Things will get bad and badder and nasty before the calm of the storm.
Your H will be desperately planning ways to manipulate the situation. He wants to be top dog.
You are doing so well given the circumstances on handling everything.

Hugs to your dd and to you!

haywire

How are you doing?

SD

Thanks for the hugs. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Things were calmer yesterday. WH worked with DD all day with only a few flare-ups. One was after he asked her "What's so wrong with a little light Bu**Sh*t on the side?" When I got home from work WH asked if I'd be home today (I'm off from work on Fridays). I said yes, and he said he'd like to talk in the morning.

So this morning we sat down for a talk but he told me very little. He wishes we could put it all behind us and reconcile but, he said, maybe it's irreparable. He said he hasn't been a good husband and regrets that. He minimizes the affair. Says its been going on for a few years, on and off. Denies having sex. Says that whatever I think happened, the reality was probably 1/10 of that. He said he thought he had more in common with OW than with me. He talked about how we'd drifted apart. He says that if we separate he won't be living with her.

Most of what he said were negatives...no sex, not in love with OW, didn't want to hurt me. I see it as continued attempts at manipulation. I told him that I needed to hear the whole story, and that if he couldn't do that, then we shouldn't be around each other.

He asked about DD and I told him that they need to stay connected. I think he was also asking about the studio, if he'd be able to continue there, and I told him that it was up to he and DD to decide. I know that DD doesn't want any connection with him as long as there is contact with OW. And next week is an out of town show for 2 weeks that DD, WH and OW will be attending. A few days ago WH asked if I would be going too and I said not if OW is going to be there. He said she'd be with another studio, and that he'd stay home during the week and go there with me on the weekends. I said no. At the show, OW will be in charge of an exhibit that is owned jointly by our studio and the other studio. WH will definitely be involved in overseeing her work there.

I'm pretty confused right now. I guess I was hoping for some tough honesty on his part that would convince me there is something to salvage. But no. I sense that he's only giving token attempts at honesty. I don't know what my next steps should be. Am I in Plan A? Plan B? Go directly to D?

Anyname, SD - thanks for asking how I am. I've lost a lot of weight and haven't been getting much sleep. Yesterday though I ate pretty well and got a solid 8 hours. Feeling better today. My nerves are shot too. But I haven't felt the anger or panic for a few days. Just sadness mostly.

Anyname, that's a good point about the friend he's labeled "troublemaker". I too wonder why he puts so much importance there. I do know that OW did not like her, probably saw her as a threat (very pretty, 27 years old). I believe OW has manipulative powers over WH's way of seeing things.

StillHere, that's a great idea to get DD to come here. When I get a chance I'll print this thread and ask her to read it. I hope she'll come here and post. She's wrestling with a lot of emotions and it would be good for her to write about it here. About the OW's family -- her parents divorced, remarried and went their separate ways. Both live far away from each other and from here. OW is still very close with her father and I've considered telling him about the A. But I'm tired of people not believing me.

Thank you, everyone. The support you've given me has been a lifeline.
HW

<small>[ July 23, 2004, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: haywire ]</small>

Haywire,

Only have a moment, but just wanted you to know we're keeping up with you.

Even though you'd just like EVERYTHING to just be out in the open and on the table. Take heart in this fact:
YOU are making progress here.

Your H has already back tracked on his "story" and went from "there is NOTHING" going on.........to YES, "there is and has been SOMETHING" going on between them.

I know in your state of mind this isn't anywhere near what you'd like........but believe me IT IS Progress.
Many have had to wait many many months to get even close to the confession your getting.....so just hang in there. Your plan is working.

As to what plan your in: You seem to be doing a strong plan A.
Doing your best to not LB, putting YOURSELF in the best possible light, yet remaining FIRM in your position that the A must end and NC be established for good.
Remember that a strong Plan A (should it by itself be unsuccessful) is the prelude to going into plan B. Its crucial to do plan A well, thereby making the "b" part more effective.

So far you seem to be doing it to the "T".
Don't beat yourself up if you do make some mistakes, that's normal. And its OK!
Just don't get SO Discouraged that you just want to give up altogether.

In any case, you can Always get a D if they don't work.
Why use your your last option first?
You don't want to have Huge regrets later on. (From not ever really making an honest attempt at reconciliation).

In addition, Try to keep sight of the fact that you are Early, early, early in this whole convoluted process.
In fact, your just getting started. I know, small comfort, HUH?
Keep in mind many of the stories you read are sometimes years into this.

YOU could easily fit right in on the "just found out" board.
Its hard, I know....but do your best to use that perspective. (if possible)
Do your best to stick with the plans. They can work for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From haywire:
But I'm tired of people not believing me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From what you've posted previously, it appears almost everyone else already knew. Or am I missing something here?

