</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I guess what I should be saying is thanks FL, it was my pleasure to have a bright impact on your life.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">there ya go <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

yes, it is sad what scars can be left by parents. my struggle is believing i am "good enough". although i felt i was a good kid, i never felt "good enough" for either of my parents because i never felt much love from either of them. my mom was way too bitter towards my dad for their failed marriage and too lonley for having a new man in her life to have any energy left to show us love. my dad was too busy being the perfect husband to his new W (who didn't seem to really like us much) to have much left for us either. but as a kid, you don't see all that as their flaws, you take it on yourself as your fault. sound similar??

and now as an individual that doesnt have it all together and as a couple that doesn't have it all together, i worry so much about how much this is all impacting our kids. I love them dearly, but do they know it? i try to show it but is it working?? only time will tell.

ok, now i should end this on an upbeat cuz that all sounded so depressing... unfortunately i don't have any joke to share. oh well, how about i just go focus on work instead. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

RWS - I'm damned happy for you that it turned out to be a pleasant birthday. See how things can change?

Good call on the earrings. I gave my W a pair just as her EA was starting (before dday). She mumbled a half-hearted thank you and I don't know if she's ever worn them. I was so confused. I couldn't do anything right.

During my failed recovery I bought flowers for the sparrow pretty regularly, and it seemed to do nothing for her at all. Perhaps it made her feel rotten by highlighting her lack of feelings for me.

It just goes to show, everybody is different, even if they are working from the same manual. This MB is as much art as it is science, isn't it?

GC

Well, thanks for all the input. To give you an update... she pulled her earrings out right there at the table and put the new ones in. She really liked them. But, I didn't focus on them, that's not what the evening was about. I just enjoyed being with my wife and it was good not to "talk about everything" and bring it all down. I saw her laugh last night till she almost spit out the coke she was drinking. It was so good to see that again. It's like sometimes she'll poke her head out of the confusion and then she'll pull it back in. Like the name of the song, "momentary lapses of reason."

Running with Scissors,

Sorry to threadjack. My friends seem to be following your story and I have a really big vent.

BAD day today.

NCW.

Deleted by NCW

<small>[ June 29, 2004, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: ncwalker ]</small>

wow, ncwalker, you are not having a good day!!!!

i got a bit confused here... maybe i just don't know your story enough.

when was original d-day?
did you catch her or did she confess?
after d-day, affair continued for a while?? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but I love her, and say go ahead. STUPID STUPID. She continues this affair and is f*cking him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i think the point is, you are very confused to... is this A really over??

i think you need to be clear as to what exactly you need from her. it is totally OK for you to need certain things in order for YOU to continue working on marriage. An assurance that this A is over is an obvious one. It sounds like OMW was never told?? and your W does not want you to do that, right? but maybe YOU need that to happen. am i right?

i can't give you any 2x4s, i think she is being unreasonable...

no way should you be ok with her staying home alone all weekend given the state of things. she belongs with you, bottomline.

i don't know what else to say to you, i hope others come along

My God, Brother I've been there! You give and you give and you give.... you turn around for a scrap of reassurance and you get nothing (feels like less than nothing) for your trouble. Have you read Love Must Be Tough by James Dobson. He talks about not allowing yourself to get used to further the A. I didn't understand the first part of your post, did you say that you found out that there was more contact between your W and OM?? It sounds like you're somewhere between Plan A and Recovery. You have to get to a point where there is NC at all. If and when you get there, then you;'ve got to let her go through withdrawal. This is the worst part of all. She is still all about herself and thinks and does very little for anyone other than herself. You're over in the corner bleeding and she could care less. Been there, done that and bought the t-shirt > I know. If she just had more contact and you leave for a week > man it will be bad news. I swear, if she wouldn't go, then neither would I. I'd use this medical thing with you as an excuse, but I'll be danged if I'd let my house become the lovenest for the week. Who knows, maybe nothing would go on... but then again, even if nothing happened you would be in a perfect hell the whole time you'd be gone. Don't do that to yourself. Try like heck to get her to go with you. If you haven't yet, read that Dobson book.

Stay strong brother! I swear I know how you feel, and i'm sure that doesn't mean a thing to you right now, but pray and pray some more. God has not forgotten you.

sorry for the addendem, but, you've got to determine if this A is over!!!!

