I had been lurking on your threads for a while but really stopped posting because I am getting frustrated with your un-MB-like actions. The forum is great and you are getting help, but are you following the MB principles? You are moving along doing hte same things month after month, getting the same results, month after month. You want him back, but not willing to Plan A or Plan B. Are you doing ANYTHING to try to get your M back? No, then you say you don't know if you want it...then what...

Bingo. Hit the nail on the head as for how I feel about all this. I've almost stopped posting here because I don't feel like I belong. But I need all you guys to keep me going and focused, so I haven't gone away yet.

I am not necessarily NOT doing a Plan A except that I won't let him move back home. Look at it as a boundary. I have done a great job not LBing except for the one $ argument a couple nights ago. I let him rant and I don't bark back at him. When he is at the house, I fix meals. I fixed a meal last night even though he ended up not showing. I took him to the doctor. I loaned him my car while on vacation. I float him on the child support when he's short of cash. I try and offer advice when he asks that will help him. I really am trying to be as easy to get along with as I can be, while not dropping my boundaries of not coming home until the requirements are met.

But no, I haven't done a Plan B. I guess at this point it's because it's really not painful to remain in contact with him, so saying it was would be a lie. And many have told me that Plan B isn't necessarily to end the A but to ease the pain for the BS until the A dies a natural death.

On my last counseling session with Jennifer, she said this one would probably have to die naturally.

My problem now is that my love for my WH as a spouse is basically non-existant.

Would it have been preserved had I done a NC Plan B? Maybe. But I was so afraid of the pain I was feeling from worrying about him and still hoping good things that seeing him in his true light, not caring about anyone but himself, for these last few months has helped a lot to burst my fantasy bubble of who he is. I don't want this person back this way. Had I done a Plan B and been missing him dearly, and then he said last week that he wanted to come home, I'd have probably believed him. However, watching his actions over the recent past and then having him say it says he's not really ready, because he's still seeing her and still drinking.

I don't really know what I'm saying.

If the general concensus is that I should remove myself from this board because I'm not doing good following MB principals, let me know and I will. I don't want to screw up others.

LL

LL -

I'm sorry about your daughter's behavior. How worried you must be about her.

I don't know much about MB, but I do know you need to break all contact with your H. Get him out of the house, and keep him out. NO Contact. Your children are being seriously affected by all of this. Your daughter has no respect for you because you have no respect for yourself or for your childen right now. You are keeping a home where choas is allowed to live. You have to go to Plan B, whether you ever want him back or not.
You are part of the disease of alcoholism, and so are your children. It will gravely hurt all of you if it is allowed to run your home.

LL, I know I grew up in it. And now my parents are dead and I haven't seen my brothers in five years.

You've got to do this now.

I really like you, you remind me of me. (Well you are a little younger than me but who's counting)

I just read your last post. Don't go. I'm not even married and I'm here. In fact I was at one time an "OW", so if anything I shouldn't be here.

Once your husband is gone (and I mean gone) and has gotten sober and worked a program your feelings for him might change and you might want him back, but if you don't than that is okay to.

But you need him out of the house, now and competely no contact.

Weav

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong>

If the general concensus is that I should remove myself from this board because I'm not doing good following MB principals, let me know and I will. I don't want to screw up others.

LL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think you should go anywhere. Your posts give us great insight into the inner workings of an alcoholic family and how useless Plan A is with an alcoholic.

And I have long accepted that you don't really want to improve the situation so will find 295 excuses about why you CAN'T work the MB program. It's really quite amusing. But that is ok, there is no law that says you have to get better.

It really is your life and no one elses. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And I don't say that derogatorily, LL, I think the world of you and don't want you to go.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I should also point out that you have had tremendous growth over the past few months and are starting to show very positive signs of the beginnings of self respect and even BOUNDARIES.

I think the more your self respect grows, the more you will EXPECT from others and I can see some of that bleeding into your relations with your H. You are starting to see how abusive he has been and you don't like it.

So while you may not be using the MB program, you most certainly are showing amazing personal growth.

