P.S. I had 19 years of sobriety on April 27, 2004 because my H loved me enough to say: AA OR THE HIGHWAY. He told me if I drank again EVER, he would drive me to the bus station, PERIOD.

I sure as hell did not want to quit drinking. Are you kidding? But the alternative was much worse: to lose my H and my 2 boys and be placed on a bus home to my mother.

But you better believe I would not have EVER given up drinking without that motivator and I assure you I did NOT want to quit. If not for him, I could have gone on for another 5-10 years until death or jail stopped me. Instead, my H stopped me....out of LOVE.

You see, LL, something WILL stop your H, I promise you. It will be YOU, or it will be death, prison, or his employer. Take your pick.

I think he's getting dangerously close to it being his employer who makes the first ugly move. They are not happy with him at all. They know what he does. They've taken a lot from him over the years but when they stop giving quarterly bonuses, you know they're angry. And he didn't get one last quarter, for the first time since the early '90's.

This scares me to death because if he loses his job, I lose my child support and I can't afford the house on my own.

And of course I'm very scared that he'll die. Right now, I don't necessarily want to be married to him, but I have this fairytale vision where he finds God again and quits drinking and gets his life in order and I breathe a sigh of relief and go on my way.

What if I end contact, he does quit drinking, and then I decide I really don't want him back because I don't feel I can ever trust him again? How cold is that?!? (guaranteed--he'd start drinking again and I'd blame myself forever)

LL

ps... The above comments DON'T mean I won't do a Plan B, they are just questions I'm raising...

LL

Hi LL -

What if you don't do plan B now and he keeps drinking and kills himself? If he can do this now while he is still young he has a chance at a life. Your children have a chance of having a father who is whole and there for them, and who may very well be there for them when they have there own children.

LL - you don't ever have to go back with him if you don't want to. His drinking is not your fault, however you have the power right now to stop this insanity in your own and your kids life. He may or may not quit drinking when you Plan B, he may be on a roller coaster of drinking/drugs for the rest of his life.

But this is a chance you got for you and your childrens sake. For you to have peace and be able to focus on yourself and your kids, and for your kids to have a dad.

You don't have to ever go back with him. You are becoming happy and you deserve whatever life you choose. God wants you to be happy, don't you ever doubt that. And so does everyone else.

Remember what the doctor told me "YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE HIM BACK!"

Take care okay LL - I have to go now but saw you were on so wanted to talk for a minute.

Weav

I can't do a Plan B until after June 30 for sure. That's the day WH gets possession of his new apartment. He is going to take a couple pieces of furniture from the house and needs to get his stuff out of the garage that he dumped there when he moved out of his last apartment.

I'm guessing he won't actually be able to move until next weekend, since he doesn't have a truck of his own now.

And I'm waiting on him to reassemble the rear door panel of my car that he took apart before I went on vacation. He was supposed to fix the window and change my oil while I was gone, in exchange for getting to stay in the house for a week and drive my car. Didn't happen. I've text messaged him and asked if he can do this tomorrow or Monday.

If those things happen, then pretty much everything is taken care of with the exception of him reimbursing me for what he owes on the credit card. I need to get that figured out. It's several hundred dollars that I don't want to be stuck with.

I still question whether from a financial aspect it would make sense for me to consider filing for legal separation or D to protect myself financially from his dangerous behavior. But if I did that, would it mean I wasn't trusting God to take care of me? A number of people are pushing me to do this, saying if he changes we could always get back together and remarry.

Lots of questions tonight. Going to quit thinking and go mow my yard.

I did go to the art festival today, btw. The downtown farmers market is in the same area, so spent a couple hours there and then went on over to the art festival.

It was sunny, breezy, low 70's and just gorgeous here today. It's the first year in a long time it hasn't been scalding hot at the festival. I spent the entire day browsing, eating yummy food, and, uh..., spending money I shouldn't have spent.

But I now have the very first piece of "officially" signed limited edition framed art I've ever owned. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I like it. I rearranged my bedroom a while back and now I have a big blank spot over my headboard. I think it'll look wonderful there.

