sprezz does not disconnect you from financial support....

what is trite about saying grownup to grownup...

your actions define your choices..

your actions hurt me to the core

I am choosing to not be witness to your actions...

if you don't want plan b...then what about plan a...
where you have NO relationship talk

and the samples are samples...

you still aren't choosing...

ark

ok- plan A when h is OUT and noncommunicative....do I call him and ask for a meeting or what? I really need some answers- the DARK/B idea IMHO ain't doing a thing for any of us.

PEACE OUT

http://www.san-andreas.com/mbladies/chat.php

that is ladies chat. if you go to java.com you can get enabled if you aren't java enabled already- ladies chat is a good place!

PEACE OUT

ok- plan A when h is OUT and noncommunicative....do I call him and ask for a meeting or what? I really need some answers- the DARK/B idea IMHO ain't doing a thing for any of us.

sprezz it's NOT the PLANS that don't work...


1. yep he left..but you still had contact...except for one week..so that IS NOT plan b...
so you can not say plan b does not work..
you aren't in it....you haven't done it...
he's had access to YOU the whole time..and even though he doesn't appear to want to talk..he likes the contact....

2. yep he left but you still had contact these past five weeks except for the past one..
and if during that time you iniated conversation no matter the tone about what his plan his..
what his choice is...what he is going to do..

that is NOT PLAN A...plan A is meeting his needs...even his need for no relationship talk.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Soooo if you want plan a...
then YOU contact him and say nothing about the relationship...
change the pattern of communication that you have had for the past five weeks..
which sounds like you contacting him...and you talking relationship talk...and him hanging up on you...

change that.....

you take him some trinket to work and give it to him..and leave....
cup of coffee...
a favorite dessert..something like that...and you leave it for him..

you are upbeat
charming..etc....

you do what you can to attract him to you...not you physically...but you emotionally and congnitevly...
you work on his complaints about you....

you maintain good control..

look at each conversation you have had for the past five weeks and figure out what he doesn't like..and change it..

he's not gonna answer any relationship question truthfully....
so quit asking him ..

you can choose plan a...and set a time limit..and go for it....

have no expectations at first...

ark

ok Ark, h works too far away for that. and otherwise I don't know where he is. I could track him down at a lawn in the evenings but that makes him BOIL. I did mail him some pix from our trip to St Thomas- no comment. but he doesn't comment on anything....... I do have some practical questions for him- like what to do with a car that has ins. due and I can't pay it and does he want to keep the car? the car is a sentimental thing for us- its "cherry" and was his beloved grandfathers. so- I can call him and say how are ya? but he won't answer...... IF he ever answers he starts right in about HIMSELF and I always say "hi honey how are you?" and make him stop for a second. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> so- should I tell him I've got it under control or ask him out to dinner??!

PEACE OUT

.... sounds to me like you need to read lostva's story... have you already?

Her H left and lived w/ OW for a long period of time.

During that time lostva maintained contact whenever she could by sending letters, cards etc. She was very loving and friendly in all contact and seemed to focus on just being a friend to her H. PLUS she worked on herself.

I don't believe she talked to him of coming back or saving the marriage... just what was going on in her life now, plus 'remember whens.'

That was her plan A.

I could never 'do' plan b sprezz... and I did write a plan b letter. plan b became my 'threat.' not a good thing.

If you want marriage, then your plan A is what st*rfish wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1) addressing ways you as a spouse may have contributed to the incompatibility and vulnerability of the marriage...whether that means hurting the other person, letting yourself go, withdrawing, or witholding whatever....you make an effort and show an interest in correcting those things. (that may sound similar to being the best you can be...but it's NOT the same thing. This about what your spouse needs...not you. 2) You use radical honesty to describe how the affair feels by confronting the spouse with what you know and how you know it. 3)You expose the affair to the light of day. Most affairs require secrecy, exposure can create great conflict within the affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like you have done it all, but if you want to stay in plan A from a distance... think about how you can do #1 w/ limited or no contact. lostva did it through letters and cards.