I hope it didn't sound like I thought you shouldn't be here, I know you get great support being here. I enjoy reading your story, and you are getting stronger and stronger. Keep it going, but I will still nag you about Plan B...it's what I see will help in this situation. As a matter of fact, I won't even say it any longer I'll just say "You Know What I'm Going To Say" YKWIGTS.

Okay, I'll settle down again. I have just felt somewhat guilty for continuing to be here when I KNOW I haven't done the best job with MB principles, and then what SHMI said sort of hit home and I thought maybe it was time for me to exit.

I sometimes feel like everything I touch or get involved with gets messed up, and I don't want to mess up others' lives.

Mel, I know I'm the master excuse maker. But I think you have realized that I don't want the chaos back. I may not have become non-codependent yet, but it's the absence of the disrespect from WH and the relative calm in my house (except for DD's antics) that is a very big motivating factor in keeping him from moving back.

I know I lack self respect. It's always been an issue, and I further struggle because I get self-respect and pride confused. I don't want to be proud; I want to be humble. But I have to remember that doesn't mean letting myself get walked on. Still a LOT of work to do there.

I will continue to consider Plan B. I know it probably would be best for WH. For me, I don't think it matters and might actually cause more pain because I really don't have all that much right now. I'm functioning fairly well. I've gained back my weight. I'm just in limbo and feel rather trapped sometimes by not being able to move on and not being able to go back either.

The traditional Plan B letter would be a lie at this point. As I said, it's not painful for me to stay in contact anymore, because he's not living at the house so it's not in my face. If I were to ever consider going dark, how would I even approach it?

LL

LL, yes I do realize you don't want the chaos back, which means sanity is breaking through the fog here. I think it confuses you, and like you said, you sometimes confuse normal and necessary boundaries with hubris. But you are getting there.

The purpose of Plan B is twofold, BTW. It is intended to help end the affair AND to protect the BS from the destructive behavior of the WS. So just the fact that the affair doesn't bother you is not a valid reason to rule out Plan B. Staying in Plan A too long is just as bad as not going into Plan B.

Plan B would be very helpful to your H because it would remove his security blanket and wake him very quickly. In your case, Plan B would serve a third purpose in that aspect.

But we have gone over this territory ad nauseum and you have heard it all before. No need to cover old ground.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong>

The traditional Plan B letter would be a lie at this point. As I said, it's not painful for me to stay in contact anymore, because he's not living at the house so it's not in my face. If I were to ever consider going dark, how would I even approach it?

LL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't send a Plan B form letter, you write one that is appropriate to your situation. However, I see that you are becoming more and more disgusted with him as time goes on and distance has allowed some semblance of sanity to break through. It seems that your love for him is eroding and that most certainly is a good reason to go into Plan B.

Oh my gosh! This is so exciting. LL might actually DO a Plan B!

I am going to pop some popcorn, get a big drink of something with caffine in it, and watch this drama unfold.

Go Melody! Go LL! Go Melody! Go LL! [and I'm also doing the cabbage-patch dance, and chanting to the rhythm of "Go girl, it's your birthday"]

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> SS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Oh good grief, guys. Do you realize how long it's taken me to get to this point?! Do you realize how long it might take still to get me to do a real Plan B??!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I'm asking the questions. I'm not ruling it out. But SS, you better not lose sleep over this tonight. Not much chance it'll happen by tomorrow.

(Though SS, that dance you refer to sounds quite entertaining! Wish I could see you do it!)

Part of me is afraid that if I do a Plan B, it might scare him and he might come running back with all sorts of promises, and then I'd feel obligated to take him back and try and make this work.

Then I'm afraid that just like all the other times in our lives when he's made changes that only last a short period of time, these would erode, too, and I'd be right back in a mess again, though maybe without an A, which would mean I was stuck with no biblical justification for leaving.

See, now I'm getting to the heart of the matter. I currently have biblical justification for not going back if I choose not to. But if he gives up OW and I take him back, and then the drinking and the cursing and the anger and disrespect all come back, I still have to remain M to him or forever remain unmarried, per my beliefs, because he's no longer unfaithful--the only biblical justification for D and remarriage.

