OK, here is ark's WONDERFUL post that got me through some very tough times. To me, THIS is Plan A. Might not be very MB of me to say, so I could get into trouble. BUT, I remember when I was hurting so, and my emotions were flying around, this Lighthouse post made sense to me. Soemtimes, I couldn't wrap my brain around Plan A. Of course, it seems very straightforward to me now, but back then, it was so many words!

But the Lighthouse is like a story, not an instruction manual. It just really hit home for me. Hope it does something good for you, as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your spouse is in huge conflict....

the good news is and the truth is that they are totally incapable of a healthy relationship with anyone right now...

the competition we believe that exist with the OP is a shallow empty reflection of Gods light in this world...

It is empty and lonely no matter how good the rush

their actions are actions that they themselves do not like in themselves right now....though the need to go back again again and attempt to prove themselves wrong or right is strong...they do not like what they are doing...

their actions towards you, the children, the OP, and themselves...keep them from engaging in any type of real interactions...with real depth and truth

all they offer are misguided attempts to fill the void that has appeared in their life...
yet the filling is way too fleeting to sustain them and the truth is with them each night he or she lays down regardless of whom is next to them....

they are the living cliche..of no matter where you go to hide...there YOU are...

he or she is lost to themselves...

and you stand at that point of being the lighthouse home....even though they create the waves that block their vision from seeing that...

You become the lighthouse..you fill your home with light, calmness and sanctuary...

see just visualize yourself as a lighthouse...

Your offer them glimpses into that sanctuary at every chance you get...
you invite them towards it...let them know it is there as much as you can in a most subtle way....

they are untrustable right now...
but you know that...so they can't hurt you right now...they will spend great energy to convince others differently...but you know better...

you show the path by also protecting the children from their painful actions.....
set clear boundaries that the OP is not part of your childrens lives....
without lovebusting...
offer alternatives that let them see the children...but be clear that the OP is to have no access to them...
you fill the childrens lives with stability....they deserve it and need it more than anything else....

Do not discuss and or powerstruggle with them on irrational movements...seek out and validate the rational ones with lots of praise for when he or she chooses correctly....

your spouse is very lonely and sad right now..but that is OK...no one can stay very long in that chaos...it is wearisome to the soul...
and remove yourself from any aspect of participating or adding to the chaos...and eventually they will see that you are the only one...who stood with clarity and reason when they needed it most...


be the lighthouse....
OK that's really out there I know....

hope that helps

arkster </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hang in there, girl. You are doing GREAT.

SS

Heeheehee, edited to actually ADD the Lighthouse post! Duh! Good grief . . . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ June 29, 2004, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

Thanks SS

Thanks SS for the information. I know this will help me a great deal. Guess what I was so frustrated about the whole MC thing and just as I was making some lunch a lady returned my call. She even does sessions in her home at 8pm perfect for my husbands hours. She was so easy to talk to and the best thing is I checked with my insurance and they pay 80 percent for 30 sessions. So I am looking forward to it. I set one up for thursday already. She feels it is very positive that my husband wants to come in.

I have read many books I think about 6 so far on marriage and affairs. I am reading one now on communication because that is a major problem with my husband and me. He says I don't understand him and he can't talk to me so I am trying to be a better listener instead of always interupting and giving my take on everything. Sometimes I guess you just need someone to listen not their advice.

I am not going to talk about OW or how my husband feels I just am going to go on with our life. I will continue to make myself better and if after MC and my changes he still wants to go then he will need to bring it up. I am not going to ask him if he still wants to go or anything. I feel that this time he does truly mean it about the OW and NC. I guess I just see it in him this time. But I also see the pain and hurt. And that kills me.

SS did your WH ever leave and then come back to work it out or did he always stick around?

Did your WS stop telling you they loved you but eventually started saying it again? Should I stop saying it to him for awhile? I don't know if it even matters but I read somewhere to not say I love you until he comes out of the fog.