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong>

What if I end contact, he does quit drinking, and then I decide I really don't want him back because I don't feel I can ever trust him again? How cold is that?!? (guaranteed--he'd start drinking again and I'd blame myself forever)

LL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if, what if, what if, what if? You have your hands full with WHAT IS, LL. You don't have time for futile "what if" diversions.

What if, what if, what if, what if?

I'm an accountant. What-if's are what I do, and I do them darn well. I can come up with all sorts of scenarios to work through. However, it is a negative when it comes to my personal life, I know. I frustrate myself! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I do want him to quit drinking. I want him to be alive for himself and for the kids, even if we don't end up together. I'm just thinking forward from Step A to Step B, if it happens, and trying to decide how I'll deal with it.

Melody, you know me well, so you know that it's a lot easier for me to procrastinate and spin in a circle than it is to make a decision.

I'm trying to do the right thing. When he asked if he had to leave when I got back early this week, I said yes. That was tough, because I feel sorry for him and I worry about him. But I respected myself enough to not let his feelings override mine for a change.

I am seriously entertaining the Plan B idea. You read my Plan B letter earlier on this thread, didn't you? I made a couple recommended changes and I have it saved and ready to go. I just can't do it until he's in the apartment and has his things back out of the house.

And if I do, I will try my very best to keep contact to a bare minimum, will try to keep it to text and pay CLOSE attention to caller ID, and will make sure it involves kids or finances only. (And since he sees the kids rarely and I already know how much per week to transfer for child support, the only issue would be if his check amount changed or he didn't make his deposit on time.)

If he sells the camper as he's trying to do, I will have to see him at least once, to sign the title and take care of the payoff of it and the home equity loan.

I think I am in a much better position to go to N/C now than I was back in May, since graduation and the vacation are now over and since DD isn't back in school and requiring Friday transportation from him until late August.

LL

Well, I agree that you are in a much better position to do Plan B, but you aren't quite there YET. You have grown leaps and bounds EMOTIONALLY since the beginning of the year and don't seem so addicted to him. In fact, sometimes I hear pity and almost revulsion. That, IMO, is some sanity breaking through.

I don't think you are there YET, though, LL, and you really need to commit FULLY to Plan B when you do. None of this "I will try." You have to be able to say "I will." Otherwise it is a waste of time, especially with a manipulative addict. He knows how to work you over pretty good, ALTHOUGH, I have to say that his antics are not nearly as effective on you as they used to be!

You know what alcholics in AA like to say? They complain about how Alanon screwed up a "good thing" for them because Alanon teaches the spouse to not fall for the addicts manipulation schemes anymore.

When you are READY to do a PROPER, full-a**ed Plan B, come here and we will help you. But I mean PROPER, LL. None of this "I will try" or limiting contact to text pages nonsense. It's go all dark or nothing. Don't waste your time on an ineffective modification.

[bloodpressure SOARING] Something else that is really bothering me. HOW DARE HE BRING THE OW INTO YOUR HOUSE? If you don't address this OUTRAGE with him, I will personally drive to Iowa and open up a can of Texas whoop [censored]!! You tell him that is OUTRAGEOUSLY disrespectful and you do not appreciate him bringing his sleaze into your home with your children. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

[/bloodpressure OFF]

Okay, so as not to have you bursting a vein or something there, Melody....

He did not bring OW into the house when the kids were here. They were with me in Florida. Only the dogs and cats and turtles were home.

Granted, he was told not to bring her here at all, and told not to have her in my car. He did both.

He swears he just brought her briefly when he let the dogs out on Sunday. My guess is that she was here more than that, but it's irrelevent.

Re: Plan B--I don't have an intermediary. His friends are not my friends and vice versa. I know ideally it's supposed to be no contact at all. However, without an intermediary, I'm sure there will be times when a quick text about kids or money will be necessary, though I see it as only an occasional thing.

I'm trying...really...but there are very few others on here who have stayed totally dark, either. Give me just a tiny break. Please? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

LL

LL...you have been going on and on so long...when are you ever going to do a plan B?

Look...i did not do a good plan B...it took a little bit of fallin until i got used to plan B. Maybe for some people they can do a total darkness period from start to finish but i could not. I keep trying to save WS...of course nothing works.

