Dear Lisa,

Just read your post.. I am so encouratedby it and will reply more later, as am falling asleep in the chair, also your new Job??

Will post later,

~Take care, in all you do and remember how much we care for you and appreciate your input so much.

Kas

Kas,

I just want to let you know that although I haven’t post to you recently, I still read your posts and follow you through this difficult time. So much of the things you’re struggling with right now were the same with me while I was in early recovery... During the most difficult time of my recovery and withdrawal I didn’t post to these boards, because I felt too ashamed of myself to share it here. I’m an obsessive thinker (using medicine for OCD) and this was really a problem throughout my recovery. I have learned it’s sometimes better to stop fighting against all the thoughts and feelings, but just accept it, let it go through you and let it go then. In the beginning, the thoughts and feelings will come and go continuously and repetitively, but if you keep fighting against them, it will only get a stronger hold on you and you will remain in the downwards spiral. If you just start accepting the feelings; not paying attention to them; but in stead experience it, don’t think about it and try to analyze it; but in stead let it go through you till it dies again, you will experience that this cycle will get less and less with time and patience. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say since I find it difficult to express myself very clear on this.

I understand what you going through, I have been there as well. Although my involvement wasn't a PA as well, I understand how hard the emotional hold of an A is on a woman. I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ June 24, 2004, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Remember that old story about the man clinging to a vine dangling over a cliff, hanging on for dear life .... afraid to let go because to do so would mean certain death.....


And then God spoke to him and reassured the man that if he let go of the vine, God would save him....

And the man said, " You go first God. Save me first, then I'll let go.".....

LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Faith will save you, not anything the vine (OM) says or does or thinks or felt or nuttin' honey.

But, sometimes, it feels as if the only thing you have for sure is the vine.... so you hang on and hang on , etc.

You are such a fortunate person BV to be so strong in your faith....

Sounds dumb, but have faith in your faith.

I see your confidence is an issue for you....

Work on your confidence.

Love,

Pep

<small>[ July 29, 2004, 04:28 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

Ladies and JL (who I thought was female - how can a man have such insight?) -

Glad to see all of you still posting. You will get through this and have a much better marriage than before. And that will be your testimony- That God will restore the years the locusts have taken away. (Sorry, I forget where that is in the Bible).

I look forward to the day when you can truly forgive yourselves, and get on with living a wonderful (and well-deserved) life.

Believer -
I knew I wasn't alone. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ladies and JL (who I thought was female - how can a man have such insight?) -
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ky

Hello...

ME 3....

I TOTALLY thought JL was female! Realised was M on his last post I saw.

I am so grateful for his wisdom and insight. Hope you will still post here JL. Please do,

Kas

Ladies - I am lobbying for a forum for you. Please see my post.

To all you girls out there, hi. You are doing so great BV!

Believer,

Thank you for your post about a forum just for the WSs here.

This sounds kind of simple and not as eloquent as most of you are, but I could use a little prayer.

Just having a hard time. Nothing new that any of you have not gone through.

Thanks,
Pam

PS. Pepperband , you hit it on the head again with your vine imagery.

Psalm 131 (NIV) Like it in this version a lot:

My heart is not proud, O Lord,
my eyes are not haughty;
I do not concern myself with great matters
or things too wonderful for me.
But I have stilled and quieted my soul;
like a weaned child with its mother,
like a weaned child is my soul within
me.
O Israel, put your hope in the Lord
both now and forevermore.

A FEMALE??????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Oh! Good grief. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I think this is a sexist plot. Why can't a guy know what he is talking about? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You ladies just don't usually listen to us that is all. I had to sneak in under the guise of a FEMALE, to get you to listen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I am going to have to contact WAT, 2Long,JustJ, SKM, Spacecase, etc people that I have actually met to get personal references I can see.