A last quickie: Really consider telling the OW father.
Just tell him its going on, that YOU WANT to save your M......and remind him that his daughter being with a man who could BE her Father (not to mention Married) is NOT a healthy place for her to be. Do your best to not attack her.
Indeed, work more the angle that he'd be more likely to respond to.....that being his daughters well-being and future.

(I realize you could give a HOOT about that for her right now........but to get HIS assistance you'll need to NOT seem like your attacking Her to him).

If you think you can't manage to pull that off, I would completely understand.
That is a lot to ask of you right now (with your feelings and emotions so "charged" as they are). In any case, give it some thought.

No matter how you feel, YOU Are doing a Heck of a job. Trust me, you Really ARE!

Oh yea, did you have your appointment with the lawyer? If so, how'd that go?

till next time

haywire

top rope has given you great advice. And I agree that you are doing extremely well in your efforts.

Bear in mind that your WH has a very potent "emotional cocktail" (not that you don't, but totally different)coarsing through his veins right now. He has been "caught", he does feel guilt, pain, shock, grief, angst, etc., but he has NO IDEA how to process all those feelings. Therefore, his actions will be widely varied.

His first reactions will be "righteous indignation" because he has "allowed" himself to fully justify the affair in his mind. (the dreaded FOG) He is angry because he "had it all" and you busted him. He is now "cornered" and will strike out at you because 1) he's convinced himself you are not the love of his life and 2) when he provokes you to anger, he is able to justify in his alien abducted mind that you are "bad" and the OW is "good" for his life.

As things progress, you may see some manifestations of sorrow, guilt and shame, but this may take some time. He may not share the Paul Harvey "rest of the story" all at once, rather in dribs and drabs, with his muddied thinking convincing himself he doesn't want to "hurt" you.

He has no concept of the pain you feel, nor of the damage he's done, not only to your life, but to his life, as well. He will not "know" these things until the fog has totally cleared, if ever.

Continue on your course in Plan A, and learn all of the truth you can glean from him. If you can convince him you are strong enough to handle "all" of the truth, it will be much easier on you both, to get it out in a cannon-ball shot, rather than days or weeks of "small arms fire".

Avoid LoveBusters at all costs. You two have a lot of past; ie, good memories together. It may well be that all of this (the A) can be overcome, and you can have a better marriage than ever before. Yes, it will take a huge amount of work, and healing to get to that, but you may find you are looking in that direction as the initial shock and pain becomes more manageable.

Never say never. Lean on your DD and encourage her to post here, or follow your posts, if that is comfortable for you. She's been betrayed and hurt, as well.

I would encourage you to expose the A to OW's father, as tope rope mentioned. He could be a very valuable asset for ending the A and in ensuring NC in days to come. Any other exposure within close personal circles to people who could be instrumental in ending the affair or ensuring NC in the future would be well worth considering at this time too. All exposure is best done at the same time, and as near D-Day as possible.

You are doing so very well, although you might not feel like it right now. Keep up the good work, and keep the faith.

Best wishes

SD

haywire, I am glad you are ok.

I have a little different take on this situation. I don't think that Plan A is viable or helpful in this situation and I will tell you why.

I don't think he had the affair because of any unmet needs, but rather because adultery is a way of life with him. Adultery is not an aberration of character with him.

Because of that, I don't think Plan A is your solution. The purpose of Plan A is to attract them back into the marriage by meeting unmet needs, avoiding lovebusters. You have been doing all that anyway for years, so doing it for more time isn't going to make any difference.

Nor do I think Plan B is going to change his personality. He is what he is.

The real question here is do you want him as a H if he quits his affair? Is that the man that you want? Because you might be able to get him to end his affair, but you won't be able to get him to end contact [he will still work with her and see her at shows], nor can you change his personality where it wouldn't happen again. I suspect if he were forced to end this affair, he would just start another.

What do you think?

Have you given some thought to contacting the Harleys? He would be well worth your money and could probably give you some great guidance.

Haywire -

I have nothing to add accept I really admire your daughter for standing her ground and for having such strong beliefs, and for protecting her mother the way she is.

Young women nowadays seem so savvy, smart and strong. That is what I hope for my daughter when she grows up.

I can't imagine what you have been going through all these years, and I am genuinly sorry for your pain and what you are faced with.

Hang in there girl...you are one tough cookie, and that is cool!

top rope, SD, melody, weaver -
it's amazing how much your words help me.

top & SD, I guess I was losing patience, want it all out in the open NOW, but thanks for letting me know I was expecting the unlikely.