Cali

truth is sprezz with no disrepect intended...

you got an excuse for everything..

works too far away...what are we talking here....airplane distance...
too far away to work on marriage?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ...

plan b letters too trite....

you keep saying he won't talk to you...yet you allude to interactions..
so is it he won't talk at all....
cause you say he WILL talk about himself...and you stop him to ask about you...NOT PLAN A...plan A..if his need is to talk himself...in plan A you zip it and listen....

and is it that he does talk about other things...but you only want relationship talk...

I'm pushing you sprezz...
I'm challenging you to get real in your universe before you cast every suggestion off....

now is it no to plan a as well... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

ARK

Sprezz,

Step back and breathe. You want to fix it but it is not within your scope right now to do so and you are just spinning your wheels. Keep it up and you will put yourself in plan D from sheer exhaustion.

Now work on defining your boundaries. For me plan B included: Mail, $$ and chlid visitation. That's it. When the insurance thingy came up, I went and got him a new policy. Took the paperwork to OWs area and had a neighbor watch me as I put it in his truck (didn't want to be falsely accused again and at the same time now had a neighbor know why that 'truck' was parked in front of her house). Neighbor was real nice about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Communication from that point on was limited by me. I did not take all his calls. He felt the effects of plan B almost immediately. I expected it to take longer since I thought he w/b happy NOT to hear from me on a daily basis. In less than 2 weeks, he wanted to come home. Kept him out there a bit longer. That put him and OW at odds. Oh heck, OW was and is odd anyways. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

My point is you need to either do a full plan B. Anything less will make you appear enabling, wishy washy, etc. The A will then trample all over you and your victim status will rise to serious needing intesive care.

Now where do you want to be? Working on a large open wound one dropper at a time or giving it the proper amount of attention? Sometimes that amount of attention means NO ATTENTION/COMMUNICATION.

JMHo,
L.

BWT: He never signed his separate insurance policy and that's another story. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ June 28, 2004, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Thanks Cali- I can mail anything I want h to get to our address and it gets fwd. to him. twisted I know. but it works. I sent 3 prayers a few weeks ago-one that I pray for myself to be a good wife etc...one for h to pray for me about m and wife- and one I pray about his fatherhood. they are all from PRAYING WIFE/PRAYING HUSBAND. and I sent other things- he told my gf he gets my mail. "GOD CRAP". ok. I have a stack of cards all ready to go but that comment sort of put me off and the majority here seem to think plan B and I am no dang good at it and I don't think its working. days-weeks- whatever- it ain't good. I think it lets him off the hook completely- hes getting brazen in his actions. he tells NOBODY about this. I have been stuck 50-100 times in these 5+ weeks explaining where he is as best I can. family-friends-store clerks-utility companies-his JOB-his BOSS-you name them- I got the job. DISBELIEF is the winner of the reactions people have. NO WAY- why would he ever do that- all he does is talk about his great family etc....its all amazing. so.........??

PEACE OUT

Sprezz,

It is ok to tell family and friends you don't know where the WS is. Let them ask him the questions. It will take a lot off your shoulders.

L.

that particular car is in my name-titled. so insurance bill is MINE. we have joint policy but seperate-ya know? I own that sentimental heap but really its HIS and I own kids cars. he owns the car I drive and 2 trucks. same ins. co. and we get the group rate but cars are in seperate names- none held jointly and we get 2 seperate bills.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you keep saying he won't talk to you...yet you allude to interactions..
so is it he won't talk at all....
cause you say he WILL talk about himself...and you stop him to ask about you...NOT PLAN A...plan A..if his need is to talk himself...in plan A you zip it and listen.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok-I concede to this. he tells me I DON"T KNOW- about most everything. "I never gave her up- but don't want her- I am NOT on a vacation"- these seem to be R convos even from his side. so....how do I not respond in kind? what should my answer be after I say I am sorry you are so torn-how can I help you? we have a MC appt tomorrow- should I suggest he attend or not? call and leave a hi-how are you msg on his phone? suggest dinner?

