JL,

I have fallen down and I cannot get back up!!!

Wow!! Excellent post. Hope BV sees it soon.

Pam

JL...you just describe my situation exactly as well. Oh my God, you absolutely amaze me with your insight, still!!

BV...your situation is EXACTLY, to the word, like mine. That absolutely amazes me!!

I can't hardly wait to jump my husband! LOL

Thanks JL and my H would say THANKS also!

Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

JL that was such a brilliant, lovely post but it just doesn't apply to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

That worries me.


Jenny

<small>[ June 25, 2004, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

Jenny,

Can't be all things to all people. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Don't worry about it. You and your H are doing well.

God Bless,

JL

Jenny..why doesn't it apply?

I'm not good company today. I don't know why.

It doesn't apply because H and I have always been lovers before anything else. We've always put our "married" relationship before anything else. We've always called each other a couple of perverts and giggled about it.

So if that's the case what need was OM filling. Where the he!! did he fit in to the picture <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Jenny

Hey Jenny, I am in the same boat as you, don't know where the OM fits in all of this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Hi Carol, perhaps I should get out the big, bad 2x4 I've got behind my back and give myself a good old whack on the head with it.

Jenny

<small>[ June 25, 2004, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

Swing one at me too while you are at it...

I'm signed onto AOL at the moment if you want to send the e-mail.

Jenny

Dear JL,

I haven’t even been over to the EN site but I HAVE found answers to the REAL ME through your reply..

You have probably SO MUCH (no definitely) SO MUCH understood my mindset in all this that I can say TODAY in this moment of time and HISTORY I humbly and honestly CONFESS a light is starting to dawn on why I am like it…