And he was able to go 12 years between A's. But he was NOT able to keep all those other things under control during that time.

See my concerns?

LL

Okay I was going to log off but now I have to be a pest again.

LL, In your Plan B letter state that one of the conditions is SOBER plus actively working a program, preferably AA, and working that program forever. If that stops then it is a "DEAL BREAKER".

The affair at this point is secondary, it is a direct result of his alcoholism.

And if you have to stay married to him for the rest of your life then all the more reason to do this NOW.

This isn't about HIM it is about you and your kids.

(sorry now I'm going to log off)

Well, yes, I was thinking more along the lines of the proverbial popcorn and drink - the caffine symbolized the long-term aspect of how you move forward.

But, that is part of your charm! And, you DO move forward. That is the important part. I love you. I'll wait. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SS

<small>[ June 24, 2004, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

Dear Lordslady:

I have read your thread and -as a pediatrician- I have to talk to you about your 14 year old daughter. I have worked in the adolescent clinic in a rough area of NYC during my residency. I have seen a lot, believe me.

The problem with these out of control teenagers is that they loose the respect for their parents. Their life quickly deteriorates into skipping school, drugs, sex, crime.

You have to stop her. You HAVE TO. Do you hear me. One approach is to cut off the money...along the line: you are home at 10 PM or there is no more money for you. As long as you eat in my house and I pay for you, you do as I say.

You have to be extremely firm here. Contact the school or your pediatrician for help. Lock her up in a facility if you have to, but do not- DO NOT continue to enable this outrageous behavior!

Once she ends up pregnant, she is an emancipated minor and out of your control.

Don't ask her at midnight when would she consider to show up at home. Make it clear that she has to check out with you before she leaves, tell you where she is going and be back at 10 PM (or at 14 years old maybe 9 PM the latest!)

Did you talk with her about birth control. Does she know how to protect herself?

You love your daughter, I am sure. Please do not continue to tolerate her behavior. She will end up in huge trouble.

Okay logged back in.

Iceprincess - please talk to her about the affect of what her husbands alcoholism and her willingness to accept it is doing to her daughter also. Everyone here seems to keep by bassing that like it doesn't really matter. It is just as/if not far more detrimental to her and her childrens ability to live a happy life than her husbands affair and I don't think anyone see's that.

Okay, about my daughter.

We did discuss birth control. I hate to even admit she's sexually active because it is so against what I taught her, but I told her I wanted her on the Depo shots. She refuses. I can't force her to take them, can I? I don't trust her to take a pill daily.

Second, she is not losing respect for me, she has lost it! It's gone! I have no idea how to get it back.

I don't really fund her financially other than to put food in our house. She gets no money from me unless I agree with where she's going and usually this is also when I'm taking her and picking her up. But we live in a fairly affluent area (we are NOT affluent) and her friends fund a lot of her things. She has also stolen $ from my purse in the past.

I asked her this afternoon not to go anywhere tonight. When I got home from work there was a note saying she'd gone to a show and would be back by midnight. How do I stop this? I'm not even sure where the show is--probably somewhere downtown.

I'm very scared she'll get pregnant. I don't want her raising a child, and at this point in my life, I don't want to raise another infant either (nor can I afford it).

That's the issue. I don't have a savings account. There isn't money to put her in a treatment facility somewhere. It costs $1000's to do it. The only way I could would be to do a CINA petition and turn over temporary custody to the state. Having seen how well that worked with my niece (NOT!), it's not something I want to do.

I would love to make her obey me. Teachers weren't able to in her HS, thus she was kicked out and ended up in the alternative school (which worked better). Law enforcement can't even seem to scare her. We have her in outpatient therapy right now, which is the only thing my insurance will cover because she's not suicidal.

I am aware that a lot of her (and her brother's) lack of respect for me comes from my WH's lack of respect for me and for anyone but himself. He didn't back me up with the respect issue. If I said, for example, that they couldn't watch a certain movie because it was R-rated, he'd wait until I had to travel out of town and then he'd rent it for them. Stuff like that.

