Dear JL,

Just a quick post before I to bed. Am so tired.(have taken more sleeping tablets than i should recently),

I realize you want it back now. But, it is Harley that points out you often need to do things such as sex when you are not quite ready because it is a somewhat a habit you learn, it is somewhat practice, and it is somewhat "walking before you run." Passion takes practice BV, at least the real kind does.

I understand this what you are saying. So is this the first step, the first thing I have to do would you say, as Dr Harley says? Would you also think this? I am ready to make that step 1 if you think it will help....ie

Step 1....Do sex even though I feel nothing in it at first.... Out of this a light should dawn hopefully and I can make up a stage 2 then ie

Step 2..... Now experiment in what you both like

Step 3.....Be confident in your 'passion' and don't hold my inhibitions in... Let them Out

Step 4..... Should experience the big O as a result????? Hoping so??????

I am a 'plan and rountine' person normally...If something doesn'twork 'instantly' I lose patience with trying.

Two thingsworry me though JL...

1. I have NEVER EVER EVER been used to letting myself go with H before. Only OM because he made me feel that way without doing anything...That was how bad I was E and Phys attached to him...

2. If it doesn't work I will get dishearted.


Will you please helpme some more if poss? Am going to sleep now. Will log in tomorrow.

Dear KIWI,

Thanks for posting too. Your post made me smile by your opening line to me:

Yippee a sex thread, I have been looking for one of these.

I believe for great sex we need to feel passion from within ourselves, not just for op, but from within us.

That is how I want to feel for H but only OM made me feel like it.

I know I need help.

Thanks for your input and suggestions to me. I really appreciateit.

Goodnite all until tomorrow,

Think we should ask JL for his birth certificate??!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Iam so grateful for his input thought, so will forgive his being a MALE to give it to me!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

love and blessings to you and thanks

Kas

BV,

Just some more thoughts based on what you have said.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you watch the film 'what women want?" He reminds me (no offense JL though) of Mel Gibson's role character. How he got inside the mind of women.

Remember the women all saying to him "yes that is just what I was thinking...how did you know that"..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BV, this is going to come as a surprise to you, It comes with age and the realization that men and women want the same thing, they just use different words for it. Physically, they often express it differently.

What is one of the things you enjoyed with OM? Let me guess, you enjoyed being held, or hugged? Why? Do you ask your H to hold you? Do you walk up to him in the evening, and put your body against his, basically asking for a hug? Do you kiss him when he comes home?

Do you have a clue how much most men like to be touched and in physical contact with women? If you don’t you should understand that we do. Why? Because in our world physical contact usually means a fight. Men don’t touch other men, men if they are watching themselves don’t touch other women. This means our ONLY source of physical contact with an adult human is with our W. How are you doing in that department?

But, the point is that if you stop and look, men and women often want the same thing, so it is not that hard to figure this stuff out. Plus another piece of good news for you, your H is very likely to become more romantic, and more passionate as he gets older because the sex drive in males does decline and thus the urgency is fading, leaving the joy of doing it right. Ever read the poem, Rabbi Ben Ezra? One of the lines in it is very famous: “Come grow old with me, for the best of life is yet to see…” It is a response to the Rubiat of Omar Kyam (sp), which basically says “eat, drink and be marry for tomorrow you will die.”

My point is you have a lot to look forward to including a great romance IF, you allow it. It is up to you, to see your H in a differently light.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHO ARE YOU JL, I mean REALLY? How come you have this insight? You are serious, yet funny, straight down the line, yet not condemning, you seem to be a Christian yet am not sure, yet I feel I can discuss personal things with you?!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I am just a guy who stumbled onto this site over 5 years ago, and started reading and reading. Finally one day someone posted that just moved me and I responded although I was not sure I belonged here, and I have remained. I am neither a BS nor a WS BV. I came for other reasons. Perhaps that is why I a little different, but I am also older, married later in life than most, partied a lot as youth, dated many girls, and had a very enjoyable bachelorhood. I have a deep faith, but I feel it is my faith to guide me as yours must guide yours. I am a Christian as opposed to many other religions but have done some reading about other religions especially when much younger. I find more commonality than differences frankly, but religion and the power it has on people has always interested me.

You said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H understands me in that area. He has always felt sad he wasn’t able to help me achieve O in our marriage yet we did read books, see the doctor, have counseling etc etc, but I never really understood what it was or how to get it despite all our efforts.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, “efforts”. They were “efforts” to you, but not to your H, BV. I think if you viewed it as pleasure, and more importantly pleasure that is scripturally supported because you are H and W, then you might relax and enjoy it. There is a part of me that says you ought to submit to your H completely and allow him to enjoy you as he will. My guess is that you will find that he will do this by doing his best to please you, and if you were to ‘surrender” to this, and gave him feedback you just might get where you want to go.

The other approach is the opposite. You take control, and tell him exactly what you want, when you want it, how you want it, and see how that works. I don’t know the extent of your willingness to experiment to try new things, but you might find your H enjoys doing this for you as well, and it frees you from worrying about pleasing him for awhile.

My point is that sex can be very pleasurable, and it should be. Take a good shower or bath together and there is little that you can imagine doing that is dangerous, dirty or harmful. Just be open and honest with one another. But, mostly it is still a mindset issue.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I knew it was something that God created me to experience in my life, yet I gave up on trying to find out how in the end.[quote]

So you gave up on God then. It is not really your H, but perhaps your faith. Is that why OM seemed so attractive because he was leading you back? Strange things BV.