The key is: You are totally 100% right
~~~~~~~~~~~
I have never looked on my husband as a LOVER
I have only seen him as a HUSBAND
I have only seen him as a ‘male companion’ in the Christian life
I have never looked on him with ‘eyes of passion’ and as a MALE


The reality of this dawning on me today at this moment in time is so overwhelming that I have to print out your reply and keep reading it today and come back again tonight to post to you again….

“That was YOUR fault. And I will tell you why, you very likely felt that a "good W" did NOT do certain things, a "good W" did NOT desire sex, a "good W" would NOT talk to her H about what she wanted, and needed in bed. He very likely felt that as your H, and a christian man he could NOT demand/expect certain things from you. You two neutered each other.”

Absolutely right how I thought and was….

“Of course you weren't OM's W. You were cheating and therefore anything you wanted or he wanted was fair because you had already shrugged off the W role and were now a... You fill in the blank. Now sex was important,it was expected, it was used to express your feelings, his feelings. You never used sex like that in your marriage did you?”

Exactly. With OM it was an expression of feelings. With H it was a ‘duty’. I had separated the two feelings in my mind and ‘compartmentalized’ them. O God please help me..

“Oh the feelings are NOT wrong, but I would bet you have felt they were wrong within your marriage. You can rechannel them when you can see your H as a MALE, not as just your H. When you can see he NEEDS to have sex with you, he NEEDS to see you satisfied, he NEEDS to be satisfied, just as much as your OM ever did. He has very likely subjegated his needs to as not to offend his W. Do you know if he has fantasies

Yes. Not just close, but on the head.

[B]“It would have been there if you had allowed it, if you had asked for your H to show you passion. You can "make" it there by deciding that sex is something that is good, that between a married couple anything goes as long as both enjoy it or derive enjoyment. You need to see sex within the marriage differently. Want an example?? Look at the list of your H's attributes.”

I always wanted to experience an ‘O’ but was too afraid of ‘letting go’ in my mind.. How I need to see sex differently. . Am so anxious I wont be able to do what I need to do??

“Because what you want is a good thing. You now are admitting you are a sexual being, you just need to admit that your H is as well. What you want is what most men want in their marriage and don't get. It is what some women want that have a high sex drive want and frequently don't get. It is normal, it is not about OM in my mind. It is about you, and what you finally experienced, and you can have it with your H.”

Is it ok to ask for more advice and help in your opinion on how to change my mindset. Can you please help me JL??

“I don't see Male listed here, I don't see sex partner listed here, I don't see horney listed here , I don't see lover listed here. Husband stands for these as well BV,”

I understand, but I need serious help to change my mindset after (19 years).

“BV, we often blame our spouse for not having what we failed to bring to the marriage. YOu think your H is without passion, but it is your that brought no passion to the marriage because of your thoughts about what a "good W" and a "good H" should be.”


You are so right. I need help. The light is dawning. I have to change because it is the key. Passion & re-focusing is the KEY to me in my situation on getting back into my marriage, because if I don’t sort this out …I just don’t know what to say..

Have to take D out now. Please post again, and give me more insight and advice on how I can start to change.

I am very nervous.

Kas

Dear KiwiJ&chackler,

Hi both of you,

Just logged back on after being out for a while. Just a quick post, because I want to go and order a couple of books that have been recommended to me, whilst the computer is free and kids out.

Just wanted to say, please don't worry how you are feeling either, when you said 'this doesn't apply to me'.. I understand things from your point of view too...

In a way, learning from each other and our different situations can make us all 'face' a different aspect in our lives and A which have been involved in.

You may not know 'where' OM fitted in in your situation when you say your H and yourself were lovers already before you had the A, but even that does have an answer.. You will find it.. I think all of us have 'issues' in our relationship with our H's to make us see things clearer and to understand why it happend with us.

I may STILL have had an A even if H and I were good lovers. I don't know, but it could be possible to be good lovers and still be 'emotionally' distant in the relationship after being intimate with one's spouse. Communication, lifestyles, hobbies, wanting something 'different' etc etc could contribute.

JL was 'spot on' for me in my own particular situation and though he was direct, it made me realise a thought pattern I had within me which was a BIG stumbling block in my recovery, and which I need to go over and work through.

Sometimes I look at others and am jelous in a way, how they have had a 'lovers relationship' with their H and know what it is like. I haven't had that so have been living off what OM made me feel like...

It is going to be very hard to let go of that in my mind and work on looking to H for that. I confess I don't know where to begin. I need help. I need councel. I feel very blessed to have you all on this site.