He knows I disapprove of DD's smoking, so recently when he picked her up from school, he bought her a pack of cigarettes. She thought it was pretty cool that Dad would do that for her and asked me why I wouldn't.

I'm not sure at 14 years old, that there's much hope of my regaining her respect. She's at a very independent age and is very strong-willed and defiant and very much shares the personality of her father. I also see her having an addictive personality if she's not careful.

My son is more like me in personality--more emotionally expressive, more cautious overall, very competitive. DD really doesn't care what she achieves or how she does it, as long as the end result is her having fun.

I have a migraine I'm fighting tonight so am not going to continue to ramble on. I'll give Plan B some thought. Might talk to my pastor, too.

BTW, in my mind, the affair is still the primary issue, because it's what made him leave his family and it's the thing that groses me out when I think about it and what he does with her. The other stuff is much easier to get past and forget about when/if it ends.

Having SF with someone who has given you a detailed description of OW's naked body and how it differs from yours is not an easy thing to deal with, nor is remembering that statement he made some months ago about how he can make her scream and crawl across the floor. Icky! I am not that, but I'm afraid, based on the types of porn he downloads, that this is what he needs in order to be excited. It will be difficult and take a lot of putting my mind in a "happy place" to ever be intimate with him again, even if we do get back together.

And then there was all the talk from him about how he needed to be able to pursue this to see if it was what would make him happy. So if it doesn't, I win him only by default and whose to say when the next lucky lady shows up, he might not give the "happiness" thing a try again? I mean, when I talked to him in the beginning about our vows and how we said "forever", he told me he guessed I took my vows more seriously than he did.

And his mom/dad are D, his sister is, all his mom's siblings are, and about half of his dad's siblings are. And his dad/step-mom's M is the result of an A. Not a good M history going there.
Apparently no one in their family takes the vows very seriously. I was always hopeful that WH would be the exception to the rule, but right now it's not looking promising.

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> Okay logged back in.

Iceprincess - please talk to her about the affect of what her husbands alcoholism and her willingness to accept it is doing to her daughter also. Everyone here seems to keep by bassing that like it doesn't really matter. It is just as/if not far more detrimental to her and her childrens ability to live a happy life than her husbands affair and I don't think anyone see's that. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Weaver, just to give you some background, this is well covered ground with LL. That is why she has made this a condition of his return. I am very aware that the real problem here is his alcoholism. While LL may minimize that problem, she does know it is the main issue.

But believe me, we have not overlooked it, there are endless posts to her about it. I am a recovering alcoholic with 19 years of sobriety so I do know that the adultery is only a result of his alcholism.

Thank you Mel, for telling me that. I just decided that this thread hits way too close to home for me and decided to stay off of it. I kept logging off and then coming back in tears. I lived this for so long too, and it is so heartbreaking.

I apologize for not researching before jumping to conclusions based on this thread only.

Weaver

Weaver, its perfectly understandable that you would be upset because you wouldn't possibly know about previous threads. I would be upset too if I thought we were tip toeing around that elephant. Please don't leave the thread, though, I think she could use your input.

Guys/gals, NEVER think I don't appreciate all your input, even if I don't like what I read. And it does help to have the perspectives of others who understand alcoholism. I've lived it for 23 years with my WH--he's been a heavy drinker since I met him at 15. But until that time, I had NO experience with it. Neither of my parents drank and alcohol wasn't even kept in the house. That's why for years I didn't really admit that WH was an alcoholic. He didn't fit what I understood the typical alcoholic to be. He is able to hold a steady job and function rather well overall, so I denied it for a long time.

I am very stubborn. I have to really buy into something before I'll do it. It's also very hard for me to make decisions and yes, I have that self-respect problem. So I have some issues to deal with myself, but if I look back at my earlier posts, I do think I've done a little better. I have a coworker who tells me she sees a lot of change in me since this all started, too, even if I don't always see it.

Again, thanks for all your input.

LL