If you're unsure then don't you leave her there this week. If she won't go then you stay. I'd rather botch up some plans, than have everything go back to square one with my M recovery and go through that crap again.

thats a thought... can you not go away?? tell her if she is not comfortable with going then you will not go either, instead of forcing her to do something, you will choose to do what needs to be done in order for you two to be together over the weekend. then you can work on what ever she wants to have done over the house TOGETHER.

i hate to say this to you... when i was IN the A and i saw an opportunity to have the family leave town without me, i worked really hard to encourage the situation... it is very possible that this A has re-started.... do you think?

do you read much of what she says here or do you two stay away from each other posts? just curious as to what her posts have been saying as of late. i know there is a thread or two that she and BV and ?? all talk in, i don't really feel like i am in the same spot as most other WWs cuz of the lack of emotions in my A. so i don't keep up on those threads very much. i am not going thru the withdrawal, makes me feel a bit less human... for having an A without emotions, but the up side of it is... my H is not having to deal with withdrawal... and i don't think he would be able too, even with me trying as hard as i am, he is having trouble working thru his pain, i cant imagine him even wanting to if i was in a confused state of mind (actually i am sometimes but it is more about how negatively i feel about myself, not due to missing OM).

i wish i could be of more help for you.

This thread is JACKED.

NCW, your wife is asking for too much. After what's happened, her demand for time alone to think things over and clean the carpet is completely unreasonable. Get her on here so the FWW's can give her a few whacks. She surely can't expect you to trust her...

WW's, when you're in withdrawal you CANNOT expect to be given unnacounted-for time on your own! My WW spent her last soul-searching weekend sneaking off in the woods to hook up with OM, who was on his own think-things-over getaway. Then she came back and said, "I think we should break up."

GC

I started this thread... and it's ok that it's been jacked. My question about the feelings for my W have been addressed. I just feel for NCW > I've been there.

out!

Deleted by NCWalker

NCW

<small>[ June 29, 2004, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: ncwalker ]</small>

PS - Heading out the door for home now, wish me luck.

NCW: Wish I saw this thread earlier and could have posted sooner. It sounds like you have more on your hands that I originally thought. Your post last night to my response to the 5 year reunion makes more sense now.

Ok, couple of things I think you need to do ASAP (or at least as soon as you physically can): You need to tell the OMW about what has happened, how you found out and about the relapse. (Runawaypot, if you're reading this, I'm sorry, but ncwalker needs this accountability from you. He needs another set of eyes watching OM.) The both of you need to draft up a brand stinking new NC letter. RAP can write it, you approve it and either mail it or deliver it. Now if RAP isn't reading this thread, then I would tell OMW first and worry about getting the NC letter later. She may very well not be still in the A, but the fact that the option is still open has not been pressed upon her. If you read my original post, I told OMW the day I found out. Now it wasn't that I was honorable or anything like that-I had visions of doing physical harm to him, luckily I didn't-kept thinking about my kids. Now what I'm saying is, you need to nip this in the bud before it possibly reexplodes.

Now, at this point, on this specific item, telling OMW, POJA does not apply. I say that seriously! As you say, she has only shown selfish behavior, until that changes you need to protect yourself. And I say that while you may still negotiate on whether she goes this weekend or not, it's your call on when to out the OM. The fact that she had contact on 6/3 tells me that her withdrawal is more serious that many of the other FWW on the moving on thread.

One other thing, NCW, please email me. You still have my email address right? There is another thing that I want to tell you but not here. If you need, just go create a HOTMAIL or YAHOO address or whatever you need.

Good luck and God Bless!
RH

NCW,

You should NOT be trusting your WW now. Sorry you are not even a month out of the last d-day. Plan A does not say trust, it says NO LB's, but it also means that you set boundaries on behavior you accept or won't accept and you make them clear. You do this in a calm, but clear way.

Frankly, there is NO WAY on this piece of rock I would leave her there. She is at best in withdrawal, and still may be in contact with OM. She is still acting independently which Harley discusses at length. It is a sure sign she is still fogged.

You might as well get off of the guilt trip about her being a SAHM. Read FL's story, she wants to be with her children. I don't know how being a SAHM has gotten to be such a great sacrifice as most people have JOB's not POSITIONS and as such they really work hard at the JOB.

NCW, calm down, but also set your boundaries and leaving her alone given her behavior is clearly a boundary breaker in my mind.

I hope your evening goes well.

God Bless,

JL

nc - why did you delete your post?

OK,

In my vent I got all of you riled up. Most of that stuff happened in the past and just led up to me blowing up at RAP.