PEACE OUT

Sprezz -

All these wonderful posts are a gift to you. Listen to ark. She has you pegged right now. You are spinning your wheels, as Orchid says. I have chatted with you, I have posted with you, yet you continue your chaos. I know it is hard to see what you are doing in these highly emotional times. That is why we are here, to guide you when you cannot see the path.

But, my dear, you are heading nobody, nothing. You are running wild and free through the forest, blinded by pain and confusion and probably low blood sugar! Listen to these people. You must find your path and get on it. As ark said, you can turn around, take an alternate route, at any time you choose. But right now, you are enabling that which you desire to stop.

He is feeding on your chaos, and you on his. Perhaps it puts you at a disadvantage that he knows the MB program. Mix it up a bit. Orchid had excellent examples. I myself was put into a type of Plan B by my H. You know what he greatest EN for me to meet at that time? The best Plan A thing I could do for him? NOT TALK TO HIM! H requested communication through email only, regarding kids and finances only. Period. The end.

At first that was very hard for me. After about 8 weeks, I had it down to a science. And THAT is when H started turning back to me. I thought I was a goner! How can I plan A or plan B someone who is setting all the rules, all the everything? Hm. By truly listening to what he was saying, and even though it hurt me and I didn't want to do it, following his request.

Perhaps that is what you need to do. Be dark. When HE initiates contact, be nice and wonderful. Then dark. I think you not contacting him, not encouraging him to contact, is where your focus needs to be right now. You have got to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. It is gut-check time, girlfriend! We can encourage, but you have to do the actions.

Come on, girl. Come on, girl. You can do this.

SS

Harley called- have an appt tomorrow at lunchtime. and the mail just came....the PO is not very good at sorting.....I got ALL of h mail again....it is supposed to be FWD'd to his PO box......nice touch. what are ya gonna do...guess I'll sort thru it and see what I need- ???

not going to call h today. waiting for my MRI results- doc office called at 8 this morning to tell me not good and would call again later- sheesh-thanks for calling. also have harley tomorrow and MC appt that I will go to alone.

can't thank you all enough for writing- you are are are helping me!! I'll be here...

PEACE OUT

I guess this falls under the category of 'anyone' responding LOL (Hey, I was REALLY encouraged to see something posted by ARK & Orchid & Spider Slayer! Beginning to wonder where they went with their good advice.)

I've noticed that you seem to expect/need an IMMEDIATE positive result from whatever you try.
You say or do something, but because it doesn't cause your husband to respond the way you want, you think it isn't working... Plan A is to be tried for 3-6 months, without expectation of any measurable progress on a day to day basis. Plan B sometimes takes months or even years to work. Sometimes the plans work much quicker BUT in those cases it's probably because the Plan is followed very consistently, so the WS knows your not just bluffing or manipulating.

You aren't really in any particular plan, although you have tried certain plan methods, because there isn't immediate success you keep switching methods and/or giving up. Please consider that the overall message your husband is getting is that you are even more confused and scared than he is AND that you are DESPARATE! He must also have gotten it by now that you are trying to manipulate him into coming home. Why would he take you seriously?

IMO you should just stop calling him. Even if you aren't ready to send a Plan B letter yet, to stick to Plan B for the duration, you should at least cool all contact for a while just to give YOURSELF time and space to BREATHE and THINK. You have to make a choice: Plan A or Plan B. And I think right now you're so confused and scared that you are losing perspective. Detaching will help you think more clearly. Let's face it, for now contact with him is just hurting you more. All he does is disappoint you by not reacting the way you want and need him to. At best, he just feeds you some occasional, vague encouragement to keep you hanging on without him having to make a commitment and get rid of OW. If YOU don't love and respect yourself enough to protect yourself from this hurtful contact, then it's highly unlikely that HE will!!!

