Penny will tell you (something like) "It's not affairs that end marriages, it's not having a recovery plan and getting stuck that ends marriages." That's not a exact quote, but it's close.

gc, while your W is determined to get her divorce, there's nothing you can do... ...that is, except stall, because you don't have to just sign, assuming divorce papers ever appear at your door.

This is still very "new" whether she's on a fast track or not, so there's a lot of options you can exhaust before going to plan B. But that is only if you don't get exhausted in the process.

Personal recovery is a requirement, whatever you do. It won't hurt if you continue to grow as an individual while you're trying to restore your marriage.

best,
-Qfwfq (aka 2long)

Well they all think that their affair is just fine. So that is nothing new.

Did your wife complain about anything about you BEFORE the affair? Have you changed those things?

Graycloud,

You have my heartfelt sympathy.

I am almost in shock myself that someone whom once claimed to love you, could just be as cold and calloused as this. So this had to hit you LOW.

Its bad enough to Tell you ANY of this information, but when its done in such a nonchalant and matter of fact manner is Just............well Shocking.

I can see how this is throwing you for a loop. WOW!

Yes, listen to the others. If anyone Needs a Plan B, it is YOU.
Remember it is as much For You (Your feelings and your sanity), as for the M. Protect yourself, Go Dark.
I highly doubt you can take much more of treatment like this.

I can't believe her Attitude. Whether it is typical or not....IT still sucks.
I'm still shaking my head at this one.
Sorry not more constructive for you.

Take care

Me again! gosh - I must just think I am full of advice today - I can tell you that I am actually full of something else most of the time!

I just have to address something you said GC about how lostva plan A'd until her H came back. I would hesitate to call it a full plan A. She went weeks, even months without talking to him at all. In essence - he plan B'd her. He actaully lived in another town - so she did not have to constantly see him, bump into him, talk to him, etc, which I beleive helped to preserve her feelings for him.
Another comment you make that I have to disagree with is that she will jsut completely forget you. That just ain't gonna happen. I now you feel like she has all ready forgotten about you - but you were married for a long time - she will not forget that. Period. You don't completely forget huge blocks of time in your life. She will fake it for awhile, because her guilt is so strong, but she hasn't forgotten. She will hear a song - see someone who looks like you - read a book you would have enjoyed - etc.
The bottom line, as far as I can see, is that the relationship with OM will eventually fail. It will. I know you aren't so sure, but I am positive. Problem is - where will you be when that happens? At this point, are you prepared to wait it out, until the day when they finally crash and burn, so you can start the process of recovery? I am not saying that plan B will save your marriage - I am only saying that it will save your sanity while you are waiting for her to recognize all that se has lost.
I refer to lostva's stroy just to show you that the WS can say that they are done - they can move out, see an attorney, tell you 100 times that they will be "filing soon" and then, one day they ask to reconcile. I am not saying you should copy her methods, just know that your WW is not the first to say these stupid things - and claim to be "done" with her M only to have regrets later and want to repair the relationship.
And Lostva is not the only story like that.
GC - I see hope for you, but I fear that you will end up like me. Waking up one day and saying "I'm done with this - I want to get D so I can move on and find someone new".
Their relationship is all ready starting to crack - the financial strain is there. next comes the constant bickering. the man is cheating on his pregnant wife - he is a PIG. He is capable of doing some crappy things - and he isn't going to suddenly change for your WW.
The question is - can you wait it out? Can you be there for her when it all comes crashing down?You have not seen the worst of it yet - as her relationship with OM falls apart she will become angry towards you and everyone else around her. But one day she will wake up.
Someone else here asked a good question earlier - Have you taken a look at what happened in your M before the OM came along, that contributed to this? That crap about him being artsy fartsy does not really expalin why she was ready to give up a devoted husband, a home that you two purchased together, and the respect of her friends and family members.
What was going on before all this?

I agree completely!!!!

GC, if she could really forget you that easily - then you don't want to be married to her anyway. Don't let your fear guide your actions. It will lead you down the wrong path every time.

Here's what I've done wrong in my marriage:

I have not been generous with power. When I'm working on something in the house, the sparrow will sometimes say, work on this other thing, and I say no I can't do that yet for this very good and logical reason, and then I do what I want.

I'm too independent. She has not always been supportive of me doing music. Sure, it's only a few hours a week. But many, many times, she didn't want me to go to band rehearsal because she wanted to be with me. Once I said, "Sparrow, this is something I love to do, and you have to let me do it." She remembered and resented that. It was selfish of her to not want me to do this, but I didn't deal with it well. Music is the only thing that ever took me away from her. I didn't go on trips with friends, I rarely went out without her coming along. But still there was something about this one thing that got to her, and we didn't deal with it well.

I haven't put enough effort into making our life together romantic. I have been complacent, terribly negligent, in this regard. I didn't even get her an XMas gift last year. When we were poor we got in the habit of not giving each other gifts, and when we were no longer poor and we got busy I managed to not make her my biggest priority. I tried to make up for it later, but the damage was done.

When I take on a tone of voice that makes her feel belittled, and she complains, rather than saying I'm sorry, I'll try not to do that again, I argue and say no no, you got it all wrong, don't be so sensitive.

I disagree with her too much. It makes her feel hurt, and deep down I've always known it, but I never stopped. She has always avoided arguing with me, because she does not like confrontation, but eventually she stopped complaining, and without really thinking about it, I concluded that everything was great. But resentment grew in her. She said the other night, "I've said this before, but I need to learn to be more in touch with my feelings. I didn't tell you how I felt about things until it was too late."