Would you mind sharing and trying to help me too, in that what made you originally feel 'passion' feelings with your H??

Did you have that before you were married, or did you work on it after?

I would appreciate your input, if you feel you could..

Don't worry if you would rather not. I will totally understand.

Take care all of you and thanks for being there.

Kas

ps Dear all,

Was just going back on this thread from the start of it to check the book names before ordering them, and I don't know how I managed to miss this post from JL!! As I said I 'totally' thought he was female.

Have you watch the film 'what women want?" He reminds me (no offense JL though) of Mel Gibson's role character. How he got inside the mind of women.

Remember the women all saying to him "yes that is just what I was thinking...how did you know that"..

JL said....

"A FEMALE???????

Oh! Good grief.

I think this is a sexist plot. Why can't a guy know what he is talking about? You ladies just don't usually listen to us that is all. I had to sneak in under the guise of a FEMALE, to get you to listen.

I am going to have to contact WAT, 2Long,JustJ, SKM, Spacecase, etc people that I have actually met to get personal references I can see.

Actually, it is pretty humorous, because if you met me, you would be shocked. I'm 6'4" of rippling... muscle (yeah muscle is the word I'm looking for,I know I have the rippling part right.) Raised in the military, been trained and was in the military, and work in a almost totally male field. Played sports all of my life, play two college sports, somewhere I seem to have lost my identity.

And further...I am flattered. I really am, because it has always been my intent to try and avoid biases I might have when offering advice. I guess now and then I do alright.

Ok, now that I have settled that, back to your regular programing ladies.

God Bless,

JL "

Your post made me laugh JL. I am so glad I went back to the start of the thread and saw it.. I was beginning to think perhaps a 'birth certificate show' would be in order as you seem so in tune with us ladies!!

As you said though:

"Now that you have settled that, back to our regular programming"!!

Thanks again,

Pleas keep posting and helping us.

ps. Where is WAT?? Is HE(??) OK?

Kas

BV,

You asked a variety of questions including about the "big O". Well before we address the "big O" we need to talk about more important stuff,like how to do quotes and Graemlins.

First the faces. If you are posting you will see on the lower left "instant Graemlins" if you click on one it will place the the face where your cursor is such as this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . However, you can simply type them. If I type them correctly you will see the facee and not the characters so I will spell out colon, and semi-colon. You will see a pattern very soon.

Happy face is colon ) Notice the right paren is actually smiling.

A winking smile is semicolon ) naturally.

Sad face is colon ( Notice the left paren is frowning.

My favorite is coloneekcolon.

You can do colonrolleyescolon

Or you can go colonp for the RAZZZZZ.

colonD is exactly like it looks two eyes and a big grin, and

on it goes.

Warning it think it is still true that you can only use eight of these in a single posts.

Now quotes, again I will substitute a symbol so that the quotes don't come up but you can see the commands. Here you really use square brackets [], but for illustration I will use the curly brackets {} , So for a quote {quote}TEXT{/quote} The back slash ends the command. So you can do as I do. I copy to the clip board what I want to quote, I then type {quote} {/quote} and then insert between the quote commands the text.

This works for chaning fonts if you want italics {i} text {/i} will put the enclosed text in italics. Bold is {b} {/b} with text in the middle.

Just remember to use the square brackets.

One final thing if you want to bookmark a post for other people to read such as your earlier posts or those by someone else. You do the same thing {url=address of post}Give it a name {/url}

The address of the post is usually found at the top of your browser http://******** just copy it and past it behind the url= part. The name in the middle can be any thing, such as "BV's posts".

Ok, now on to sex.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. With OM it was an expression of feelings. With H it was a ‘duty’. I had separated the two feelings in my mind and ‘compartmentalized’ them. O God please help me..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well God can help, but so can reading the bible and talking with your H. If you read the bible and I know you do, you may have not paid attention to the significant amount of sex and betrayal recounted. You will be amazed especially in the old testament. Now as I said before I am not a scholar on the Bible, but I think the message is very clear.

NOWHERE does it say that Man and Wife should not be passionately sexual. In fact, what is recounted is the failure to do that, and consequences of sharing such passion outside of the marriage. Sex is simply the most powerful driver between male and female and as such it has the power for enormous joy and HEALING, and enormous destruction. How have you used sex?

It was not for healing, it was not to reach deeper in your marriage, it was destruction. So now do you see where your help can come from?