STOP contacting him. Sit back, take care of yourself, settle down, come up with a plan, and THEN stick to it no matter what UNTIL EVENTUALLY it works. You simply have to stop believing that a quick fix is possible.

Right now he's probably relieved that he has little to no contact with you. If you contact him it will just annoy him and then he will say something to hurt you. At least leave him alone long enough for him to WANT to hear from you again. In a way, you want him to start feeling towards you the way you feel towards him right now... It is not to your advantage to try to negotiate anything with him now anyway, when he KNOWS you are so desparate and he has all the cards. Wait until HE is trying to sell YOU on the idea of reconciliation, when he is asking and offering. Don't discuss relationship stuff with him until then.

Here's a common sales tactic, to deal with a reluctant prospect: Withdraw the offer. Be unavailable to him. Be too busy to call him; better yet, be too busy to even take some of his calls. Be the first who has to hang up, because you are busy right now or have plans, or "just need time to think about things" before you say anything more. Right now you are pressuring him and therefore he's prompted to resist. Back WAY off and WAIT. Then when he contacts you again, you can do either Plan A or Plan B.

IMO inaction is better than inconsistent action or waffling. I have made the same mistake myself many, many times. I always felt better once I stopped bothering my WH and backed off. My self esteem and courage literally started to climb back up again within a few days once I was able to stop calling him.

The more you worry that he might not come back, the less he has to worry about being allowed to come home. It's like a seesaw, with you sitting all the way out on the 'willing to do anything to save the relationship' end so he can sit so far out on the 'he needs his freedom' end. SO maybe right now you aren't feeling enough self esteem or courage to get on his end of the seesaw (so he'd have to switch places with you and be the one trying to save the marriage). Some of us just aren't good at poker and/or are not that strong yet... But at the very least, get off the seesaw, so he has to move away from his polarized stance, scoot to the center, instead of counting on you to keep the reconcilation option balance. Stop showing him all your cards and let him wonder some. If you can't show him a poker face, then don't show him your face (expecially if it's tear stained).
If you can't sound casual and strong, then don't let him hear your voice.

<small>[ June 28, 2004, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The more you worry that he might not come back, the less he has to worry about being allowed to come home. It's like a seesaw, with you sitting all the way out on the 'willing to do anything to save the relationship' end so he can sit so far out on the 'he needs his freedom' end. SO maybe right now you aren't feeling enough self esteem or courage to get on his end of the seesaw (so he'd have to switch places with you and be the one trying to save the marriage). Some of us just aren't good at poker and/or are not that strong yet... But at the very least, get off the seesaw, so he has to move away from his polarized stance, scoot to the center, instead of counting on you to keep the reconcilation option balance. Stop showing him all your cards and let him wonder some. If you can't show him a poker face, then don't show him your face (expecially if it's tear stained).
If you can't sound casual and strong, then don't let him hear your voice. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I second all of that! That is what I was trying to say, and you did such a great job! Wow. I really liked your seesaw word picture, too. That is an excellent way of viewing this process.

Because, just as dieting takes time to see results, this process does, too, Sprezz. That is the purpose of a diet, or a Plan . . . proven to work with consistency over a period of time . . . not in one day or one week or one month.

Soak it all in Sprezz, you are getting excellent stuff here! Pull yourself up by your boot straps! I did, although I used my Burkenstock straps - not as easy, but I made it happen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> So can you.