[quote]Will be totally honest with you as I am trying to get help on this. OM and I never went ‘all the way’. Nearly but didn’t. Did do other things though, and did find him a passionate and emotional L in that way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! You are learning, passion is NOT about the sex so much as it is the attitude, it is about opening yourself and thus your emotions to someone, the sex is just the ultimate physical act, but it does not even have to go to completion for you to feel passion does it? Are you confused yet, think about what you have said about your H, how he has stood by you, how he as talked with you, how you have told him things that have hurt him, and yet… Don’t you think you could trust him with your emotions? Do you need to see his?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know I can achieve O because H and I bought the ‘digital’ thing..However, my ‘mind’ seems closed to him in a ‘passion’ sense still. (As I said to you earlier, even when I got married I just never explored the passionate side of me’)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not sure what you mean by the “digital” thing. I was talking about hands and fingers, but whatever, if it works use it. The more you will be able to reach the O, but you know what, your last statement is really the issue. It is not the sex, it is that you still worry about being seen as vunerable, as someone to be embarrassed about, as someone your H will not accept or respect. That is the problem with the passion isn’t it? It is not the O.

Your H is NOT your father, he is NOT raising you, he is sharing his life with you, he is your friend…your closest friend, and he is your lover.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now I feel I am in the highly dangerous state of only OM arousing these feelings in me, because I experienced them for the first time with him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I sort of laughed at this one. It may come as a surprise but I hope it doesn’t that all people that marry are not virgins. Many have had physical and emotional relationships before, the marriage is not with 1st love. Yet that does not negate the value of marriage, nor should it the passion. It is not so important where or when you learn something but that you do learn it and then use it properly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you can make some sense of what I am saying JL, I would really appreciate your thoughts and help still.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I understand but I will leave it with you to decide if I actually did make sense of this.

Ky said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In my book it says a man is more fulfilled Sexually when he fulfills his partner, a man is looking to always fulfill her.

Go with this.... Allow him to please you, show him how, he wants to know.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KY AND BV, in my book you would be completely and totally right. You two have NO IDEA how cool it is to have your W smile in contentment, or truly get into and enjoy, yes even lose a little control. It is what this is all about in my mind.

Hope this helps BV.

God Bless,

JL

BV,

If it were me I would start with touching him, giving him a peck on the cheek, perhaps a full on kiss every now and then. I would start with thanking him for things he does around the house, for listening to you, for being your H. When you thank him, touch him, hold his hand, give him a hug, if you are feeling frisky a slap on the b**t. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Start there BV. Then ask him for a massage, let him touch you, gently completely, and relax as he does it. Thank him, kiss him, touch him.

You have mentioned many great qualities in your H, not to mention he does work to support the family right? Thank him for these things everyday and mean them. Smile at him, and you will see him light up. hug him and you will see his heart melt.

BV, the problem you have is that have enormous power in this relationship to make another human being not only happy, but YOURS forever, and you have NOT used it. You have NOT decided to enslave your H's heart as you could easily do. You have NOT decided to enjoy your H, as a friend, husband, father, lover, and trusted confidant. Yet he is ready and willing to be all of them.

You keep thinking it is the sex, but the good sex will come when you have a good relationship, when you two are open. I doubt that there is anything you two could discuss that was/is as painful as your betrayal of your marriage and your H, and you have already discussed that, so why not feelings, sex, being friends.

You feel you are the victim here, that somehow someone else: me, your H, your God, has to fix this, but you hold the power. You can be your H's lover if you decide to and it is a decision not a feeling.

You took marriage vows that said you would love your H forever. I know I have mentioned this before, but the love you vowed was a VERB, an action, NOT a feeling. You want your H as a passionate lover, then love him passionately, and that starts by realizing that although he is human, and has no doubt failed as we all do, he is willing to go through what is often described here as the "fires of H**L" for you.

It is time you decided to be his W and lover, and not the victim. It is a choice, and you have a huge amount of power here. Try it, you will be surprised.

Think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Dear JL,

I can’t sleep so am doing a couple of posts before hopefully dozing off, Thanks for your reply.

It was very interesting, to hear you are not WS/BS. Are you a counselor by trade? Its just that I remember something to your posts on Hope, that ‘your job is helping people etc)

You said

“What is one of the things you enjoyed with OM? Let me guess, you enjoyed being held, or hugged? Why? Do you ask your H to hold you? Do you walk up to him in the evening, and put your body against his, basically asking for a hug? Do you kiss him when he comes home?”

Yes, all the things I COULD be doing with my H I did with OM. It is back to this ‘passion thing’.. OM aroused it, H didn’t (my fault in not working on that over years though). Being the ‘passionate/free spirit’ etc etc was EASY with OM because he was the same with me, and the chemistry was there.

It goes back to what I recognize in myself from what you have posted previously to me:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I saw sex as something which was ‘part’ of marriage but not that important
I looked on it (selfishly) as the way to get my precious children
I looked on H as ‘just a husband’ NOT AS A MALE
I didn’t look on Him as a lover just provider and friend and safe companion
I wasn’t willing to persevere and ‘bring’ the real passionate me to him

These things are what I have learned about myself JL through your posts and insight into my situation. and it is a scary thing to confront myself with the actual ‘realities’ of what I am like and my mindset. It is like I have seen myself for the first time ever…. That frightens me in a way. I guess I have been a very selfish person. Just taking in my marriage (re the sex bit) just for the children I wanted…

“Do you have a clue how much most men like to be touched and in physical contact with women? If you don’t you should understand that we do. Why? Because in our world physical contact usually means a fight. Men don’t touch other men, men if they are watching themselves don’t touch other women. This means our ONLY source of physical contact with an adult human is with our W. How are you doing in that department?”