<small>[ June 29, 2004, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: SadMarylandLady ]</small>

Yes, my H stopped saying ILY after the PA started. And all through our separation. 2 days before he moved back home, he told me he loved me. Which is one of the reasons he got to come home.

I think each situation is different, but if you telling him you love him seems to irritate him, or make him feel uncomfortable, just say it inside your own head. If he askes you, tell him the truth. I know it frustrated my H because he knew I still loved him so much, and it reminded him of what a schmuck he was because he had those feelings for OW and not me. He knew it wasn't right, but couldn't just turn his feelings off. Remember, with sporadic communication, and no EA or PA, it still took my H almost 4 months to defog. It is a process. It takes time. Dig in for the long haul, and be pleasantly surprised if my voice of doom is not warranted.

That is SO awesome about the MC! And insurance, too! THAT should make your H feel better about going, too. Men see financial incentive (usually). I just knew if you put out an honest effort to seek assistance, you would be provided for. I do believe that.

I think you are on the road to the best possible outcome. You can only control you. And, you might be surprised by the things you discover about yourself during this time. Keep taking care of you.

You still haven't answered my question (at least on this thread) about how much your H knows about MB. I really would like to know, so I know how much I feel comfortable posting. When WS are not in a good mindset, them reading here can be inflamatory. Right now, until your H seeks his own support here, this place is for you.

Let me know. Chat at you later.

SS

Sorry I keep forgetting to answer that question. I only told him I was on a marraige site that helps people in our situation. I didn't give a name or anything. I just talk to him about other people on here going through similar situations and the good outcomes.

Cool. Thanks, SML! Have a good night. Chat at you tomorrow.

SS

Dear SML,

How are you getting on?

How is your pregnancy going and your situation?

I have been reading your posts, and am so sad for you in this situation.

I don't know how me as a FWW can be of any comfort at all to you in this situation, but I hope you will understand my feelings are genuine to you, and I care and want you to be ok.

Am still praying for you.

Please pray for me too.

Thank you for this,

I haven't forgotten that when you first posted to me, you had no condemnation or anger to me, but was very kind and gentle in your reply.

I do appreciate that. Thank you.

Please take care,

Kas

How are you doing today, SML? I haven't seen any posts, and am curious!

Keep posting. How did last evening go? Have you and H been talking? Aren't I so nosy???

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> SS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

My husband didn't get home till a little late last night. The metro was broke down and they had to shuttle bus them to the next stops. He actually emailed me from his handheld to let me know what was going on. I guess he figured I would assume he was staying at work and calling her. This is the first time he ever did this just to let me know I could trust him I guess. I didn't even say anything.

Remember yesterday I said he didn't say ILY anymore. Well I emailed him yesterday and told him that I miss hearing it so much but I was not going to pressure him until he was ready to feel and say it again. He came home last night and gave me the most tender hug and said my love for you never died. I still love you. He didn't have to say this but that made me feel so good last night.

We talked a little but not much he was very tired and we just layed on the floor and watched a DVD. Then went to bed. The only thing is one of my biggest EN is SF. I put on a nice nightgown and was kissing his neck and stuff and he said I told you I want to connect with you spiritually. I ask him what he means by that but he does not answer. Of course I feel rejected and my self confidence goes down everytime he turns me down. I think this is my way of feeling close to him.

I did print the emotional needs things out. He said he will fill it out. We were discussing it last night I know his biggest need is conversation which I have never been good at. Have any ideas? He is a writer, artist, and poet. He is so good with words and stuff I'm not. With the OW I noticed in her emails and stuff she writes similar to him and is also a poet. So I can see why he feels they are connected more so than him and me. I suggested that we take a writing class at the local business college he seems to want to but that doesn't start till fall. So today I sent him a email asking if he would like to work on a project together. Like writing a book or something. We were thinking about designing our own greeting cards and he can write the poetry and stuff for them. Then give them away to family members on different occassions and see if they are a hit or not. He is always trying to think of ways to use his talents for money.