SS

ps, I think it is very unprofessional for that doctor to call you and tell you the news isn't good, talk to you later. WTHeck????? Good grief. When it rains, it pours. At moments like this, just realize God must think pretty highly of you . . . because He knows that whatever He gives you, you can handle. That is how I looked at things when it seemed they just kept piling up and piling up. Just Breathe!

hey MM- well surprise. h didn't keep his word. said he needed a certain amt. out of check this week-I said ok and planned around it- we never did plan how he would get it- but he did ATM it AND some extra. nice. creep. but I got the mail today (sometimes God is IN the mail sorter?!) and some $$ h will be looking for and that took care of that. I cashed it and left some that will hopefully cover what he took EXTRA. grrrrr. he has no idea that what extra he took will cause HIS PERSONAL INSURANCE to bounce...oh well? I figured that automatic withdrawl of HIS into my bookkeeping/budget and he might have blown it. don't even know if he remembers that auto payment...and who knows if he thinks I will/am paying attn. to it?? theres gotta be a deeper word than FOG......what is it? stuff like this- makes staying "dark" much easier. taDUH. thanks for writing MM- you certainly qualify as more than just ANYONE! its so hard to name a desperate thread. but you all are helping me to get focused.

I know...FOCUS! if you chase 2 rabbits, both will escape........

PEACE OUT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">. SO maybe right now you aren't feeling enough self esteem or courage to get on his end of the seesaw (so he'd have to switch places with you and be the one trying to save the marriage). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and how do we switch seats??????????

PEACE OUT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MM said: SO maybe right now you aren't feeling enough self esteem or courage to get on his end of the seesaw (so he'd have to switch places with you and be the one trying to save the marriage).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and how do we switch seats??????????
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, see, you don't "switch." Your H isn't going to budge on purpose! Good grief. If it was as easy as just ASKING them to come to their senses, we wouldn't all be here! We'd be cleaning our houses or making dinner. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

YOU must move to a different part of the seesaw, which will FORCE your H to move, too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MM said: But at the very least, get off the seesaw, so he has to move away from his polarized stance, scoot to the center, instead of counting on you to keep the reconcilation option balance. Stop showing him all your cards and let him wonder some. If you can't show him a poker face, then don't show him your face (expecially if it's tear stained).
If you can't sound casual and strong, then don't let him hear your voice.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds to me, in that analogy, that a strict Plan B would shift everything around. Go dark dark dark. Give nothing away. Think of it as a childish game, if you must. Challenge yourself to be the darkest anyone has ever seen on these boards.

When an issue comes up you think you have to contact him about, take a REAL look at your motives. When I did that in my own sitch, I realized how little I NEEDED H in my daily life. Most things, with a little creativity and support from friends and family, I was able to do all on my own. And it gave me a sense of self I have never known before. I am an independant, strong, SMART, attractive, INDIVIDUAL, who chooses to be in a union with my H - because he chooses to be in that same union with me (and me only!).

This is a far cry from where I was before H left me. Very far cry. I struggled and resisted and railed against it every bit as much as you do. And then one day I surrendered to what WAS, rather than what I wished or wanted. Very powerful. You are seeking. You will find. You will.

Keep on keeping on. You are doing great. Take care of you. Take care of you. Take care of you. That is number one. Just like on the airplane, you must put your own oxygen mask on before you can help anyone else. You are such a wreck right now, even if H came home for good tonight, you are not ready. You say you want him to come home, but he would come to chaos. You must find your center. BE THE LIGHTHOUSE!!! I love that post. It is everything, all at once.

SS

h says hes gone forever-wants his things and OUT and ow............

PEACE OUT

Sprezz,

{{{{hugs}}}} Sorry the fog is sooo thick out your way.

R U ready to let the OW meet all his needs? Can you do a solid plan B?

Remember that the Ws general method of operation is NOT to be consistent. They make grand statements but find it difficult to follow through.

So you work on you and what you can control. Don't debate his statement. Let him go. Just nod a bit at the most.

When mine told me similar I learned to say 'whatever makes you happy will make us sad but if making your family sad makes you happy, go for it. I don't get it but I am sure the OP does, so be happy. Every time you look in the mirror know that the reflection of your sad family is in the background. So smile when you see our sad faces. Because that's what makes you happy.'

Babble that back a few times and see how confused it gets them. You may find that the real intent is to make you miserable and when they can't do that, they get frustrated and the A begins to unravel.


JMHO.
L.