I score ZERO in this department. No I don’t have a clue. My husband always had sex on mind I guess when I wanted to just cuddle so I tended to withdraw a bit from that area over past years even. I still did, but not as much.

“My point is you have a lot to look forward to including a great romance IF, you allow it. It is up to you, to see your H in a differently light.”

I really want to believe that, but I guess it will take loads of time and effort if I want this to happen.. I know I can’t buy anything that will quick fix this for me. Am just nervous and scared and apprehensive.


“I knew it was something that God created me to experience in my life, yet I gave up on trying to find out how in the end.[quote]

I never gave up on God or my faith, just myself in the area of ever thinking I could have an O.

OM was attractive because although ‘older’ he brought out the passion that had been dormant in me without much effort it seemed…

“Ah! You are learning, passion is NOT about the sex so much as it is the attitude, it is about opening yourself and thus your emotions to someone, the sex is just the ultimate physical act, but it does not even have to go to completion for you to feel passion does it? Are you confused yet, think about what you have said about your H, how he has stood by you, how he as talked with you, how you have told him things that have hurt him, and yet… Don’t you think you could trust him with your emotions? Do you need to see his?”

Yes. You have caught me on that one..I am learning that passion is not so much about the sex as the ATTITUDE and emotional side. I know I can trust my H with absolutely anything to do with me. Yes I am confused with myself.
I thought you were referring to ‘digital thing’ as an ‘aid tool’ which you can buy from shops to help in this O thing. I bought one and that is the first time I have experienced O. It never seemed to work in the digital way you meant.

Your H is NOT your father, he is NOT raising you, he is sharing his life with you, he is your friend…your closest friend, and he is your lover.

My husband said to me once, he was sad because he thought we were living more like brother and sister than H and W. (I was in height of A) then so had no answer..I was completely in FOGLAND at the time.

“If it were me I would start with touching him, giving him a peck on the cheek, perhaps a full on kiss every now and then. I would start with thanking him for things he does around the house, for listening to you, for being your H. When you thank him, touch him, hold his hand, give him a hug, if you are feeling frisky a slap on the b**t. ”

This is hard JL. Hard because I would be doing something I don’t’ FEEL and I know I sound a horrible person for saying that. Thanking him I don’t have a problem with as he needs to be thanked. He is wonderfully caring.. I know I have to do something, as I just wont move on if I don’t.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to me. (How do you do it …You do have to make a living)… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sorry I was joking about the fact that I have heard you post that phrase “I do have to make a living” a few times, (tongue in cheek here, no offense intended!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Kas

JL.... "My point is you have a lot to look forward to including a great romance IF, you allow it. It is up to you, to see your H in a differently light.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BV...."I really want to believe that, but I guess it will take loads of time and effort if I want this to happen.. I know I can’t buy anything that will quick fix this for me. Am just nervous and scared and apprehensive."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pep ----> This can happen WAY faster than you think BV. Not requiring "loads" of time and effort.

Sincere consistant effort is enough .... This is not "rocket surgery".

It does require you ~release your fear of rejection~ by your H.

There is a certain amount of internal, negative, self-critical head talk you allow yourself to listen to when you are intimate with your H, correct?

This habit is easy to turn off.

~~Open your eyes during sex~~ and don't close them! REALLY! Look deeply and unblinkingly into your H's eyes, and imagine you are making love to his SOUL.... this stops self-talk that is so non-intimate.

David Schnarch talks about "Eyes Open Orgasm: Making Contact during sex" .... chapter 8 in his book "Passionate Marriage".

The thing is ... with eyes wide open and looking INTO each other, the intimacy flows both ways.

Quoting Schnarch: "Will you let someone really know you? Be with you? Not just inside your body, inside you? Will you let someone love you?"

"You have to be open to the inherent intimacy and eroticism, open to being seen, felt, and tasted emotionally."

"The eyes-open orgasm I am discussing is an invitation for your partner to look inside you."

Pretty sexy stuff.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ June 29, 2004, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pep, I think I need a cigarette. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

KY

BV,

I thought I would make some comments in response to your post.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">“If it were me I would start with touching him, giving him a peck on the cheek, perhaps a full on kiss every now and then. I would start with thanking him for things he does around the house, for listening to you, for being your H. When you thank him, touch him, hold his hand, give him a hug, if you are feeling frisky a slap on the b**t. ”

This is hard JL. Hard because I would be doing something I don’t’ FEEL and I know I sound a horrible person for saying that. Thanking him I don’t have a problem with as he needs to be thanked. He is wonderfully caring.. I know I have to do something, as I just wont move on if I don’t.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don’t feel like touching him???? Well, perhaps you should consider how he will feel if you do. I am not talking about sex, I am talking about just reaching out and giving his hand a pat, a peck on the cheek and a smile. I am not asking you to do this for yourself, I am asking you to do this for him.

BV, passion starts with caring. Instead of focusing on you, or your OM, why don’t you do something really really different, try helping your H. You start by listening to him tell you what he is struggling with, what he fears. You would do no less for any woman in your church but you will not for your H. I can assure you that your OM got to you this way because it is an effective way to build the bridge. But, in your case it serves an additional purpose, it may actually help your H survive this.