I don't know if I can bring myself to phone OW's father. A number of years ago, before he moved away, he visited WH and myself to ask about the situation for his daughter. He wanted to know if she had security in her job. Now that I think about it, WH spent very little time talking with him. WH seemed uneasy. I did most of the talking, reassuring him that she was great at her job and like a member of our family. aaaarrrrrgh. Is it now my responsibility to tell him how wrong I was? Can I do it in an email (which OW will probably read)? When I confronted her I told her that I should tell her father.

When I said I was tired of people not believing me, there has really only been one person. She is the client who moved to the other studio with OW. The client and I have known each other for many years, since long before she knew OW. When I knew she was leaving here, I called her to tell her the truth. Told her I understood that she was OW's client and that she would want stay with her. I said the A was a separate issue and I wanted her to know that I wasn't just being a jealous b**tch. She said that OW told her she was leaving here because I *thought* there was an A between OW and WH. I told her the truth. We ended the conversation on what I thought was a positive note and I thought she believed me. She asked if she was still welcome to stop by our studio because she loves it here. I told her she was always welcome.

I realized that she didn't believe me when the next day she stopped by to pick up some of her things and proceeded to try to entice one of our other clients to leave here and go work with the OW. I think I wrote about this in a previous post. The client she was trying to influence is the doctor that had known about the A but thought it was an "arrangement" I was aware of. The doctor flatly stated that she had no interest in leaving.

Melody, I think you have hit the nail on the head. I think every word you wrote is the absolute truth. And this is the part that I want to come to terms with: "The real question here is do you want him as a H if he quits his affair? Is that the man that you want? Because you might be able to get him to end his affair, but you won't be able to get him to end contact [he will still work with her and see her at shows], nor can you change his personality where it wouldn't happen again. I suspect if he were forced to end this affair, he would just start another." I need to accept the fact that I can't change his personality. I have been denying it to myself for years, letting myself love someone that he's not. I want to accept in my heart what I know in my head. How do I get there? If I call the Harleys will I need to start the story from scratch or will they read this thread?

Haywire

Just popping in to see how you are doing. Very well in the scheme of things, I see.

You're not going on that trip, right? I can't believe he actually thought you might! The power of the FOG defies any and all logic.

Your DD should be commended for her approach to her father. You go, girl! I haven't seen an offspring post here since I've been around (which isn't very long, mind you), so that would be interesting to have her join the board. It will be with big open arms, that's for sure.

What, thanks for checking. No, if OW will be there, I won't be taking that trip.

Had dinner with WH tonight. I told him that the OW should not be at the out of town show for DD's sake. He already knows how it affects me if she's there. He said he can't pull the rug out from under her and I said he can do whatever he really wants to do. He repeated those words "I can do whatever I want", not in a defensive way but as if he was thinking about it. I told him that he should have no contact with her. He said that's impossible with them both in the same business. I said then she should be out of the business, and certainly out of our business. He looked at me like I was from another planet...I said she could move to where either of her parents live and have a job without contact with him.

He said he does have an exit strategy to separate her from our business, but that there needs to be a severance period. That he needs to do the right thing. I said, I'm telling you what the right thing is. I expected him to react angrily but he didn't. I think deep down he knows what's right. Later he thanked me for having dinner with him. I told him that I don't hate him, but I hate what he did. He said he knows.

I expect OW will end up going to the out of town show but it would go a long way toward re-establishing DD's respect for her father if she's not there. I would respect him more too. I ache for DD if she's put in the position of facing OW every day for two weeks.

top rope - I forgot to answer your question about the attorney. Yes, I did meet with him and he's a good one. He confirmed that I'd probably have to buy out WH if it comes to a D. Because of WH's behavior, the attorney estimates a 60-40 split. That would be tough for me to do. I'd hate to have to sell our home. But maybe it'll work out...he might not force a sale, or maybe DD can make enough of a go with the business to chip in on another mortgage. I'm also considering letting him continue running his business here if he and DD can work it out. MIL asked if I could live with that situation and I do believe I could, as long as it's amicable.

MIL also showed me she's no fool. When I told her that WH still denies having sex with the OW, she asked me if I believed it. When I said no I didn't believe it she breathed a sigh of relief. LOL, she was afraid I believed him. Now there's a woman who doesn't let her heart get in the way of her head.

Haywire, just wanted to share a few more things about my situation. It would be nice after we BSs know there is an A to get the whole truth right away. Unfortunately it doesn't always happen that way. In my case it took about 6 weeks to get it all.