Listen to ME..What i am trying to say here is that you need to let WS go...you CANNOT save even the nicest and kindest man in an affair...they are stuck in this fog...the fog will only go away when the time is right and nothing you do now will get it off.

It is time you think of yourself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Plan B works to lift that pain away from your eyes so you can see better. Get into plan B even if you break along the way. You can fall off plan B...just make sure you get back on the wagon okayyy. Eventually after a period you will feel much better with yourself.

The panic attack will lessen. I have been doing so good since my last fall. These last two weeks were the best of my life so far this year. I feel free and happy again. Sometimes a whole day can go by without me having those panic attacks. The thoughts about WS are also less now and i do not have that feeling of wanting him anymore.

Give plan b a chance. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm trying...really...but there are very few others on here who have stayed totally dark, either. Give me just a tiny break. Please? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right, LL, Plan B is hard. It is hard when you are 100% dedicated to that course of action. I believe that is what ML is trying to communicate to you. You don't have a snowball's chance if you go into it with a hearty, "I'll try."

Keep keeping on. You'll either get there or you won't. Those are your two choices. You have the added risk that you are dealing with someone in the throes of the addiction to the OW, and addictions to any other mind-altering substance.

I really hope and pray that you can look inside yourself and find that lady I see so often here lately - and be able to do what needs to be done.

SS

<small>[ June 27, 2004, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong> Okay, so as not to have you bursting a vein or something there, Melody....

He did not bring OW into the house when the kids were here. They were with me in Florida. Only the dogs and cats and turtles were home.

LL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LL, that changes nothing. How outrageously disrespectful for him to bring her into YOUR HOUSE. He hasn't a shred of respect for you and needs to be confronted.

Zizzy,

Actually, I haven't had panic attacks or really wanted him since about mid-April. I can actually pinpoint the turning point and the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back, but won't go into it here.

I know I haven't exactly been doing Plan B, but I've distanced myself enough so that I'm past most of the pain. The only pain now comes from watching what he is doing to himself.

If I do a real Plan B, it's probably more for him than for me at this point.

SS,

"I'll try" is really a good statement from me. It's much better than "we'll see" or "I'm not sure".

It comes from not wanting to promise anything and then break a promise. I don't trust myself to always pull off what I say I will, so if I say "I'll try", I feel better about it. I'd rather set expectations low and then exceed them than set them to high and fall on my face.

I still fully intend to give a Plan B all that's in me if I do it. I'm not trying to worm my way out of it.

Melody,

He HAS been confronted. Not face-to-face, but was on the phone. He knows I was not happy and was deeply disappointed. But he's in a fog. It didn't seem to matter much.

And yes, it was very disrespectful. Goes along with everything else he's done that has been disrespectful over the past week even after he said he misses me and the kids and wanted to come home.

His actions do a good job of keeping me from getting blinded by his words.

LKL

<small>[ June 27, 2004, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong>
I'm trying...really...but there are very few others on here who have stayed totally dark, either. Give me just a tiny break. Please? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

LL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't have another break, LL. You did this the last time and just completely blew your credibility. It will take some real action on your part to prove to him that you mean what you say.

And you are dealing with a master manipulator here so it is even more imperative that you go TOTALLY DARK. "I will try" ain't going to cut it; keeping communication to "text pages" won't cut it. What do you need an intermediary for? Your kids are almost grown and can handle their own visitation. You can handle finances in the Plan B letter.

See, this is why I think you are not ready. You are still looking for a million excuses to break NC before you even go dark! Wait until you are ready, ok?

<small>[ June 27, 2004, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

LL..... a corner of MY life.... Take a peek....

Our 18 year old son graduated from residential living treatment out of state in April...

We set him up in a sober living arrangement about 10 miles from where we live....

Yesterday, we learned from the sober living house manager that he found booze in our son's things... and the house rule is "72 hours kicked out" ....

So, all night we expected to have a sad phone call from 18 year old WS (wayward son) "Mommie, are you saying you want me to live out on the streets?"

The guilt trip is VERY powerful , especially when out of the mouth of a child.

Mr. Pep has 8 years sobriety ... and he keeps me from becoming the rescurer...