I know he is being strong for you, but he is doing it at a great cost to himself and eventually his heart will harden, and many of life’s joys will be lost to him. Don’t take that away from him along with your love. I know you are in withdrawal, but you have a dear friend who is very hurt. If you want passion, if you want to even be able to look at yourself in the mirror you need to step back and look at who needs help here. It is the guy trying to help you.

You also said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My husband said to me once, he was sad because he thought we were living more like brother and sister than H and W. (I was in height of A) then so had no answer..I was completely in FOGLAND at the time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you have an answer now? Do you see that he was fully aware of what he had lost and wanted back? I don’t know your H, but I suspect if he mentioned this to you, he was missing you far more than you realize even now. Ask him that sometime.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes. You have caught me on that one..I am learning that passion is not so much about the sex as the ATTITUDE and emotional side. I know I can trust my H with absolutely anything to do with me. Yes I am confused with myself.
I thought you were referring to ‘digital thing’ as an ‘aid tool’ which you can buy from shops to help in this O thing. I bought one and that is the first time I have experienced O. It never seemed to work in the digital way you meant. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, it is good that this did work for you. It will work in the digital way I meant IF you will talk to your H and tell him what you like and then give it time.

You also said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> “Do you have a clue how much most men like to be touched and in physical contact with women? If you don’t you should understand that we do. Why? Because in our world physical contact usually means a fight. Men don’t touch other men, men if they are watching themselves don’t touch other women. This means our ONLY source of physical contact with an adult human is with our W. How are you doing in that department?”

I score ZERO in this department. No I don’t have a clue. My husband always had sex on mind I guess when I wanted to just cuddle so I tended to withdraw a bit from that area over past years even. I still did, but not as much.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you score ZERO in this department, then try some experiments with your H. I am a scientist so I love experiments, but in this case I am pretty sure I know the results. When you next talk to H, put your hand on his arm and watch his eyes. When you don’t have anything to say and just sitting with him, put your hand on his hand, and feel the his response. Then just move your fingers around on his hand and feel him relax. If he seems agitated during a conversation, before answering, put your hand on his arm, shoulder, hand, or even touch his face (no fair going lower <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) and watch what happens. Do these things BV and you will learn some very very important lessons about your H.

Your H will always have sex on the mind that is how he was designed, but instead of withdrawing, when you want to cuddle do that, and engage him don’t with draw. You will see a different reaction. You don’t realize many things about your spouse that is clear, but it is time to learn. Start with these things and then you can move on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">“My point is you have a lot to look forward to including a great romance IF, you allow it. It is up to you, to see your H in a differently light.”

I really want to believe that, but I guess it will take loads of time and effort if I want this to happen.. I know I can’t buy anything that will quick fix this for me. Am just nervous and scared and apprehensive.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you mean “if I want this to happen”. Are you planning on leaving with OM? Do you plan on finding a replacement for your H? You are still in withdrawal, so you cannot quickly fix this and frankly you don’t have a clue about how much damage you have done to your H and your marriage. You don’t have a clue how lucky you are, but let me assure you, that you can drive your H to end this marriage if you decide to. You are closer to that than you think. What you don’t realize is that you can drive the marriage the other way, so what are you scared of, what are you nervous about? Your H has seen the worst and he is doing his best. If you ever decided to turn lose the large majority of who and what you are, you will find you are indeed married to a man that has a passion for you. Why? Because inspite of what you have done, HE KNOWS, and it is clear from talking to you that you are a good person capable of love and yes having a passionate marriage. It is just up to you to decide what is going to dominate your decisions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">“I knew it was something that God created me to experience in my life, yet I gave up on trying to find out how in the end.

I never gave up on God or my faith, just myself in the area of ever thinking I could have an O.

OM was attractive because although ‘older’ he brought out the passion that had been dormant in me without much effort it seemed… </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for taking the time to reply to me. (How do you do it …You do have to make a living)… </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, sometimes that is an issue. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


I must go, but I hope you get some sleep and that this helps.

God Bless,

JL

Dear JL & Pep too,

Thank you both for your replies to me. (How do you both manage to ‘give out help so much on this board to people)? You give up a lot of time and your replies show that you really read and understand what posters are actually asking you?

Well, thankfully I hope I am getting over my ‘pouty’ and ‘flip’ initial reaction stage (pep!!) which means I can get on with ‘seriously’ understanding what you guys are saying to me on this subject…(I did have to smile when Kyellow4 said she needed a cigarette!!)

Pep. You said…

“There is a certain amount of internal, negative, self-critical head talk you allow yourself to listen to when you are intimate with your H, correct?”

I guess I would have to admit you are right in one way. Not aimed at him though, but at myself..I think I am a ‘failure’ because I can’t seem to have an O except with an ‘aid’.. I know he is sad because he feels he is failing me, but I told him IN NO WAY is it his fault. (by the way, only been having O’s for a few months since end of Feb when actually got up enough courage to buy an aid from shop)

Quoting Schnarch: "Will you let someone really know you? Be with you? Not just inside your body, inside you? Will you let someone love you?"

"You have to be open to the inherent intimacy and eroticism, open to being seen, felt, and tasted emotionally."