Here is the timeline of what happened. From RAPs signature line.

1st DDay 3/03/04(partial truth) She told me while I was deployed he had tried to kiss her and she kissed him back and stopped. She asked to continue to train. I was mad but honored her honesty. Did not know about Plan A, MB, POJA, anything. Her story was a lie. She was continuing the PA. I had told her, go ahead and train, but if he touches you it must end. The training was important to her and she deserved it. I didn’t think she would be lying to me.

2nd DDay 3/17/04 This is when she confessed the true nature of the PA and told me it was over. She told me it was only the one time before 3/03/04.

3rd DDay 6/01/04 This is right before we started MC and she confessed lying to me and the PA HAD been continuing. This is when she called him and said it was over. Neither one of us knows about MB yet, so NC letters, etc. is all foreign.

Between 3rd D-Day and now, she has confessed quite a bit more, but more what she DID than what she is still doing – which I believe is nothing.

NCW finds MB 6/11/04

RAP introduced to MB 6/14/04

EA 11/04-6/04
PA 2/23/04-5/30/04

I was frustrated because this trip was coming up and I don’t have a peace about her staying. I had been hinting to her that she should go. When the OM left for a vacation and was gone, she lightened up a bit. It was good for her. I was very angry and hurt that she could not understand my feelings about her staying. She is still in the fog. He has this training notebook he was making for her and he has not given it to her. He has called a few times since June 1st. I guess to give her the notebook. I don’t know. She did not let me hear his messages.

I am trying to be supportive and am working my butt off to do so. She is in the fog, depressed, you know the deal. And I know she can’t give, but I am getting so little from her. And I am worried that if I left for a week with the kids, she would falter in the NC. She says she wouldn’t and says things like “If I still wanted to, I could.” Which is true. I have to go to work during the day and I let her go to the gym at night. And this is important – she is NOT GOING TO THE SAME GYM. She does not have a membership at the gym the OM goes to. But I still worry about it.

She feels the OM is not interested in her. To an extent I believe she is right. She had a set of morals that finally let her break the cycle. I think it was too much “work” for him dealing with her because of that. But I do believe he would take whatever opportunity he is given.

What got me so burned was the way she went about the vacation. It started as a trip for the boys to compete in a martial arts competition. She was all for going down then. Wanted to go and watch them compete. The boys decided they did not want to compete, as the competition was going to be very advanced and they did not feel they were going to be ready. Try next year. I’m OK with that, they work hard at it. So the decision was to go down anyway. My dad lives there and keeps a boat. Sun, fun, fishing, etc. All of this discussion is happening in May.

She starts talking, maybe 8 to 10 days ago, that she wants to stay to take care of things in the house and not go. Time by herself, time away from boys, said she needed it. I understood that. I DID NOT like that option. I am trying to come to a solution. I offer things like visit a friend out of town, see YOUR parents. All those are a NO-GO with RAP. And it continues on, closer and closer. I told her I would be too hard on me to leave her here emotionally.

What really hurt was she didn’t see that. I told her and she was only thinking about how much she needed time by herself. That HURT. It was the WAY it was delivered. She acquiesced before I wrote my vent and said she would go, but it was phrased with the tone and words similar to “I’m going because you’re making me.” Not “I’m going because I don’t want you to hurt so much.”

I just feel like she doesn’t care about my feelings and can’t really give me anything. She read this thread and was a little upset. Understandably because I was venting and my timeline was a little mixed up and you all started thinking this PA is still going on. It is not, to my knowledge. Again, I can’t say it is not, definitely, because I can’t be with her 24/7. But I AM watching now and she would really have to be trying to make it happen.

If she reads this and it hurts her, I am sorry. But she isn’t doing anything for me right now. Cooks dinner occasionally. Put the kids to bed tonight. But said “I’m not having you think I don’t do anything” when she did it. Kind of takes the giving aspect of it away when you say that. In her defense, she really is messed up by all this. It did bring up some issues she has been needing to deal with in our whole marriage. It brought some up in me as well. But she was pretty scarred as a kid.

Well. End result is I got what I wanted. She is going with us. But I did not get what I needed, her realizing I needed something and giving even though it was uncomfortable for her. Or not what she wanted.

I truly believe she wants the marriage to work. I am going to stay the course. I know she is hurting, but she is doing a really good job of pushing me away.

