesterday-her & I go for
lunch, I ask, "so does your H hate
me for what I said?" she said he is
expecting apology before he talks to
you again. OH-OK-I need to apologize
for speaking my mind?! this is what
always gets me in trouble, I am
forward speaking-I say what I think.
I was sooo pi$$ed! it is the whole
thing of feeling judged-I have done a
great job of messing myself up-I
certainly dont need by friends doing
it for me! (ventvent)
new issue today-old friend-yes-a guy-
tells me things about OM-really
crappy things about his past with
women-I started crying. I was hurt-
really really hurt-then I just was so
angry with myself for EVER falling for
him. he lied a lot of lies. he talked
a lot of sweet. I dont think I ever
knew the real him-I knew I was always
too good for him-he said it to me
himself. I ask myself now-why, being
a strong woman do I let all these
people dump on me-I thought were my
friends-people I thought cared for me.
I am keeping my H at arms length. I
have not said much to him today.
yesterday after him & I discussing
friend situation we started on each
other-classic. 1 day at a time is
too much at times. I am just in a low
place-thanks for listening and maybe
understanding the late night ramblings
of a woman who now questions every
thing. where did I go so wrong-why did
I let him into my heart-he has ruined
my emotions. I want him to hurt as bad
as I do. I want to tell OMW-how do I
get her cell#? I am calling her.
I will go to bed now...
pal

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 05:42 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

Runawaypot: Just wanted to drop you a quick note on your post. I saw where you saw the OM today (or maybe it was yesterday) AND called your H. THIS IS PROGRESS! I hope you see it, and if you didn't I'm just pointing it out for you.

Just remember, baby steps. Good luck and keep walking through as you guys say <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

KAS: Actions before feelings. It seems so difficult after what you have gone through. Continue to read Dr. Harley's articles here on the website. Remember that he says to spend 15 hours a week (undivided attention) with your spouse. Are you doing that? If not, try to spend more time with him. Think of it not as spending time with your lover or husband, but just a good friend. Talk to him as you would a friend. Don't think of it that you have to wait for feelings of love to come back for him just to spend time with him. It can just be enjoying the simple things in life with him, your garden, etc. Things like that!

God Bless and take care,
RH <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hello everyone. It is 6:30 AM here in California. Does that help you figure out the time difference? It is 9:30AM in New York.

It would be nice if we could all chat together without someone having to get up in the middle of the night (although I know many have sleepless nights).

I think it is great that everyone can post their feelings. That is the way to heal. It does no good to be driven off the board by anyone.

You are all good women. Otherwise you would not be going through all this pain. So pat yourselves on the back. And don't worry what friends or relatives say. They simply don't understand. Until it happens to you, there is just no way to comprehend.

"I want FEELINGS before I do any ACTIONS.. This is a seriously tremendous obstacle for me to overcome and re-adjust in my thinking."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you think about what you said here as a potential guiding principle in your life... where might it lead you if applied to other relationships?

If you said this (feelings before actions) and tried to apply it to ~mothering your children~ .... would it seem reasonable to you?????

Haven't you ever felt NON-loving toward one of your kids.... but behaved lovingly none the less?

Sometimes you can take the guiding principle you've been struggling with, and apply it to a different situation, and then you can check out the validity of the idea.

Pep

<small>[ July 02, 2004, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

"feelings before actions"

apply this to charity work....

??????

apply this to obedience to the Lord...

??????

apply this to respecting your parents...

??????

see.... take the essence what you struggle with and paste it onto other situations.... and ride it out to the conclusion most likely to make your life run smoothly and come up with the desired outcome.

Pep

Hi all. Just a quick note because it is a busy day.

BV,

I feel I need to clarify on my statement about not being "committed" to the A. That wasn't correct, I guess. I was committed because I bulldozed ahead to be with him. I tried to shut down the war within me to be with him. I was just never successful. I kept it up a long time, but the conviction got me. Also, I knew deep down who this man was, and it already was hurting me.


peaceandlove,

You said your xOM said he wasn't good enough for you.