First H FINALLY wanted to talk to me back in January. He told me he had feelings for OW, but he never told her his feelings. Over the next few days after my questions he admitted those feelings were LOVE, but still he hadn't told her. Within a month I found something he sent to someone saying his plan was to just tell me THAT before he left me so hopefully he could remain friends with me and our boys would "never know he was involved in a relationship while married to their mom." Yeh, that was a great plan!

Then he went on a vacation to visit his sister. The poor boy needed a vacation after devastating me with the news he loved OW. It was that week I got on an AD. When he was away I found something he wrote indicating he was planning on leaving me. When he got back I guestioned his story. I said "It seems if you were planning on leaving me it would be over more than just unexpressed feelings for OW." He then fessed up that they had been proclaiming their love for one another for months, but of course nothing physical ever took place. That day I called the "B" at work and told her I knew about their LOVE. Blasted the HE$$ out of her. It was a truly inspired surprise attack that I must say was a highlight of this hellish experience. I told her H said their A was not physical, even though I know how people lie. She SWORE they never had sex. H fired her the next day, but she had to work for him for another month. Poor baby got a very bad rash that weekend. She loved her job soooo much she told H she was praying every day she could keep working.

Anyway, within a week I questioned H again about whether it was a PA. Me: "So H, you never even held her hand?" The averted eyes and look on his face answered that question. As the weeks went on he told me they hugged. When I asked if they screwed he said yes. Then later the story was he tried to screw her but he couldn't. Then he said they didn't do anything, but just got nervous and said that even though it wasn't true. Finally, at about the 6 week mark, I snooped and found her lovely love letters in which she talked about "F"ing my H. When I told him, the truth finally came out of him.

Recently when I asked him why he didn't just spill it immediately he said that he was afraid for me to know the whole truth. The reason being because he had the option of OW or me and was confused. He thought if I knew the option of me would be gone.

So that's our wonderful A story. My H never lied to me before this A. I guess you need to assess whether your H's A was a fluke, or as Melody thinks, he is a compulsive lier. I just wanted you to know that sometimes the WS is incapable of telling the truth because they have been lying for so long, to us and to themselves. I'm thinking about you and DD during this. It's so tough. CV

CV, are we married to the same guy???

Lucky you were able to find written evidence but terrible that he didn't have the decency to fess up on his own. It's the same with my WH/OW. They'll take their lies to their graves if they can. Unlike your H, there's about zero chance that my WH ever put anything on paper about his plans, and I doubt the OW ever wrote a love letter. No need to...they saw each other every day, even weekends. When they weren't together they were on the phone.

Sadly I do think Melody is right. If this A ends, there will be another before long. It's not like this is a first with WH. He's acting remorseful now but I believe it's an act, and probably won't last long. Sad thing is, my heart wants to believe him. I plan to work with the IC on this gullibility problem I have. I hope she can help me overcome it.

Haywire, don't be surprised if there is something in writing. My H and OW worked together at least 40 plus hrs. a week. They also worked together some weekends. And gullible little me even knew they were going on a overnight business trip last Fall when I was already wondering if H was having an A. I asked him if he was having an A, but never asked if it was with her. I thought if I asked H he would actually tell me. LOL! The thing is Haywire, we're honest. We can't fathom the lies that are involved in an A.

Anyway, the turning point when their work relationship turned into an EA was OW reading a letter she wrote to H out loud. The "B" saw him every day but needed that dramatic element to show H just how much she wanted him. They talked on cell phone a lot, and e-mailed & IMed on the computer. But she still had the need to put her lovey letters on his desk. I found them in his safe at work. So don't rule out written evidence. Do you know his e-mail password? Could be you might find something there. My H erased all of his sent e-mails to her and hers to him unfortunately.

Oh, this whole thing is just loads of fun isn't it? We have another similarity. H had a business partner (not financial) of 16 yrs, who was also a friend and like a brother to H for 20 plus years. A good friend of mine also. Several years ago OW decided she wanted to go into the funeral business. H said he would let her be his apprentice, which I by the way supported. Turns out last summer business partner began suspecting H was having an A with OW. People were coming up to him and asking. Yeh, that makes a BS feel like a total fool. He asked both of them at least several times and was lied to also. He now believes that OW was gunning for his job. Told H things about him and made H promise not to tell partner. She put a major wedge in their friendship and business R. He was so unhappy working with H and OW he was getting physically sick, left and moved to another state in Feb. He can't even talk to me about H and OW.