Wow… seems Schnarch has something on this subject. That is right and I must get the book. I understand what he is saying here, really I actually do. Up to now have just let H ‘inside’ me but have NEVER let him inside ‘ME’ ie the REAL me, the inner me, the passionate side of me..even the spiritual me, thought we are both Christians.

You see, the trouble is I DID let OM…He came inside the ‘ME’ the real ME, the passionate ME, the heart (even though this sounds like fog talk) of ME, as a person.

I understand now (so please bear with me pep), why then I am having such a struggle in withdrawal… It is because of letting him in me in this way, that I FEEL he is part of the REAL me. I gave OM that side of me NOT H, because passion aroused it from OM, so he never even had to try much really..

So, that leaves me then at square one doesn’t it? I have a slate that is marred. I need to cleanse that slate and start again re-directing focus from OM to H in this ‘inner side of me’ in order for me to achieve that same ‘bonding’ as it were with the man I should really be having it with right?

Wow. I am stunned at this realization of it all.

I don’t know where to begin in such a major re-thought process because it goes back 20 years to when I first got married.. I never did let H see the real M. Not intentional then though, just never thought of it in such a way. Boy I wish we could have had pre-marriage counseling in the way I am getting it now. I wish the books were there too. Keep posting me pep on this please? Are you able to say that book helped you too? Am going to order it in a minute. I am still trying to get hold of a copy of torn asunder.

JL, you said to me before…

“Start there BV. Then ask him for a massage, let him touch you, gently completely, and relax as he does it. Thank him, kiss him, touch him.”

He does massage me with lovely oil (my suggestion a few months ago), and it is relaxing and lovely, but still doesn’t arouse any other feelings in me though?

“You don’t feel like touching him???? Well, perhaps you should consider how he will feel if you do. I am not talking about sex, I am talking about just reaching out and giving his hand a pat, a peck on the cheek and a smile. I am not asking you to do this for yourself, I am asking you to do this for him.”

Do you want me to be honest with you JL? You are right. I am ashamed. I don’t feel like touching him. I don’t deserve him. I know that. He is hurting, but I am not reaching out to him. I feel ‘nothing’ . Not his fault in any way.

I want to learn though. I want to reach out. I hope you can see this as a ‘start’ for me.

“You feel you are the victim here, that somehow someone else: me, your H, your God, has to fix this, but you hold the power. You can be your H's lover if you decide to and it is a decision not a feeling.”

I remember the title of a book once “Love is a feeling to be learned”… I accept that you, my H, Pep, even God cannot fix this for me. You can all give me advice. I can digest your advice. Unless I act on your advice I will not move forward.

God can heal me emotionally. Unless I accept his forgiveness and move on in my ‘self forgiveness’ thing even God cannot help me.

It comes down to me, my decisions, my choice, my step forward.

Me being my H’s lover instead of just ‘companion’ is a choice I have to try for, even though I feel nothing in this area. I have to learn it. I never learnt it the first time round so I have to learn it now.

BV, passion starts with caring.

That is true JL. That is how it started with OM. However with H and my M, I always cared from the beginning but I should have worked on the passion side.

BV, passion starts with caring.

True. I would. Yes OM did get to me in this way.

I know he is being strong for you, but he is doing it at a great cost to himself and eventually his heart will harden, and many of life’s joys will be lost to him. Don’t take that away from him along with your love. I know you are in withdrawal, but you have a dear friend who is very hurt. If you want passion, if you want to even be able to look at yourself in the mirror you need to step back and look at who needs help here. It is the guy trying to help you.

I want to learn. I have nothing in myself to give unless I learn it because I don’t know HOW. I am at a loss. I have no feelings. I feel terrible for saying that. I feel the pain I have caused is too much, and I don’t know how to start fixing it, when I have no feelings.

What do you mean “if I want this to happen”. Are you planning on leaving with OM? Do you plan on finding a replacement for your H?

I meant ‘if I want to move forward in my M’.. Leaving my H was never on my mind nor OM’s. I confess to my shame I wanted both. Honestly, please believe it is to my shame I confess that.

Hard to put it to me that way JL, but no, I am NOT looking to do what I have done EVER again. I would rather God strike me down now if so.

KY AND BV, in my book you would be completely and totally right. You two have NO IDEA how cool it is to have your W smile in contentment, or truly get into and enjoy, yes even lose a little control. It is what this is all about in my mind.

You have said before you are neither WS or BS? Have you always had ‘passion’ feelings in your M or did you have to learn it? Your W obviously looks on you as a L, and I do appreciate your help (also indirectly for my H), for me to look on him in the same way your W looks on you.

Did you have to learn yourself?

Hope you don’t mind me asking.

Thanks both of you.

Am in all day today tidying the house, and doing a few posts.

I do look forward to hearing from you both soon,

Kas <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Well, thankfully I hope I am getting over my ‘pouty’ and ‘flip’ initial reaction stage

Baby, I am a "girl" too ... and I am raising a "girl" (she's 15 in 2 weeks) ... so I TOTALLY get the female pouty-thang... coz "been der done dat".


Wow… seems Schnarch has something on this subject. That is right and I must get the book.

It is one of my all-time favorite books. A classic.
He is bit didactic, but worth the effort.

"Up to now have just let H ‘inside’ me but have NEVER let him inside ‘ME’"

This is NOT unusual.... Most marriages begin this way .... read Schnarch to understand why. It has to do with a reflected sense of self.... and risk-taking of intimacy.