We are not responsible for our 18-WS's drinking. He owns his choices. He chooses to live on the street for 3 days when he chooses to break the rules (if that is where he is, which we doubt)....

Watching someone you love hit bottom is no fun...

And, believe me, "their" bottom is never as shallow as you think it's going to be.... sometimes they have to lose "everything" before they change their thinking.

But, I wait, I pray, and I do not enable .... with the help of God, Al-Anon, and my Mr. Pep to hold me back when I become soft and "motherly".

Pep

Melody,

I wasn't ready to do Plan B back in February. I knew that then and I really realized it after I started. I still thought I would die without him. I still could imagine nothing but us being together. A LOT has changed since then.

As for things I might expect to have to text on, you are right--the kids are teens (one is an adult) and so there aren't the visitation issues.

Here would be the things:

1) If DD took off and I had to get police involved (or if she gets caught shoplifting, etc), or if state gets involved in her care. Because he's her father and has been very angry when he's found out important things after the fact, I would keep him in the loop.

2) Our financial agreement is that I get x% of his net pay each week. Normally his net stays the same, but if he misses a day which he has with the kidney stones and such, it goes down. His employers rarely pay sick leave. Small company--they make their own rules. In these cases, I need to know so that I can adjust what I deduct.

3) The camper sale--obvious contact needed there. We have agreed on a minimum price to accept, but it's in both our names so we'd both have to sign papers to transfer the title.

4) College issues: I've never done this before so don't exactly know what to expect (or for that matter, how it's all going to get paid). I will try to handle as much as I can on my own, but something financial could come up where I need to involve WH.

Other than that, no, there is nothing I need to talk to him about. I really have no intention of making up a reason to text him daily, or weekly.

I truly am in a LOT different position than I was back in February.


Pep,

I totally agree with the not-bailing-out scenario, and also know it's the "mom" in me that blows that from time to time. (More with DD than with WH, though that's changing a little, too.)

I did take him to the urologist last Wednesday about his kidney, but because I wanted to hear what the Dr. had to say. Other than that, I've not done too much bailing. He got to use my car while I was on vacation and stay in my house (mistake, I see after the fact), but I also didn't have to find somewhere to kennel the dogs (one of which can be agressive to strangers) and didn't have to find a housesitter to take care of the other animals. It saved me a lot of money and worries. I'd rather worry about OW being in my house than worry about my dog biting someone.

When he rolled his truck and hinted about being able to use DS's car, I refused. Told him to rent a car. I've heard the whiny sob story about how he has no transportation when it rains (because he only has a cycle) over and over. I still will not bail him out.


I gave my Plan B letter to my pastor to take a look at this morning, and filled him in on the latest. I will be calling him in the next day or two to discuss it, but he is in agreement that it's the right thing to do, and also tried to impress upon me that "IF" WH makes the changes specified, it does't mean that all is well and we're back living together as H/W immediately. It's only an opening to discuss a possibility of reconciliation.

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LL..... a corner of MY life.... Take a peek....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> (((hugs)))

Susan

LL, thinking of you. I can't believe how strong you are becoming now. You are my example.

LL,

And that is exactly why I say you are not ready to go into Plan B. You are already concocting various excuses to break NC. Just like your did before, you had a new excuse almost EVERY DAY.

Parents handle college issues all by themselves in Plan B. BS's handle wayward daughters all by themselves all the time in Plan B. If he sells the camper, he can send you a check, and so on and so on and so on. Like I said, don't waste your time until you can come up with reasons why you CAN stay in Plan B.

<small>[ June 27, 2004, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

MELODY LANE....YOU ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your wisdom, insight and honesty you extend is amazing....

bought at the price of your own pain....
and here you are on the other side offering what you have learned as pearls of wisdom laid out in front of us.......

so blessed....are you....

and you lordslady...

you still believe that some how you have some magicaly powers that make you able to be responsible for any actions of your husbands...

his choice to use and drink are out of your hands...
always have been
always will be...

there isn't a thing you could do in this universe to be responsible for his choice...

and you cling to that belief consciously and unconsiously...

it's all over your posts...

you don't have that power...
I wish you did..
I wish we all did...

ARK