That is part of my problem. Me self-esteem attatched to my OM. I felt approved of when he approved of me.

He is very well-loved and liked. Everyone knows him and he is respected. It is so sad to admit this, but that made me feel like I must be special if he thinks I am.

Now, it is easy to believe that I am nothing because he doesn't value me.

It is not the truth, but the enemy screams it, and I have believed this kind of lie in different ways all my life.

It is also hard because I want to reveal to his W, but because of his "status" just feel like I would get trashed. I don't know if I could take it. He is so skilled, and I know your pain for being "taken" by the OM. Lied, cajoled, stroked, whatever they did to make us believe them was well done. My heart goes out to you.

RH,

Thank you for your post. I also called H because I want him not to worry about the A starting up again. There are so many reasons for it not to, even if I wanted it.

I said last night that I thought my OM saw me. He did. It is kind of funny. He is doing damage control now.

He called me at 7:07a.m. That is when he leaves work. He never called me then. Ever.

He left a message....all sweet of course.

Gag. It all is so clear, but hurts so bad. I know he had to like me some when he was with me, that is just how he is. Emotional. But when I became a "problem" it was easy to move on.

Ouch.

Anyway, I have not told H about this call. He will flip. He will probably go confront him. I just want to ignore it. Change numbers, whatever.


I feel so worthless already that all it would do is embarrass me. OM is not calling to get back with me, he just doesn't want me angry so I tell or something.

If H called him and said something like "Don't ever call her again. I know what you did," I feel like OM would just think "she is really obsessed."

I willnot give him that pleasure, even if I am hurt.

So, I guess I have moved somewhat into anger. I still miss what I "felt" we had, but God is showing me what I need to see to help me move on.

Blessings to all of you,
Pam

To the WWs,

I am struggling mightily right now and I have a question for you all. From the posts that RAP has shared with me, I have gleaned two trends her. The general comment you make about starting your affair goes something like this:

I can now understand how it happened…
It was wrong, but this is how it happened…
I never thought I would do this, but this is how it happened…

So you all seem to feel that what you did was wrong, but you understand how you got there. Then there are a lot of comments about becoming the W your H deserves and they typically go:

I want to, but can’t seem to…
I’m not there yet…
I can’t do this…
I’m not over the OM…

My question to you is if you claim to understand how you GOT in the affair, how come you can’t see how to get BACK to your husband? It is the SAME WAY.

Which one of you met the OM and was committing adultery 15 minutes after meeting him? If you had a ONS, the emotional attachment would not be there and you wouldn’t be in this predicament. You ALL say it started out with emotional needs and emotional affair FIRST. Did you have immediate emotional attachment with the OM when you first met him? Probably not.

It is a process.

You met and interacted with him and it was positive, in a friendly comforting way. The OM was a nice guy.

You looked forward to your next meeting, after all it was platonic. You let the emotions go a little further this time.

This process iterated, emotions getting more attached each time. How far did you go each time? Probably until you were uncomfortable with the strength of the feelings. But each time, the “boundary” moved a little bit. You just stretched your “comfort boundary” a little more.

Eventually, the boundary moved so far that you could “allow” yourself to break your marriage vows and commit adultery. And you couldn’t come back easily. It is like the “comfort boundary” would SNAP you back from the recoil if you stopped.

The point is, it took this INTERACTION with the OM to move your boundary. If you saw him once and just daydreamed about him WITHOUT interacting, would it have led to the affair? No.

And now you are all posting here telling us how hurt you are by all this. Telling us how much you have to get over. Telling us how you want to be a wife your husband deserves. We (the BS) get it. We read on this board and we are not ignorant of our contributions. All of your BS seem to be understanding and forgiving of you. Occasionally there are some LBs going both ways, but I don’t get the sense that any of you have a H that does not want this to work.

Then you say the infamous “I can’t see how to get these feelings back for my husband.”

HYPOCRITES! You do it the SAME WAY.

There is pain and hardship between the two of you now, it will be tough. There was no pain between you and the OM so it was easier, but the process is still the same.