I am letting go of the whole OW thing. For the last 6 months I have been focusing totally on her and trying to get her out of the picture I lost track of me and my own needs. No matter what I do I know now he has to decide to do the right thing. With him the more I push on a issue the more he balks. I am now going to focus on me and making myself a better person, wife and mother. I am not even going to bring her name up or ask about contact. He knows it is wrong so it's up to him to make the right choices.

I am interested in our MC appoinment tomorrow. I told him I cancelled it because he was making jokes about just going to disagree with them. He asked me before we went to bed did you cancel that appointment. I said yes. Then he said well you must not want to make us work. I just smiled and said you know I didn't and he said he would go to see what they have to say. I am really hoping it helps some.

Dear SML,

I have just logged on and read your post and update.

Am glad you are still there.

You seem such a couragous lady, coping with all this in the way you are doing, as well as carrying a baby.

How do you manage to cope the way you do? You seem so kind and loving to your H despite it all.

I do hope the MC goes well.

Please take care of yourself.

Kas

BV,

Thanks so much for your prayers and support. I am also praying for you and your situation. Reading the posts in MB has made me keep trying. Without this site I probably would have very little hope and be doing a lot of the wrong things that would push my WS away more.

My love for my husband is so great and that is another thing that keeps me going. I still know he is truly a wonderful guy. I have never met a man like him before. I just believe he made a big mistake and got caught up in his web of lies and felt like there was no way out.

I really don't feel pregnant or look pregnant. I have only gained one pound as of last doc appointment but I am sure I just jinxed myself when I go back this time it will probably be 5 pounds or something. Hehe.. I did just start feeling the baby start to kick. It started out as little flutters now it's more like soft kicks. In my heart I truly believe my WS will stay and eventually do the right thing but until then I have to be strong for my kids and myself.

Thanks for caring BV. Your words mean so much to me. Also SS you have helped me so so much. I can't tell you have much you have meant to me over the last few days. Hugs... Thanks again you guys.

<small>[ June 30, 2004, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: SadMarylandLady ]</small>

Dear SML,

I just had to reply back. There is something in you (as the BS) which is really helping me (as the FWW)

You are giving me an insight into my H which I guess I never had before.I want to learn from you and your words and example. You see my H is just like you and I guess I am like your WH. My husband has said the following of me just like you are saying about your H..

"My love for my husband is so great and that is another thing that keeps me going. I still know he is truly a wonderful guy. I have never met a man like him before. I just believe he made a big mistake and got caught up in his web of lies and felt like there was no way out."

It is blowing me away, because my H feels that way about me despite what I have done. He believes I also made a mistake and has forgiven me and loves me so much.

I can't seem to comprehend this love to me. I see the same in you for your H and am intrigued by it. Something (probably God) is drawing me to your thread to learn from you and see how a person can be like that even though I am a Christian. It seems you are a practical example like my H of forgiveness and love.

If I was the BS could I have been like you are to my H? I really don't know. All I know is that you and my H reach out in your own hard times and pain and yet seem to give love in return.

I want to learn and take this in, because it seems so profound.

I never thought I could ever post to a BS because I struggle with forgiving myself so much, and to post to you knowing your pain makes it even more of a reality to me, yet I want to learn and try to move on.

Your H seems to be having difficulty in the'withdrawing' stage like me. I just want you to know I appreciate your response to me and how you reach out to others in your pain.

Thanks for listening.

Kas

BV,
You are a amazing person also. I just hope my WH stays and tries to work it out with me like you are doing with your husband.

I think with me when he does something that hurts me I always remember the good times. This weekend was so painful knowing he went to meet her in person after 6 months of not seeing her. I knew before he went he was going but he denied it but I had to let him go anyway. I had to let him make the choice. I really don't think he is himself because the guy I married would have never hurt me like this but I still see bits and pieces of him.