Actually, it is pretty humorous, because if you met me, you would be shocked. I'm 6'4" of rippling... muscle (yeah muscle is the word I'm looking for,I know I have the rippling part right.) Raised in the military, been trained and was in the military, and work in a almost totally male field. Played sports all of my life, play two college sports, somewhere I seem to have lost my identity. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And further...I am flattered. I really am, because it has always been my intent to try and avoid biases I might have when offering advice. I guess now and then I do alright. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ok, now that I have settled that, back to your regular programing ladies. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

6'4 of rippling muscle. WHATEVER <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Oh, so it's not true you look like Danny de Vito only shorter. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Gotta go, meeting the group for lunch today.

Jenny

Ummmmmmmm JL, will be needing to see a picture of that 6'4 muscle machine.

Thanks, we are waiting.
KY & the girls.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ok JL...thread jack time...I haven't heard anything from you either on my "I GOT A NEW JOB THREAD"!!!!!!!!!

KAS / BV

I can't recall...

Have you read "Torn Asunder" ....?

This book deals extensively with church-related affairs. (among others)

You may find your own story on the pages...

Pep

Dear Pepperband,

Thanks for your post and book recommendation. It sounds very familiar, but I haven't read it. Would like to though.

Who is it by please, so I can order it from my local Christian Bookstore.

I am going to go on Amazon after posting to see if I can get it from there.

I will be honest and confess to you, that at the moment I am quite 'anxious' as to how I feel about my dear H...

I guess this is part of the stages of withdrawal, but as I have never been in a situation like this before it is very confusing..

What I am 'trying' to say is that I don't seem to feel anything 'phys' towards him.. Am sorry and ashamed to say this. Because to my shame I experienced certain feelings with OM that I hadn't before with H this is quite a big stumbling block for me in the phys area.

I don't know who else to talk to. I don't want to talk to anyone else (outside of you guys on this site), because I could never bring myself again to discuss 'personal' things with a minister again.

I know I am expecting a HUGE amount of help from you all in this, but apart from God, I will only discuss this with you and other FWW who may be at this stage too in their withdrawal.

Thanks for listening and for helping,

Kas

Who is it by please, so I can order it from my local Christian Bookstore.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Carder

It's featured on Focus On Family website also.

Pep

BV,

Hi, how are you? I don't want to take over your thread (at all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , but do you mind if I join in with you in the wanting help part? I feel exactly the same way. Just about word for word. Don't know how to deal with it. Glad you asked and expressed it BV. Helping this chicken out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pam

BV,

I would like to recommend that you go to the emotional needs section and read the posts by HOPE. They may help you see things a bit differently.

Your feelings are not that unusual, but it is hard to address them until you get through withdrawal and see your H in a new light. It is one of the Breakthroughs you need to go through.

Further, if it is something that OM did for/to you, you might at some point to H and tell him what you like. You might be surprised at his response. I doubt your H is as experienced as your OM was, so he may need to learn a few things or realize a few things. You may need to learn some things as well, one of which is that men do like to please their partner. It is a turn for them, and feedback is appreciate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But, read Hope's post and see what you think.

One thing that your H cannot duplicate is the "thrill" of doing something illicit and wrong, of hiding something from everyone, of the US against the WORLD feelings, that are part of the fantasy of the affair. But, there is something he can give you that OM cannot, and that being made love to by a man that is devoted to YOU. He can do that when you are ready. Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Dear all,

First of all, thanks Pepperband for the book details. I will go through Focus on the Family to try and get it. I have listened to their broadcasts quite a bit (and the marriage ones, and the ‘intimate’ marriage radio broadcasts).

Runnawaypot,

I will be honest and say this is the hardest part of withdrawal… At first after confessing I seemed to be glad of phys with H, but now seems the reverse is happening. I want to be ‘alone’ more and not be touched AT ALL even hugged or kissed on the head. It is very scary as a Christian to feel this way, particularly because of who OM was.

I keep telling myself ‘haven’t you done enough or been through enough to keep wanting OM like this, and it is as if my heart and head are continually in battle.. (I did read Dr. Harley’s thoughts on this too which were an excellent description of how we can have a conversation with ourselves in this area)

JL,

I will go to EN and read the posts on Hope. Am desperate to get through this.
I think you have hit on a definite point in this:

“Your feelings are not that unusual, but it is hard to address them until you get through withdrawal and see your H in a new light. It is one of the Breakthroughs you need to go through.”