Your H can help a lot and I will get to that in a moment. But, think about this, I am betting you like many feel that sex is actually against your religion, but when you think about it you know it is not true. But the admonitions to not "sin" have not been preached with clear and well founded boundaries.

My W worries that the "children" might hear us. The youngest is 17, and HE does know about the "birds and the bees". He also has gotten the idea that he has two parents, that immaculate conception DID NOT occur at our house. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> So what is she worried about? Deep down, she feels she should NOT like sex, it is her training.

Do you see the strangeness of this?? Do you see that you just might WANT to have a marriage with your passionate lover?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

[B]“It would have been there if you had allowed it, if you had asked for your H to show you passion. You can "make" it there by deciding that sex is something that is good, that between a married couple anything goes as long as both enjoy it or derive enjoyment. You need to see sex within the marriage differently. Want an example?? Look at the list of your H's attributes.”

I always wanted to experience an ‘O’ but was too afraid of ‘letting go’ in my mind.. How I need to see sex differently. . Am so anxious I wont be able to do what I need to do??</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it ok to ask for more advice and help in your opinion on how to change my mindset. Can you please help me JL??
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will do my best, but again I am not a counselor, just a guy. But, let me ask you something, does your H know you want an "O"? If not why not? Here is where you really need to talk to him.

Let me offer a trial discussion to illustrate.

BV: H you realize that I am having trouble reconnecting to you physically. I don't want to hurt you, but I need to be very very honest with you. I have not and really never did because I always felt a "good W" did not desire sex, shouldn't expect to be pleased, should not take a passionate pleasure in it. I never felt my H should be my passionate lover.

H, I learned in my A that I enjoyed the passion, I crave the passion, and I am coming to realize the fact that we did not was due to my perspectives. I would like to change them. If I could I want to become a passionate lover to you, and you to me.

H, does that bother you?

BV's H, sitting there with his mouth open, trying to decide if he has just been run through the heart by her confession of passion with OM, or her confession that she found no passion with him, or if he has been handed the biggest gift of his life by his W asking him to join her in becoming passionate lovers. He cannot figure this out, so he says in typical male "coolness" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> , "I don't know."

BV continues: "H I have always wanted an "O" but I have never had one with you, could we learn to do that? Would you be willing to help me? We could even get books if it helps, but I want that with you."

BV's H is probably thinking there is a God in Heaven says: "Yeah sure, I would really like that."

JL's comment: "No Kidding!" :rolleyes

BV, this starts with talk, it starts with opening up. I don't know the level of details your H knows about your relationship with OM, but I would strongly suggest that you do with your H what you did with OM, and then do something else as well.

Your H is going to be hurt that he "failed" to be the H you needed (I am guessing he always wanted a passionate marriage) and he feels he failed to be good enough to encourage you to be his passionate W. He will recognize the truth of your new perspectives, but his heart will feel bad.

But, if you two start to talk, start to consider what a passionate marriage might be, then you two start to address this, especially seeing if you can ENJOY sex with your H, including the O. Then you will not only start to heal, you will start to build.

I will caution you that many women don't achieve an O with traditional missionary position sex. I won't presume to assume what you have done or are willing to do, but you and your H need to discuss this. Yes, the normal ways are oral and digital. It can be others. It is something that you two should enjoy exploring. If OM did it for you, then you have some clues but discuss it with your H.

That is the best advice I can give you. If you want passion you need to be passionate about what you want. Your H is more than just a guy you married, and I suspect he will meet your needs as an Passionate husband. However,don't make the mistake of comparing your H and OM. They are not the same men, they situation is very different, and OM was given by you the advantage of providing you a fantasy situation. Your H is a real person, and whatever you do with him will NOT be fantasy but reality. That is a good thing but it will be different.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

Dear JL,

Thanks for coming back to me on this. I really appreciate it.

Thanks for your help on smileys etc. I think I may have just got the hang of it now. Am also doing this post on ‘works’ first before posting because I don’t want to lose it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Your post really made me laugh at the following point (your dry sense of humour was just the right tonic at this moment in time) You said:

“BV's H, sitting there with his mouth open, trying to decide if he has just been run through the heart by her confession of passion with OM, or her confession that she found no passion with him, or if he has been handed the biggest gift of his life by his W asking him to join her in becoming passionate lovers. He cannot figure this out, so he says in typical male "coolness" , "I don't know." “ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

WHO ARE YOU JL, I mean REALLY? How come you have this insight? You are serious, yet funny, straight down the line, yet not condemning, you seem to be a Christian yet am not sure, yet I feel I can discuss personal things with you?!

Before I start I did go over to the posts ‘Hope’ on EN and read them through. Her situation is quite similar, with the exception that she at least had in the past experienced passion with her husband, but then ‘lost’ it a bit.

I read your replies to her, and again you hit something on the head with me… Yes. I had a ‘mindset’ of just thinking sex was there when I got married JUST TO HAVE CHILDREN…. I loved kids and we went for a family immediately. Got pregnant 4 months after being married. Went on to have more.

Then, I got busy with the kids, and once H had the operation, sex just became a ‘ritual’ for me…HOWEVER,

H understands me in that area. He has always felt sad he wasn’t able to help me achieve O in our marriage yet we did read books, see the doctor, have counseling etc etc, but I never really understood what it was or how to get it despite all our efforts.

I knew it was something that God created me to experience in my life, yet I gave up on trying to find out how in the end.

Will be totally honest with you as I am trying to get help on this. OM and I never went ‘all the way’. Nearly but didn’t. Did do other things though, and did find him a passionate and emotional L in that way. I will quote something from Hope if I may:

Hope said “I want to feel that physical, primal urge for sex. Is it too much to ask? Am I dreaming or it does exist among married couples? I don’t want to think of sex as another job to be accomplished 2, 3, 4 times a week.”

“You see, I know for a fact that my body works, and there is a dimension of me that is highly sexual. I can remember a time when my entire being and mindset was focused on sex, and that part is still there somewhere, but I am not able to find its way anymore.”

The only difference is that Hope has experienced with H in past.. Since my A with OM I know there is nothing wrong with me phys because I know I can but I can agree with the following:

It still comes down to this ‘mindset’ in me. My mind and ‘inner me’ was attracted and had a chemistry with OM, so that must make a difference.

Grumpet said…
According to the shrink my wife and I went to, sex is 95% mental and 5% related to body. If your mind wants to have sex with your husband you will..

(Please please anyone else reading this, don’t send me 4x4’s back. I have acknowledged my sin before God and am genuinely trying to be restored in Him. My conversation on this topic with JL is part of my marriage recovery and healing in my M… I hope you will accept this from me)

JL you ended your post to me:

“However,don't make the mistake of comparing your H and OM. They are not the same men, they situation is very different, and OM was given by you the advantage of providing you a fantasy situation. Your H is a real person, and whatever you do with him will NOT be fantasy but reality. That is a good thing but it will be different.”

I know I can achieve O because H and I bought the ‘digital’ thing..However, my ‘mind’ seems closed to him in a ‘passion’ sense still. (As I said to you earlier, even when I got married I just never explored the passionate side of me’)

Now I feel I am in the highly dangerous state of only OM arousing these feelings in me, because I experienced them for the first time with him.

If you can make some sense of what I am saying JL, I would really appreciate your thoughts and help still.

Thanks so much <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Kas

Yippee a sex thread, I have been looking for one of these. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi BV. I'm very willing to talk sex, but don't want to embarass myself by giving TMI.

I feel sex comes easy when my needs are being fulfilled. My H and I have read Mars and Venus in the Bedroom. Have you read this???? It is quite helpful. A great discussion book, but it sounds like you and yours discuss sex, you just have trouble performing. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

The big O, you poor thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I'm very curious what the digital comment meant. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I will proudly say, I faked it for about 5 years of our R, but NO LONGER DO!!!!!! Never again will I.

It is a must for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> My H knows before he enters the Magical Kingdom, he must cross the Big O bridge to get there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

In the book it talks about Polarity Sex. This is what he and I practice. We didn't know it had a name until we read the book.

The passion, I absolutely had that when we first got M, had to have it, anywhere, anytime, and place, absolutely needed him. Now however with two kids and lots of LB, the passion isn't always there.

It goes back to fulfillment, when I'm fulfilled I want him. With great passion I want him. I always have slumpts, but I rebound. I wish it could be a constant, but the book explains woman just aren't like that. Most woman.

I believe for great sex we need to feel passion from within ourselves, not just for op, but from within us.