Choose to interact with you husband in a small POSITIVE way. Do this until you are uncomfortable with how you are feeling then stop and take a break. I don’t think any of us (BS) would resent these baby steps, frankly I think we are all desperate for them.

Do it again, the boundary between you and your H will move.

Do it again and again and again, each time moving the boundary. Then one day you will wake up and be there.

I would like one of you to give me a good reason why this will not work. It is the way we are all made – no exceptions. It is why we say things like “practice makes perfect.”

I have a 4 yr old who is learning to swim. I have been mentoring him in this process of struggling until he is uncomfortable, taking a break, and getting back to it. Know what? He is making GREAT STRIDES in swimming. 2 weeks ago he wouldn’t go in the water without swimmies on and would not go in the pool where he could not stand. Yesterday, he swam to the bottom of the pool and picked something off the bottom. I have worked with him and kept the lessons positive. I have accomplished this in 4 lessons over 2 weeks.

My 4 yr old also plays video games. He likes to play the games his older brothers do, but they are too hard for him. He follows the same process, but has no one by his side to keep it positive. He doesn’t stop until his frustration mounts – very negative results. He is getting better, but the process is painful and slower. He pushes beyond where he is comfortable.

In both cased, he is making PROGRESS. Have a final goal in mind – the other side of the river. Set you mind on the first stepping stone to get to that goal, AND STEP ON IT. This works in every situation I have EVER encountered. It is just the learning process that God has wired in to all of us.

When you say things like “I just can’t” or “I don’t think I can” you are CURSING yourselves for failure. If in your mind, you don’t think you can step all the way to the other side of the river, stop worrying about the other side and look to the first stepping stone. If there is not one there PICK ONE UP ON THE SIDE OF THE RIVER YOU ARE ON AND TOSS IT IN THE WATER. Take steps you are comfortable with and be pleased with that. You have loving Hs on the other side who will help you find the stones. We don’t want you to fall in, we want you to come across this thing so we can continue on our journey together.

If you are saying that the feelings for the OM must go away first, I think that is a load of bunk. BEFORE your affair, you had stronger feelings for your family. Maybe not for your Hs, but for your family. The OM was a small piece that grew and pushed the larger pieces away, you family, your husband, your reputation, your relationship with God. You put your attention on the small piece, the OM, and it grew bigger than the others. But the other pieces were still there. And how easy it became to lose yourself to the OM. Why wouldn’t it? That is where your effort was going.

The ONLY difference is the bad feelings. There were no BAD feelings between you and the OM so it was easier to till that soil. There are now BAD feelings between you and your H. Some were there already before the A from your marital history based on things both of you did. Some big ones are there now because of the A. That just means that it will be harder to cross back to the right side of the river than it was to get to the wrong side. But guess what, on the return trip you have someone who loves you, and wants you to succeed. This person doesn’t want you to get your feet wet and will help you find the stones. On the trip to the OM, he didn’t really care if you fell in and were washed away. He would just start calling another woman across. It may feel harder to cross back, but with someone looking out for you on the other side, it is truly LESS RISKY to you. In truth, your H will probably step out into the river and meet you half way. Did the OM do that? No. He let you journey alone to his side. And when you were emotionally safely across, he made his move.

So your self-esteem and self-worth isn’t there. Well, your worth to God is a gift of grace and it IS there. You choose to accept it or not. Your self-worth, you have to earn that for yourself. Cross the river then tell me you don’t feel good about yourself. Even make progress across the river and feel your self worth increase. Win a spiritual battle, and bask in your victory and cultivate your self-worth. Have you ever talked to a fat woman losing weight? They are still really fat, but very happy with themselves because they are losing weight. There can be a 265 lb woman who starts losing weight and drops to 255 lbs. A 10 lb difference you can’t even see on her, why should she be so happy? She’s not different in any noticeable way, but she is MAKING PROGRESS.