Yes I do need to see H in a new light. It is the process which is scary though because even when I married H I never felt ‘passion for him’ in that area. I just never thought of it as being important.. We made a commitment to each other, served God together, raised a family together, and he is a faithful, hardworking, caring, and just about everything in one. Yet passion was never an issue or worry to me…

Then…… 18/19 years later I get involved in an affair where suddenly feelings I have NEVER felt before all come out in the short space of a few months. Wrong feelings yes, absolutely, but such strong emotional passionate feelings, that it is now tearing me apart inside… How can I subdue them, erase them, re-channel them? Can they even be re-channelled to H??

It is a ‘feeling based’ thing. H could do the same as OM, but I am in despair now that the passion that came out for OM wasn’t there before with H, so how do I ‘make’ it there now???

“One thing that your H cannot duplicate is the "thrill" of doing something illicit and wrong, of hiding something from everyone, of the US against the WORLD feelings, that are part of the fantasy of the affair. But, there is something he can give you that OM cannot, and that being made love to by a man that is devoted to YOU. He can do that when you are ready. Think about it.”

I think the key is as JL put it…. I am expecting my H to duplicate a ‘thrill feeling’ which of course he could not do.

Why then do I desperately want this ‘thrill’ feeling and fantasy I keep asking and asking myself.

Husband stands for :

Reliability
Trust
Faithfulness
Hope
Security
Friendship

Why is this ‘passion and thrill’ thing so important to me when H stands for all those qualities?

OM and I (am sorry to express – please forgive me any BS reading. I do want to understand myself and come out of this…) had a sexual CHEMISTRY.. I could have phys with H but the ‘chemistry’ isn’t there but feelings of a different kind ie fondness etc but no ‘passion’ or ‘chemistry’…

This is suddenly becoming quite a worry for me. If I don’t sort this issue out don’t you think it would be a HUGE stumbling block in a recovery?

Thanks as always to you all. You are so patient in listening and replying and I say that sincerely.

Kas

BV,

Well, I can see this as getting clearer and clearer. I apologize if I get too graphic, I will try to avoid it,but what you said is exactly the key to this, not withstanding the reality of withdrawal, which you just have to get through.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes I do need to see H in a new light. It is the process which is scary though because even when I married H I never felt ‘passion for him’ in that area. I just never thought of it as being important.. We made a commitment to each other, served God together, raised a family together, and he is a faithful, hardworking, caring, and just about everything in one. Yet passion was never an issue or worry to me…</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That was YOUR fault. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> And I will tell you why, you very likely felt that a "good W" did NOT do certain things, a "good W" did NOT desire sex, a "good W" would NOT talk to her H about what she wanted, and needed in bed. He very likely felt that as your H, and a christian man he could NOT demand/expect certain things from you. You two neutered each other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then…… 18/19 years later I get involved in an affair where suddenly feelings I have NEVER felt before all come out in the short space of a few months.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course you weren't OM's W. You were cheating and therefore anything you wanted or he wanted was fair because you had already shrugged off the W role and were now a... You fill in the blank. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Now sex was important,it was expected, it was used to express your feelings, his feelings. You never used sex like that in your marriage did you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wrong feelings yes, absolutely, but such strong emotional passionate feelings, that it is now tearing me apart inside… How can I subdue them, erase them, re-channel them? Can they even be re-channelled to H??</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh the feelings are NOT wrong, but I would bet you have felt they were wrong within your marriage. You can rechannel them when you can see your H as a MALE, not as just your H. When you can see he NEEDS to have sex with you, he NEEDS to see you satisfied, he NEEDS to be satisfied, just as much as your OM ever did. He has very likely subjegated his needs to as not to offend his W. Do you know if he has fantasies about sex? I'll bet you don't.
You were a good Christian W, but you were not a good Christina ******, so you allowed yourself to enjoy it, you needed to enjoy it.