I was angry before. Now I am just really sad. I feel like, in her eyes, that I am something she has to OVERCOME to be happy. Like I am something she has to learn to live with. That is what scares me the most. I am just a regular guy, not any better or worse than anyone else, with the only distinctive characteristic that I love her with all my heart. I don’t understand what she has to overcome. It feels like my feelings are invalidated and I am wrong for having them by what she says and does.

We have MC tomorrow and hopefully we can talk about some of this. Biggest problem is she keeps saying “It’s me, not you.” And that, to me, is not a “natural” answer. I don’t know if it is valid. I don’t know what it means. I only REALLY know how I feel and how I react. My own paradigm does not allow “It’s me, not you.” To be an answer. I truly believe my emotional state is my choice. Sometimes it runs away with me, like it did today. But in general, I am pretty successful at choosing my emotional state. But I am also wired that way. I get frustrated and don’t understand why she can’t. Or maybe why she hasn’t learned how.

I think the OM freed in her something that she needed. Something that I wasn’t doing all those years before. What really hurts is I would have worked at it if she had only asked. Maybe. I don’t know. Maybe she did ask and I didn’t listen. I know I love her enough to do anything. It’s just all different now, you know? When it feels so one way. The “is this worth it” demons are running strong tonight. Yeah. I got what I wanted. Why do I feel like crying?

NC,

I am so sorry this is happening to you. RAP is still seriously fogged and I know that it must be something that you are tired of hearing but it's still the case.

I remember when I was in the A I was really selfish, it was all about me. There are times where I still think that, today even, but they come and go so fast now that I don't even react until it's all over with. Slowly but surely my thoughts are more about my husband now.

RAP will get to that point but it's going to take time. I wish I could give you a set amount of time that withdrawals last, i.e. 6 weeks, 6 months, etc. At least you can prepare yourself for that ya know? But I can't. Right now she's going back and forth and she isn't ready to give you much. Just hang in there and be the best damn husband you can be.

That doesn't mean letting her stay home either. Trust needs to be earned. I lost that trust and am slowly - SLOWLY getting it back. I know that I have to respond to every one of my hubby's requests and each time I do it sets his mind at ease. Your requests are not out of the ordinary by any means, my thinking is just your wife is still in that fogged state, which is a very selfish state of mind but none the less, it's what we go through unfortunately.

I am concerned about a NC letter not being being sent. My hubby e-mailed one to the other man, with me standing right next to him. I have not heard one word since. My guess is my husband scared the s**t out of him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> It might put your mind at ease if this were done. Not scaring the piss out of him but telling him that you are aware of what's going on and it's destroying your marriage. Maybe that will give you peace of mind?

You are a good man and RAP is a wonderful woman. This is a total b**ch to go through but you can make it. You need to lean on God now, give the situation to Him. He will get you and RAP through this. Don't let the enemy's little minions torture and torment your mind. Rebuke them if you have to. The power of God is much more powerful than anything above, and below the earth.

Put on the armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-20). You are in a battle my dear, both in your marriage and spiritually. You need to protect yourself and your family.

God bless,
Carol <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

CH,

RAP and I have had a rough 24 hrs. Seems we were both at the bottom of the roller coaster at the same time. We have pretty much let each other have it. Said the kinds of things that are hard to take back in good circumstances. Feels like the ship is sinking today. I know this will pass. Unsure if she is going with us on the vacation now. Don't know what that means.

Will lean on God. Will try to keep my tongue under control. Any mistake is costly to our healing and like Pepperband says, one of us has to drive.

NCWalker

my prayers are with you both today!!

fyi: when i asked about if you read each other's posts i was just curious how that works. many things i post here i would love for my H to see and many times i think about introducing him to it.

two things stop me:

1) i fear he would not take the time to see the good from this site, that he would only be very unhappy that i am communicating with people on the internet (given that is how i met OM, i understand this, but there is good contact and bad contact and this site has been a huge positive impact on me and on our M, which means indirectly on him too!!),

2) sometimes i am glad it is just me here because i can say anything here and then get help via 2x4s or just plain good reasoning before saying or doing something stupid to H.

sometimes i feel very selfish for NOT introducing him to the site. i would think if he gave it a chance, he could be helped a lot too, but knowing he does not like computers much or being online, i doubt he would want to read/post.

anyway i was in no way thinking of being any kind of go between for you two. i am doing just fine messing up my own M, thank you very much, i don't want to mess up someone else's too!!!

i hope this all works out for you guys. I still believe you should in no way be apart for that long. i hope you can consider cancelling the trip all together if that is what is needed.