You see, the trouble is I DID let OM…He came inside the ‘ME’ the real ME, the passionate ME, the heart (even though this sounds like fog talk) of ME, as a person.

And, THIS is why you could release and relax with OM erotically and not your loving H....

What do you have to lose if your H "sees" the real you .. the emotionally naked you .. and rejects that person????


.......... you could lose everything. The life you've created, the family, the social standing.

What did you have to lose if the OM rejected the emotionally naked you?

.... not much. An illicit affair, OM was a "safe place" to be unguarded because you did not and do not have a "~life~" together. This makes him low risk for rejection.

I FEEL he is part of the REAL me. I gave OM that side of me NOT H, because passion aroused it from OM, so he never even had to try much really..

And that percieved freedom to be the non-wife-lover, was NOT because of OM's unique qualities .... NOT AT ALL..... but because the ~situation~ it'sself was freedom .... freedon from possible rejection. What do you risk sexually in the midst of a secret relationship with no connection to who you are in "real life"

Nothin'.!

No one is "part of you" that is a misconception of intimacy that Schnarch discusses. This is called a "fusion fantasy". Story-book stuff. "You complete me" garbage.

Imagine the chains of dependency in a "you complete me" relationship. Where is the opportunity for individual growth and movement in such a relationship? There is none, because if the person who "completes" you needs to move a bit in order to grow as a person.... you will HOWL because a piece of yourself just fell off.... and you then do whatever it takes to not allow that partner their growth because it is percieved as damaging!!!


So, that leaves me then at square one doesn’t it?

Nope. Not at all.

You discovered something .... you've discovered you are cheating yourself out of true intimacy within the confines of your marriage because you are not sure your H would accept the wildly SEXY woman you are inside.

This is NOT NOT NOT NOT about OM .... this is entirely 100% ALL ABOUT YOU and your fears of rejection by your H and what you stand to lose if you allow your H to see you emotionally, spiritually and erotically NAKED.

I have a slate that is marred. I need to cleanse that slate and start again re-directing focus from OM to H in this ‘inner side of me’ in order for me to achieve that same ‘bonding’ as it were with the man I should really be having it with right?

Right. And you need to recognize the risk of NOT doing this.... ready....?

The risk is you lose your integrity. Schnarch does such a great job of discussing this.

If you REALLY want something sexually by your husband, and you do not voice that desire due to some fear you might be seen as shameful, dirty or down right weird by your H .... then you suffer the loss of your integrity to be the real YOU in the most intimate situation possible.

YOU are standing on the edge about to discover an amazing part of yourself.

You will dig deep and find the courage to be REAL with the man who presents the greatest risk if he rejects you .... your beloved HUSBAND.

You have NO idea what joy is going to befall you once you take this risk.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ June 30, 2004, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

BV,

reagarding you struggles with being physically intimate with your H. the best advice i can give to you is to stop thinking about how you are feeling about it all and think about how your H is feeling when you touch him. i think JL was saying the same thing.

for me, although our SF was pretty lousy pre-A i still always desired H. even during the A, i was still intimate with my H (something that bothers him, he cannot understand this at all, not sure if i do or not.) i admit that there was a long time when i didn't get much physical satisfaction out of it but i still really wanted to give to him. but it was also frustrating because i didn't feel any desire on his part for me to feel good. and that hurt.

with OM, we were both in it for our own reasons, we were both actually selfish in our actions because we were both in it for what we wanted for ourselves but we were willing to do whatever for each other in order to make it a win win situation. we were upfront out it and it worked.

for me, what i wanted more than anything was to be told how good it felt when i was giving, how wonderful i am, how effective my actions were. and i wanted to be held and kissed intensely and a lot. and i wanted to be told how much he enjoyed watching me feel good too. he would tell me to have an O for him and that would just drive me nuts.

OM didn't mind taking the time to hold me and kiss, he knew he would be get what he wanted too. i felt so frustrated with my H because he didn't seem to enjoy me. I almost never had an O pre-A with my H, BUT i faked it a lot!!! talk about unfair to H, he had no clue. part of me thinks well he should of had a clue!!! but when i am being more rational, i realize that is unfair, i am the only person he has ever been with, (although i didn't know that until about 2 yrs ago) if i am not being honest with him (by faking it) how is he supposed to figure it all out.

but at the time it was just easier to fake it, than to try to tell him what i needed because i figured a person cannot explain that what you need is for the other person to enjoy them more and to want them to feel good too. that seems to be something that a person has to decide on his own. but the point i missed is, perhaps H did enjoy me and did want me to feel good, he was just not good at communicating that to me.

anyway i did have a point here for you, which is... focus on the pleasure you are giving!!! i swear it is a simple as that. do things that you know must feel awesome and focus on that. that is what sex is about, at least in my boat. sometimes i get closer to having an O when i am just full out giving even if i am not being touched one bit than when i am recieving, because when i give i am feeling my own desire to give him pleasure. and i can control that amount of desire. and the more i put into it the better it feels for me too. i have a problem being on just the recieving end, i have this internal talk that wont shut up, it tells me H does not really want to be doing this. not just since the A, before then too. I think that was primarly caused by his lack of desire to kiss me as well as how he does not ever look at me. he has told me i was too difficult to please, he may have only said it once, i'm not sure, but the damage caused by him saying it just once was pretty big. i never think H is too hard, i enjoy the entire time, the longer the better, that just means i get to give longer and i like that.

i didn't have any internal talk with OM. I knew what he was in it for and i knew he was smart enough to know how to keep a good thing going (for himself that is). he figured out what i wanted and he was sure to deliver cuz he wanted what he got in return. we were not about 2 people wanting to give to each other out of love. we were 2 people who made a deal. and set up a fantasy world where we could make good on the deal. plain and simple. but not intimate and not real!!!