I allow myself to become frustrated and angry too easily about things not being just right. If the house is a mess, I stress out and get uptight about it, and my wife does not like it. Many times, she's said "It's like you're squeezing on
my heart when you're like this." And I've tried to avoid it, but not hard enough.

I don't do my fair share of household chores.

But honestly, we were very happy together almost all the time. OM is a lot like me, it seems, but some of these faults I have, she thinks he does not have. To her right now, he's like another version of me, only lacking the things she doesn't like about me.

Those are my big faults. Now I want desperately to overcome them, and in a sense I believe I already have, but as far as the sparrow is concerned, it's too late. Mainly I guess I'm just too self-centered. That's the cross I'm carrying.

GC

Oh, and I'm terrible, terrible about managing my time.

I've been trying to finish my doctorate for five years, and I just can't get there. Sparrow thinks that her inability to help me do this points to a fundamental lack of compatibility between us.

GC

Well you have some things to work on. Do them. It is very important that you change the things you can.

WoF5, thank you again. Really.

My WW has said "life goes on" enough times. Even before this all started. That's what makes me feel it will be easy to forget me. But our life together, despite my faults, was truly rich. I remember hearing her on the phone, telling people, "I have a happy life." Just weeks before all this. When we were starting our recovery she'd say "I feel myself coming around" and "It feels good to be getting my life back". Maybe she was just trying to convince herself...

I fear my marriage will be over before the sparrow and OM crash and burn.

But I do fear for my sanity. I'm having too many days and nights filled with anguish. I'm incredibly lonely.

One thing a PBL would do for me - it would give me an opportunity to acknowledge my faults in a way that she would not be able to ignore. She thinks they cannot be overcome. She thinks, why bother when I've got the perfect man right here next to me?

It would also give me a chance to show her there is a clear path back into our M.

She has not lived on her own yet. She has been only one night in her new place. Now she's traveling for work. This weekend she'll be vacationing with OM. This whole month has been a vacation for her. Babysitting her cousin's children, traveling for work, going to the cabin with OM. No reality for her.

So the big question is, can I make any more deposits in plan A any more, or have I done enough that I need to lay my cards on the table? She seems to have her guilt eased at the moment. Maybe not. Others have seen these breezy, casual messages from their WSs before. What gives? It seems such an outrage, and she does it so freely. It is perfectly the opposite of the troubled, conflicted, guilty person I comforted a week ago.

I know I can't know where she is. But she comes across as being perfectly fine now that I've comforted her, told her I mean to forgive her, appeared strong and together.

If I plan A, I can't acknowledge my problems and show her a path back into our M, and she will keep hurting me, but I can be a kind, loving friend and demonstrate to her who I am becoming, at least once in a while. If I plan B, I have to say I've done everything I can and now it's up to you. And then I wait and hope.

I think I might have to call the Harleys.

GC

Graycloud,

I have been reading your story and I hate it when the WS rewrites the history of their marriage to justify their Affair. Be patient and don't give up hope. Your wife is on her honeymoon stage right now but she will begin to see the OM in "Real life" time and events. Your WW is trading one set of human faults for a different set of human faults so give her some time to see that.

I would say to not make yourself so available to her. Maybe it is time for you to even start shopping for a date or two as well and then tell her what you are doing. Good luck.

NO!

Absolutely NO dating. Does it work to make your wayward partner jealous? Yea, it often works very well. HOWEVER - then there is YET ONE MORE PERSON who is hurt.

You DO NOT USE other people as a pawn in a game to get your marriage back.

I know YOU know this GC.

Yes, I do know this. Not a chance, daddy-o.

graycloud,

If I plan A, I can't acknowledge my problems and show her a path back into our M

I don't follow your logic.

What about acknowledging your problems is counter to plan A? You're not lovebusting. You might be making big deposits by showing you can look "inside" yourself and change. You're showing that you have the ability to listen to the sparrow and take her feelings seriously.

If you're in Plan A then she KNOWS all she has to do is say "I messed up; can we work this out?" and then you discuss NC etc.

I'm not saying Plan A is better for you than Plan B right now, I'm just saying I don't think Plan A means you can't acknowledge your problems or show a path home.

Now, it's true that the sparrow will likely jump on your acknowledgement and use it to "prove" that M with you is a bad idea. But honestly, she'll fabricate anything to "prove" how miserable M to you is right now. I think that if I were in your shoes, if I acknowledged any of my faults to the sparrow, I'd only acknowledge my positive changes with out ever verbalizing the flaw that led to the positive change.

Okay, okay. I'm starting to get it. Skull being penetrated. I feel it's hard to demonstrate things to the sparrow because she's almost plan-B-ing me. That's what I mean about not being able to tell her things. That, and also I try not to be all me, me, me when I see her, which means I have to demonstrate my changes. There are not so many opportunities for this.

I have shown sparrow that I'm changing. I talked with her about how I'm learning to not always have to be in control. I've told her "I have lots to work on" and she knows I'm going to see an IC (1st appt today, incidentally). As I've said many times, I've been calm and understanding but defined my boundaries. I've taken care of things around the house, which the few times she's been there she has acknowledged. I don't get many opportunities to see her, but I've done very well when I have. Maybe too well.

Understanding better what is happening with her, to the degree I can, makes it harder for her insensitivity and thoughtlss cruelty to make me lose my love for her, even in the face of her casual flaunting of her A. But of course the pain is still huuuuuge.

I'll spend the next few days dark, and I'll figure out what do to (a/b). After my therapy today I may call the Harleys.

GC