Am I getting close BV?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is a ‘feeling based’ thing. H could do the same as OM, but I am in despair now that the passion that came out for OM wasn’t there before with H, so how do I ‘make’ it there now???</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It would have been there if you had allowed it, if you had asked for your H to show you passion. You can "make" it there by deciding that sex is something that is good, that between a married couple anything goes as long as both enjoy it or derive enjoyment. You need to see sex within the marriage differently. Want an example?? Look at the list of your H's attributes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">“One thing that your H cannot duplicate is the "thrill" of doing something illicit and wrong, of hiding something from everyone, of the US against the WORLD feelings, that are part of the fantasy of the affair. But, there is something he can give you that OM cannot, and that being made love to by a man that is devoted to YOU. He can do that when you are ready. Think about it.”

I think the key is as JL put it…. I am expecting my H to duplicate a ‘thrill feeling’ which of course he could not do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He cannot duplicate the "thrill of cheating", but he can duplicate the "thrill" of enjoying sex, uninhibited sex, if you will let him and tell him what you need. BV you start running around the house without panties on and let him know you are doing that, and I would bet the "thrill" will come back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why then do I desperately want this ‘thrill’ feeling and fantasy I keep asking and asking myself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because what you want is a good thing. You now are admitting you are a sexual being, you just need to admit that your H is as well. What you want is what most men want in their marriage and don't get. It is what some women want that have a high sex drive want and frequently don't get. It is normal, it is not about OM in my mind. It is about you, and what you finally experienced, and you can have it with your H.

Look at this list: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Husband stands for :

Reliability
Trust
Faithfulness
Hope
Security
Friendship</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't see Male listed here, I don't see sex partner listed here, I don't see horney listed here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , I don't see lover listed here. Husband stands for these as well BV, you have just basically cut your H's b**ls off with what you feel is a good H. Hence you have gotten what you expected. You can have more, you need to ask for it, you need to tell him what you want, when you want it, or give him control and tell him you want to be not just his W but his lover. I am betting the day you tell him that, will be a day he will go to his grave remembering. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why is this ‘passion and thrill’ thing so important to me when H stands for all those qualities?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because you are a sexual human being and you should feel the need for passion, but you need to broaden the definition of an H, to include LOVER.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OM and I (am sorry to express – please forgive me any BS reading. I do want to understand myself and come out of this…) had a sexual CHEMISTRY..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You had a sexual chemistry because you were not embarressed to ask for what you wanted. You told him. You allowed him to tell you. You accepted what he offerec. You did NOT deny him. You were NOT a Wife to him.

Notice all of the "you's"? Well, if YOU do the same with your H, you will get all of that PLUS the love, and security of your marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I could have phys with H but the ‘chemistry’ isn’t there but feelings of a different kind ie fondness etc but no ‘passion’ or ‘chemistry’…</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You defined away the "chemistry" because you never allowed or wanted your H to be your lover. You have had a lover now, and you want that as well. Well, you can get it but you are going to have to tell your H what you want, you are going to have to show H what you want, and you are going to have to give your H permission to be your lover, you have denied him that for your whole marriage.

[quote}This is suddenly becoming quite a worry for me. If I don’t sort this issue out don’t you think it would be a HUGE stumbling block in a recovery?
[/quote]

It will become less of a worry as withdrawal ends. It will become even less of a worry if you decided an H could be a lover as well. It will become even less of a worry if you ask your H to be your lover, take some risks, do some "scandalous" things :rolleyes" with him, and just plain have fun with him in bed. Become your H's lover, that is what you need to do BV. I am betting he will love it and after the initial shock, and concerns of what YOU think of him, you might find you have all of the lover you can handle.

BV, out of love, many of us spouses become what our W's/H's want, and out of embarrassment we don't tell them what we need and what we want, and how we want it. It is not a new thing, but if you start to tell your H what you need sexually, if you start to see him as your lover, and not just the guy that does the lawn and brings home the check. I think you will find the passion.

BV, we often blame our spouse for not having what we failed to bring to the marriage. YOu think your H is without passion, but it is your that brought no passion to the marriage because of your thoughts about what a "good W" and a "good H" should be.

In my mind, they should be lovers and darned good lovers, think about that.

Hope something I have said helps.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ June 25, 2004, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>