Just like the guy I married would have never left his kids or me for anyone or anything. He's still around even after he says he wants to out so maybe that guy is still there after all. He makes excuses at times why he can't leave just yet. Like he doesn't want to go if I am going to be bitter or he will leave when he knows I will be ok. So I know he truly is torn.

I know how he got caught up in this EA. I can see some of the things I didn't do that I could have done. Now I just hope he stays so we can work on our problems because I know we can make this better and if he goes I know he will regret it later.

Broken Vessel if your husband has forgiven you isn't it time you forgave yourself some and started enjoying your marriage again? Don't always feel shame and guilt over something that is in the past. Especially if you are trying to work on your marriage and make things better. I am sure if your husband feels like I do I would rather see my husband trying and happy than sad and feeling guilt. But right now my husband says he doesn't feel any guilt or remorse. I know once the fog lifts he will though.

SS,
How are you and your hubby doing this week? I can't remember if you told me or not but how long has it been for you to get where you are in regards of recovery? I called my husband at work he seemed really busy but not annoyed that I called him like he use to do. I can see some changes in him. I just hope they last. I wanted to thank you again for all your support and advice you have given me so much strength these last few days. Thanks for caring enough to stick with my ordeal.

Big Hugs,
Tina

Dear SML,

Thank you for your reply. I guess I never thought of it as you have put it:

" I am sure if your husband feels like I do I would rather see my husband trying and happy than sad and feeling guilt. But right now my husband says he doesn't feel any guilt or remorse. I know once the fog lifts he will though. "

I know my husband would like to see me trying and happy and getting through this 'self forgiveness' struggle and constantly beating myself up and hating myself.

He tells me: God has forgiven you. I have totally forgiven you. Why won't you forgive yourself? You must do he tells me.

I want to.

Thanks again,

Please take care.

Praying for you both .

Kas

Well I was feeling so positive about things until last night. Again I tried putting on a nice nightie and again I got rejected. I feel like I am the one who has done something wrong. My self esteem has hit a all time low. When I was kissing him in bed he just pulled my hand in his and held it and said goodnight. I continued kissing him and then he said how have you changed. That really hurt. I know I haven't acted the same since he has got back. I haven't nagged him once, I haven't mentioned the OW only when we both were talking, I haven't asked if he has been in contact with her. I have made suggestions in emails I have sent him on ways to improve our communication and ways to make marriage less boring. But he does not even mention anything or act upon anything. I cannot do this alone. If he really wants this to work he has to work with me. So I feel really down right now. His last comment before he went to bed was the only change is tomorrow with our MC appointment. I hope he is truly going there to work on us. I have this feeling he might go just to say it's not for us and say he wants to leave.

He called me a little bit ago and said change sometimes takes time for another person to see. Keep us in your prayers we really need it.

SML -

Sorry I haven't been around lately - been very very busy. My H and I are doing good this week. I am beginning to be able to let go of my anger, suspicion, hurt - finally! I notice it now, and let it go. A month ago, this wasn't possible. So, I take that as progress. Some days are better than others.

Let's see. How long have H and I been in recovery? Well, he came home the beginning of April. So, almost 3 months. And overall, it gets better and better each week.

My H went through most of his OW withdrawals while we were separated, and in the "PLan B" he put us in - he requested only email communication, only regarding kids and finances. That was very hard for me. BUT, I needed to disconnect from his chaos, so for us, it was a blessing he was gone. Of course, doesn't matter if it was a blessing or not, he was gone. I made the best and the most out of it.

In hindsight, I see small things H did that gave me hope, even though his words were that he wanted D, never loved me, blah blah blah. For instance, he never removed my picture from the front of his wallet. Before the A, he used to tell me that he kept mine on top, so he could see me whenever he opened up his wallet. Well, I kept thinking, if he never loved me and wanted D, he would have removed that picture and put one of his kids on the top.

And the fact that he kept going to counseling, even though he thought it didn't do any good. I think he was only capable of passive niceness to me. He couldn't help himself with the OW because he got sucked into the A (which is so much like a substance abuse problem). He really FELT at the time the way he told me he did, which was very hurtful, but I think that a part of him was somehow holding onto me for dear life.