These As are all about LOVE, aren't they? Let's screw the people that have always been faithful and have loved us? Sorry, I'm not being helpful. I'm in one of my "I don't want to be here" moods. Take Care of you. Whatever happens, you have friends here! CV

CV, I went back and found some of your earlier posts. Read all of "H's withdrawal is killing me!!!!". I want to give you a big teary hug. Some of it, I felt like I was looking in a mirror. The story of your Dad's funeral, the OW talking to you, being in your home...oh lord, did that bring back memories for me! I cried. Tears for you and for me.

I searched and found some of your H's posts and am reading them. His A seems so much like my WH's that his words might help me understand and prepare.

My DD is in the same place your H's business partner was, plus she's struggling with the fact that WH is her father. My WH has no idea how lucky he is that DD hasn't cut her ties and left. She could easily find another job in her field elsewhere but is sticking it out here, at least for now. I'm sure, like your H's partner this is making her sick. I am so proud of her. But concerned too. Have talked with the IC about eventually having her see an IC too.

I admire your strength to stick it out through withdrawal. I don't see myself being able to do what you did.

Haywire, I'm not sure if I am really strong or really stupid. I'm 49. A friend of mine, the same age, just wrote to tell me she's engaged to a 54 yr. old man who is a widower. So I think, hmmmm, do I stick around with H, endure the 2 yrs. or more that we might recover? Do I risk him possibly going back to OW or crossing this line again with someone else? Possibly be 5 yrs. older going through the same crap? Or do I cut my losses while I am still cute and hope one day I'm blessed with finding someone to love me and me him?

By the way, I thought of another similarity. My H was 51, almost 52 when he began his A. I think OW is about 20 yrs. younger. Another interesting tidbit. When the truth was coming out I brought to H's attention that OW might have grounds for a sexual harrassment suit. That totally flipped H out. It NEVER occurred to him that his little princess could possibly think of doing that to him. Our MC then brought this up, told him if he was smart to stay as far away from her as possible, because she has 2 yrs. to file. Plus H was so fogged out that he never used protection. Now he can't even believe that. But during the A, he would NEVER have imagined that Little Miss Thing (as partner called her) would have an STD or try to get pregnant. Stupid, stupid, stupid!!!
He gave us up, maybe me up, for what? A woman who encouraged him to sink to his lowest level? Sorry, I'm using your thread to vent.

SD months ago suggested I read my earlier posts to see how far I've come. I haven't been able to yet. One day I will. When I think back to the beginning of the truth telling that pain was so unbearable. I guess I'm not ready to relive it quite yet. Withdrawal is really tough, especially if the WS was in-love. We BSs are going through the worst pain and we have to watch our WSs miss and grieve the person who caused us so much pain. Yep, I'm feeling kind of dumb today! But H doesn't have a clue. We're going out to dinner tonight. Maybe hear some live music. All very positive, yet he has no idea what I'm thinking at the moment. It's hard to know when to open the can of worms and when to just keep it closed. I really do hope one day I can write on here that this was all worth it. I guess that's why I wasn't sure I should respond to your thread. I can tell you this, one way or another, you will continue to get stronger. The pain will decrease from the level it's at now.

Please encourage your DD to do what she needs to do for herself. If it was hard for expartner to be lied to, I can't imagine what it must be like for her. My thoughts continue to be with you! CV

CV, you ARE strong. You have a marriage worth saving and you're doing everything you can to save it. I don't and I'm not. I told him to leave tonight. Major LB. He wouldn't talk and I got so frustrated. All he said was OW has "emotional problems". OK. I've got em too. I need to cut the losses and move on. Only 30 years too late.

Haywire -

I'm so sorry everything is so bad for you right now. Sounds like your WH is still all fogged out.

My WH is the same way - has always worried about hurting his OW. But could care less if I am hurting. Yuch!

haywire,

wow.

I have not been on these boards for a very long time, but when I read your story, I had to reply.

I have nothing really helpful to add, and if I did, it would just re-iterate the wonderful advice you have received already.

I just wanted to applaud you and your actions. You are handling this with more grace than I could ever muster if I was in your position.

Just remember to TAKE CARE OF YOU.

It got very bad last night. I wanted to die. Not that I'd do anything to cause it, but I was in the room my mother died in praying to God to take me. I hate being in this house. I think WH/OW screwed in every room.

I told him this morning that we should get a divorce. He agreed.

Believer, how are you doing? I've read some of your posts and know that you and your H are apart. It must be terrible for you, but you seem to be getting through it.

Thank you alittlebitwiser. The support I've been given here helps so much.

<small>[ July 25, 2004, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: haywire ]</small>

Haywire -

Would it be possible for you to get away for awhile? Go on a vacation with a girlfriend, go see a sister. Even go on a cruise with other adults? I realise money might be an issue right now. But I think it would do you a world of good to get away from all this for awhile.

Weaver