OM also kept me company. when we were not together, we chatted so much through out the day, both our jobs had us on the computer. we literally had a chat window openned all day and would just randomly talk between working. that was another HUGE need being filled for me. what did he care, he was bored at work most of the time, it is so easy to have a online chat. you say something, the other responds but you don't have to read it till you are ready. there is no real big demand happening there.

ok, i think i am rambling too much now.

don't know if anything i said helps you. i do hope you find your way back to wanting to give to your H. when you do that, passionate feelings will be there.

pep, i love your posts (i needed a cigarret from the one from yesterday too!!)

your message is good for me too, i know this is not the right time to talk to H about SF issues, but when the time comes, i hope i can do all you suggest here.

FL

From what I can tell... you and your H have a relationship where both of you do not have the personal integrity (read courage) to put it right out THERE in FRONT ....

what you need
what you will not tolerate

and you both are hiding from each other

Ask yourself this: "Why do I *need* H's weaknesses?"

Your H's weaker issues are part of the attraction for you .... see if you can work this out...

I am being purpously obtuse. So don't ask me what I mean. Journal this question forward.

Schnarch might be eye-opening for you.

Pep

Hi all,

I am new to this thread, but I though I might chime in.

I agree that arousal comes from giving. The more you give the more you are willing to receive.

My problem is that before the A, I somehow had lost my willingness to give to my H. When we had sex it was always great but I never initiated and he didn't either because he was afraid of being turned down.

The interesting thing about the A for me was that it was a sexual wake up call. It wasn't so much that he made me feel irresistable, it was that I could resist him and I liked the way that made me feel. So in a way, I have gotten back in touch with my sexuality. I guess it was just lying dormant for a while.

Unfortunately, now that it's awakened, my M is a mess. Although my H doesn't turn me down, I also know his heart isn't in it. Now he is holding back.

I am deeply in love with my husband and the A has made me realize that even more.

BV, I feel for you. I believe it will get better though if you just try. It is going to require a lot of work on your part, but it sounds like you want your M to work enough to do what it takes. The passion will come with time and learning about each other and what drives each of you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am being purpously obtuse. So don't ask me what I mean. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ha, that is exactly what i was thinking as i read it!!!! along with why do you think H lacks integrity????

ohhh, ok, now i get the "read courage"... by integrity you really mean courage...

ok, i do see what you are saying and it is a good thing for me to reflect on more... why do i need H's weakness? the quick response is.. makes it easier for me to do the same...

Dear Pep,

Before I post my reply to your post today, please can you adivse me which of these books to get?? I have just been on Amazon to order one but don't know which one is best? Can you let me know asap?

Thanks

Kas


1.
Resurrecting Sex: Solving Sexual Problems and Revolutionizing Your Relationship
~David Schnarch
Quill
Paperback - August 1, 2003
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2.
Passionate Marriage: Sex, Love and Intimacy in Emotionally Committed Relationships
~David Schnarch
W.W. Norton
Hardcover - April 1997
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3.
Resurrecting Sex: Resolving Sexual Problems and Rejuvenating Your Relationship
~David Schnarch
HarperCollins Publishers
Hardcover - August 1, 2002
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4.
Passionate Marriage: Love, Sex and Intimacy in Emotionally Committed Relationships
~David Schnarch
Henry Holt
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5.
Secrets of a Passionate Marriage
~David Schnarch
Sounds True
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6.
Constructing the Sexual Crucible: Integration of Sexual and Marital Therapy (Norton Professional Books)
~David M. Schnarch
W.W. Norton
Hardcover - August 1, 1991
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I'm sure Pep will be along soon...

but the book she is referring to is #2 or #4 Passionate Marriage.

They are both the same book, one is hardback, the other paperback.

Blessings!
Susan

Susan is correct.

Dear Pep,

Thanks for replying to me today. Whilst I am waiting for your advice on which book to get, I will get on with posting.

My eldest daughter is also 15 in a few weeks. I guess she learns from her mum (me) about the pouty thing… You said:

“And, THIS is why you could release and relax with OM erotically and not your loving H....

What do you have to lose if your H "sees" the real you .. the emotionally naked you .. and rejects that person????”

the crazy thing is I know absolutely 100% my husband would NEVER reject me. He is simply not a rejecting person. I guess that might make you all feel ‘what is this crazy woman on about then’… You see I have a husband who:

Is committed to me

Loves and adores me

Sees me in all my mistakes yet still loves and adores me

Counsels me and listens to me and ENCOURAGES me to talk about my feelings for OM in order for me to move on and be healed

I have complete Freedom to do whatever I want to do in sex

He will do whatever I want to do in sex no matter how long it takes for me to have an O

I can hear you all perhaps asking then, “what in the world made this woman have an affair then?”