If you need help finding some stepping stones, here are a few:
- A longing thought pops in to your head about the OM. Occupy your mind with something else, do a chore, read, veg-out with the TV.
- Sit by your H and hold his hand.
- Start to develop cascade thoughts: You see the OM vehicle and think “I miss what we had”. DON’T STOP THERE. Then think “But it was wrong and a lie of the enemy.” Soon, you will see his car and skip the middle thought.
- Let your H know you appreciate what he is doing for you. I don’t know about the rest of you, but RAP tells you in posts how much she appreciates me much more than she actually tells me. My guess is you do the same. “I am really blessed because of what you are doing for me” would work WONDERS for us, the BS. Is that really that hard to say?

Soon you will find that the shameful side of the river you were on is a distant memory.

I’m not saying it will be easy. It is hard for us, the BS, also. Don’t believe me? The evidence is right there when WE LB. The difference is we did not compromise our self worth in the affair. I think because of that, we have an easier time looking at the positive side. I think most of you WW are thinking how can that (our positive outlook) be real after what I have done. It also seems like most of you “knew” the A wasn’t real, and you did that. It just takes faith, belief that good WILL come of it. Do you want to know where your reassurance will come from? It will come from the reaction we have when you start moving towards us again.

If you are saying you just can’t face the pain, I would say that we can face whatever pain we HAVE to face. I cannot imagine childbirth, you faced that pain. You also had to. Are we (the BS) enabling you by being so forgiving? Is it making you think you DON’T have to face the pain you caused in our M? I would really like that question answered.

If you are still saying “I just can’t” you might as well say “I quit.” If you really think you “can’t,” you need to ask yourself is that REALLY it, or is it hard and you just don’t want to?

NCWalker

PS – This is a source of tension between me and RAP. I would appreciate any response to this of where I might not have this right.

PPS - I don't lurk on this thread. I have copied this over to this thread NCWalker - hope this helps. for your responses there.

<small>[ July 02, 2004, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: ncwalker ]</small>

<small>[ July 02, 2004, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: runawaypot ]</small>

This could be page out of my own M book right now. These are the very conversations my W and I are having. I need so much more than she is willing to give. The answer to almost any question I ask is, "I don't know." When that's all I hear, how in the world are we going to able to work on our M. If I take a care into the mechanic to fix a problem, the first question they ask is, "What's the car doing, or what's the problem?" If I just said "I don't know," they would persist until they found something out. They have to know the problem before they can fix it for Pete's sake.

Last night my W and I got into it again over this same issue. Only I've learned to back off and stop intead of launching through the roof.
I'm not asking this stuff of her because I know that it irritates her, I'm asking because I'm dying inside!!!!!!!

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but, sometimes it just feels like the reasoning for not really acting to make things better is absolute and complete selfishness. It's all about you and your feelings. Forget the family, forget the husband, forget the marrriage, forget your reputation, forget the good times, forget the years of being committed to each other....... I can't do this. Yes You Can! You just have to want to and then you just do it in faith and I believe most BH would be there to help.

Sometimes I feel like my W has built a wall that only she lives within. She won't let me in there. When things get uncomfortable she retreats within it's safe confines. She does what she wants and then, when it gets too scary she runs back to the fort. All I want is to know my wife again, to be intimate with her again. For us to work TOGETHER on making this thing better than it ever was in the past.

Does anyone here have the book "Torn Asunder"? It has a great section on the message of the affair. I gave book to my WH and he has not given it back.

But I distinctly remember that sometimes the WS does not know what was wrong with the marriage.

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 05:43 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

I adore you BV. You truly are a wonderful woman. Thank you for putting up with me and where I am at.

We will come out together and be the Proverbs 31 woman. Hopefully I will begin to do this before I am 70 years old. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Blessings,
Pam

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

Believer -

We have the book...I will look up that section later this evening and get back to you, ok? Was it you that asked me this before? I had forgotten, I'm sorry!

Pepperband,

You are right on the money. I apply this technique to myself all the time...works wonders!

I love you!

RAP - "Everything is gonna be ok"....repeat 50 times each day.

Did you consider maybe trying a different AD?

Julie