I highly recommend that you do not initiate SF or kissing or anything right now. He knows you are receptive to him. I think the more you ask, the more he will be inclined to not want to. Let it be his interest. Make sure you always look nice, keep everything shaved, be pleasant, all of that. Let the asking come from him. Before H was ready, I tried to initiate a little, and he resisted. After that, I looked my best, got my hair done every 6 weeks, bought new clothes (because I lost 30 pounds), and soon after that, he came running to me, asking me.

I read your last post. Keep hope. For a while, unfortunately, you will be the only one working on your M. The most he can do right now is probably passive - allowing MC, staying in the home. And I think you are right that he is making excuses to stay for now - that is his way of holding onto you and his family, without admitting it to himself.

The longer NC goes on, the more defogged he will become. You will be able to tell if he is communicating with her, I think. When you called him yesterday and he didn't sound irritated, sounded pleasant, that is a good sign to me.

Just keep your eyes and ears open. You are right, these are choices he has to make, and you letting him do that could be what he really needs right now. Listen to your instincts, they seem to be serving you well.

Chat at you later, girl. Hang in there. You can look up my old threads (somehow), and ready my journey. Unfortunately, I am long-winded, so they are lengthy. BUT, if you have some time . . . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SS

Last night was our first MC session. I really didn't know what to expect and I was really nervous. The lady seemed really easy to talk to and one of her specialties is communication which we are lacking. She also mainly specializes in Marriage counseling for 25 years.

The only thing at the time of the session I felt really attacked. She said I have really low self esteem and am clinging to my husband as my everything and making him feel like a caged bird. I am sure she didn't say those things exactly but that is how I took what she was saying. I do realize now that I have no life besides my husband and kids. I am a stay at home mom and don't really have any friends or family that live near me.

I guess I use my husband as my entertainment. She said my homework is to work on ways to be more independant and think of things to do without him. Also I have been looking for a part time job just to get out and make a little extra money.

My husband really connected with her. He is a deep thinker and very good with words and she seemed to really connect with him and understood the things he was saying. That made him feel good. She did not tell him the affair was wrong or say anything about the affair. She did plant a seed I think when she said he hasn't met his goals and dreams of becoming a writer and artist and he is in a job he hates. So he met this college student who is independant and following her dreams and that is why he was attracted to her.

He told the MC that he went down last week and has finally told the OW goodbye. That he realized he cannot go on hurting both of us and that he told the OW he wanted to see if our marriage can be worked on. The MC asked my husband at the end of the session what he wanted to do. She said the ball was in his court. Did he want to throw in the towel, did he want to come back for more sessions, did he want to work on his marriage. He told her at first he went to her because of me but felt like he enjoyed the session and got alot off his chest. Said he wanted to continue working on our marriage to see where we can go with it.

I was very happy yet I still know things can change. But I think this is a positive thing. It has brought a lot to my attention that I didn't think about before. And I know I need to change because she was right on about me. Even if it was hard to hear at first.

Hey there SadMary,
I'm glad your H found the counseling session helpful. This may be a great advantage.

I'm not particularly happy with this MC though, 2 things, #1 - she didn't address what the A did to you, she only saw it through his eyes, unless you left out something, or she is moving very slowly.

#2, you're a stay at home mom, you take care of the house, your husband and your children, and you shouldn't expect recreation with your H ? I agree that you should have your OWN interests, but she should have emphasized things you AND H could do TOGETHER that is recreational. I don't think you're codependant at all.

I live in a place with no friends (well 1 or 2 from work, nothing socially), all my family is 2 hours away. My H is my best friend. He is the person I most enjoy spending time with. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I'm glad things are turning around for you, stay strong, and don't take what MC says personally. You don't want to be put in a position that you feel like there's just SO much wrong with YOU.

There is nothing wrong with you. I applaud your courage and persistence !!!

Hang in there !!!