I'm a very sexual woman, I'm just not always in that mindset due to things happening around me. I think if more of us post you will find you are quite normal.

My two cents, KY

BV,

I do have an analogy in mind that might help you. Let's say you are a little girl, or perhaps not so little a girl. You have two uncles, every time you see one, he gives you candy. The other one is nice friendly but he doesn't give you candy, but he does give your parents $1000 to start a college fund for you.

Which Uncle do you think you would have liked the best? Which Uncle really had your best interests at heart?

Let's analyze this a moment. The Uncle gave you the candy for what reason? He liked to see you smile, he liked you sitting on his lap thanking him, he like you happy. But, he was also giving you something that was bad for your teeth, etc.

The other Uncle gets NO appreciation from other than whatever your reaction is to him as a man and a relative. He may joke with you and make you laugh, or he may seem very serious, but will give him NOTHING for the gift he has given you, because you don't appreciate it, you don't understand it.

Now years/decades later, which Uncle will seemed to have your best interests at heart? Which Uncle gave more but expected less in return? You are not enemies with either of them, but clearly one of those two men met very very important needs for you, and that was your education.

Do you see the analogy to your situation. You will need to "grow up", ie change your perspective, before you will see your H in the proper light, but you can accelerate the process by talking with him.

As for your hunt for the O with your H, you need to change your perspective there. I am not sure I have the words to express this to you. Because what you have to do is what I told Hope, you have to be a bit selfish here. You have to want it and express to your H what you want. You have to allow him to do this, but it will take encouragement from you, guidance, and then patience. It may take doing something neither of you have done before. I don't know these details of course.

But, BV, the process of trying, of communicating, of his trying and your encouraging, of you helping him, will change your perspective. My bet is that he has NOT opened up to you about his desires either. You think he just wants to "get off", but I can assure he wants much more, but he may not have expressed it to you.

BV, it is mental, and it really is NOT about sex. Sex is just one of many medium by which married couples show their "passion" for the marriage.

I would like to urge you to read "The Passionate Marriage" by an author whose name eludes me right now. But, more importantly you need to realize that passion is something that comes with TRUST, HONESY, and a willingness to admit to your desire to be desired. But, more importantly is comes with DOING things together, being open with one another, being vulnerable.

Your H has sort of acted like your counselor from what you have said. He has sought refuge from his pain in his religion. He has put aside his pain to help you, and save HIS marriage. He has had to disassociate to do this.

You want to feel passion, look into his heart and feel what he feels for you, what he is willing to do for you, how he wants you for his W and partner. You will see it, and you will learn what it really looks like, not just smooth words uttered by a man that is skilled at convincing others to believe as him, but a man that has committed to you. Someday, ask him to look into his heart and tell you what he feels, why he stayed with you, why he wants you in his life. And listen to his eyes, and his motions, and what he doesn't say as much as what he does. I think you will see what you were looking for in the OM, and you had it all of the time. If you do this, don't do it with guilt in your heart, or even an apology, just look as a woman, as his W, and you see things differently.

I realize you want it back now. But, it is Harley that points out you often need to do things such as sex when you are not quite ready because it is a somewhat a habit you learn, it is somewhat practice, and it is somewhat "walking before you run." Passion takes practice BV, at least the real kind does. The movie kind, the teenage HORMONE kind doesn't but the adult kind, Oh! yes it does take practice, OM had plenty.

So I don't know if I have helped you at all with this, but I hope that I have you thinking about this, talking to your H about this, and perhaps as time goes on, your perspective will change.

God Bless,

JL

BV, Just read JL's post, he is briliant, just not sure about him being male, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

He wrote </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As for your hunt for the O with your H, you need to change your perspective there. I am not sure I have the words to express this to you. Because what you have to do is what I told Hope, you have to be a bit selfish here. You have to want it and express to your H what you want. You have to allow him to do this, but it will take encouragement from you, guidance, and then patience. It may take doing something neither of you have done before. I don't know these details of course.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my book it says a man is more fulfilled Sexually when he fulfills his partner, a man is looking to always fulfill her.

Go with this.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Allow him to please you, show him how, he wants to know.

KY - another 2 cents.