Infact, my husband told me himself he knows why I did and he blames himself (though I won’t have it)

1. He admits he was caught up in ‘his own’ things such as his speaking ministry and preparing stuff to speak on and his studies

2. As a result, he realizes I felt neglected and not noticed

3. When I had my hair done or new clothes on, he didn’t comment (not intentional, just oversight on his part he said)

4. He gave the impression he wasn’t interested in what I was doing

5. He didn’t ever suggest taking me out (it was always me who suggested)

6. He said he ‘assumed’ I was happy so let things just drift on

7. he admits he should have really listened to me in the past when I was trying to say about going to a ‘marriage weekend’ or something to ‘learn more’

8. The whole thing became a Lack of communication which started to open up a blank void in me.

In comes OM… He notices how I look and comments on it. He listened to me. He talked and communicated with me. He made me laugh and smile. He was interested in what I was doing.

My focus starts to change and instead of walking away from a potential ‘A’ in the making, I let myself into it and (please forgive me for being direct), I felt the void in me start to almost disappear (fog talk I know, but reality at the time)…

All the above is what my H says himself to me. I am not making or excusing myself from blame in any way.

You see. Emotional needs and communication started to be deposited by someone else and I responded big time..

Infact, it was OM I feared of rejecting me in the end, not my H, because it was OM meeting my ‘needs’ as it were, and I simply didn’t want to lose that..

No one is "part of you" that is a misconception of intimacy that Schnarch discusses. This is called a "fusion fantasy". Story-book stuff. "You complete me" garbage.

I definitely had this ‘fusion fantasy’ if that what it is called. I had it very very bad. I felt that OM completed the ‘real inner me’ because he was the one who was meeting my needs.

Imagine the chains of dependency in a "you complete me" relationship. Where is the opportunity for individual growth and movement in such a relationship? There is none, because if the person who "completes" you needs to move a bit in order to grow as a person.... you will HOWL because a piece of yourself just fell off.... and you then do whatever it takes to not allow that partner their growth because it is percieved as damaging!!!

Absolutely right. I was in a ‘dependency chain’. That is why withdrawal is so hard.

You discovered something .... you've discovered you are cheating yourself out of true intimacy within the confines of your marriage because you are not sure your H would accept the wildly SEXY woman you are inside.

Yes, I am cheating myself and H out of true intimacy, but not because I think H wouldn’t accept that ‘wild sexy side to me’’. He longs for it. I know that he does. He wants to see it.

The problem is with me. I don’t feel passion so how can I give passion?

I don’t feel I want to ‘let go’ with him because I am afraid…of myself I guess. What am I afraid of? Making too much noise, losing control, I don’t know what I am afraid of but I know I am afraid of something. Added to the fact of not feeling passion for him in that way, and I feel I am a hopeless case to start off with (actually I feel like a non starter) A loser before I have begun anything so to speak….

You have NO idea what joy is going to befall you once you take this risk.

I want to experience this but I have two obstacles to overcome ..

1. My lack of passion feelings for H
2. My fear of something (tho I don’t know what)

With your help perhaps I can make it??

Kas <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Ps will send this post first then reply to others

Just a taste of Schnarch... quoting:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

People whose identity is primarily dependent upon their relationship don't facilitate the development of those they love. They lose their identity when others change.

(Schnarch was asked this question) If I'm not my feelings then who am I?

Many people assume we are our feelings. It sounds validating and accepting of feelings, but it creats other problems.

If you identify with your feelings, that is, if you get your identity from your feelings, then you can't afford to have them change. You'll feel like you won't know who you are. When you have a stable sense of self, your feelings can come and go like the weather.

Highly differentiated people have strong emotional bonds. They don't require physical distance, infrequent contact, or totally consuming careers to maintain their separate identies or moderate their reactivity to others. Just the opposite. They can chose contact with others out of deep liking, without being compulsively driven toward them or away.

When you've reached a high level of differentation, your view of conflict in relationships shifts dramatically.

"What I want for myself versus what you want for you"
shifts to
"What I want for myself versus my wanting for you what you want for yourself."

If you talk your partner out of what he or she wants so you can have your way, you lose. When you participate in the agendas of those you love and sacrifice out of your own differentiation, it enhances your sense of self rather than leaving you feeling like you have sold yourself out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

end quotes..

I take awhile to get the flow of his language and his thinking.

Pep

Dear Susan and Pep,

I have just ordered the book on the Passionate Marriage you recommended, and also bought the other one (no. 3) – “Resurrecting sex”, and also managed to finally get a used copy of “Torn Asunder”. It cost a lot in postage, because they are all being shipped from USA but I think they will be worth it don’t you….

I guess I have some reading to do now when they come…

Well, I have to log off for a bit but will come back later.

Just wanted to say thank you so much all of you.

Thanks so much FL and I agree with you that this must be a start for me:

“regarding you struggles with being physically intimate with your H. the best advice i can give to you is to stop thinking about how you are feeling about it all and think about how your H is feeling when you touch him. i think JL was saying the same thing.”

“with OM, we were both in it for our own reasons, we were both actually selfish in our actions because we were both in it for what we wanted for ourselves but we were willing to do whatever for each other in order to make it a win win situation. we were upfront out it and it worked”

This is very true and very painful to actually realize for me.

“OM also kept me company. when we were not together, we chatted so much through out the day, both our jobs had us on the computer. we literally had a chat window opened all day and would just randomly talk between working. that was another HUGE need being filled for me. what did he care, he was bored at work most of the time, it is so easy to have a online chat. you say something, the other responds but you don't have to read it till you are ready. there is no real big demand happening there.”

I am in withdrawal and missing him I will be honest and open about that to you all.

You have helped me a lot. Thank you for your input. I will come back later.

Kas