Hi ark^^

Star*fish told me about you, that you would be someone who would give great advise. I am happy to see that she was indeed right.

Thanks so much for the info. in your thread it helped a whole deal. It has been three weeks since i started paln A and to tell you the truth i was getting to the point of " so ok what is in this for me? why do i have to be the nice one all the time?"

I must say though that my H has been treateing me differently in the past two weeks, he stays home now, and seems genuinely happy to there with us.

There were times when i literally had to fight with him so he could stay home with us, ofcourse it never worked he always ran straight to her, and fast to after we had a fight.

Based on what i have read here i know that he is still seeing her bercause i don't see any of the withdrawal signs. So i think that he is in the having his cake and eating it stage.

My question to you ark of anyone else for that matter is What do i say to him about the relationship with the OP?

I don't want to talk about the relationship cause he is one of those who says that i am being possesive if i so much as bring it up.

I just need to know how of if i should bring up the subject of him leaving her.


____________
M4 years
My age 32
His age 34
Daughter 8 Years
Son 8 months
A been going on for at least 2 years

I just need to know how of if i should bring up the subject of him leaving her.


On your other threads, it has been suggested to you (more than once) that you expose this affair .... to OW's husband if she has one and to her pastor. (NOT to her minor daughter, that was NOT suggested to you)

You have not exposed.... why is that?

This will do MUCH more to end their affair than any discussion / pleading / bargaining / logical arguements you may have with your husband ... he's NOT leaving her because the affair is still comfortable.

You must make this affair UNcomfortable by EXPOSING it where that exposure will cause shame and embarrasment ~and~ make then UNcomfortable.

Pep

bump

Hi pep

I think that when star*fish started a thread for me she made mention that i am from the caribbean, now here it is almost like second nature for a man to have more than one woman, for whatever sick reason thati s just the way that it is.

I am tellig you guys this because even if it were exposed which by the way it is, my family knows, his mom knows, his brother knows, friends know but because of our culture some women just don't care who knows.

it is so sad because sometimes you hear them make remarks like 'i don't care if he is married i want him anyway"

Pep my mom went through this with my dad for years, and now my H is telling me that if my mom stayed with my dad throuhgh it all these years then why can't i do the same.

I AM NOT MY MOTHER AND WILL NEVER BE AND I WANT A H WHO WILL BE FAITHFUL TO ME.

That's why i am not about to live my life like my mother not now or ever, and there have come times when i was out the door beacuse i just can't deal with this whole mess sometimes.

So pep now i think that you see my real predicament. Even after i found out about the affair i went to talk to my dad about it and he basically stood by my H. Telling me stupidness like no man has one woman and that as long as my H was treating me and the kids "well" that's all that should matter. You see the kind of society i live in.

I guess i need a whole lot more help than i think.

I re-read this post again and again then printed it out. This is fantastic advice. I see that I had PLAN A a little bit confused. The overall theme is to make the WS happy, comfortable, and to realize our M can be happy, comfortable and inviting. My WS is going thru withdrawal so this is really important or she will fall off the bandwagon. I hope I have this right now.

I was making a few mistakes based on what I thought Plan A was. I was making slight mistakes, not huge ones. I will proceed as if the M is great and our family is great. I will make her look in the mirror each morning and think "This is where I feel comfortable, happy and loved". That's my goal. No more talk of what decisions she should make. No more guilt. If I make our home happy enough her own guilt, and longing to be here will do all the talking for me.

At least I hope.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Is that the right attitude <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ark:
I have a question. At the risk of jacking this thread, I must ask you something. You said in your post that plan a was about the presumption that the a was still going on. What if you're sure it's over and there's NC, but there's still a major shut down?
I am the guilty BS you described. Badgering to talk, talking about relationship, blah, blah, blah... That's me! But I do so want my M to work. I am willing try what you described, but My Lord, it's so hard. I have these expectations of my W joining in and helping... she doesn't. I keep thinking she is going to fall in my arms and come to her senses... she doesn't. I think she'll come around and want to spill her guts... she doesn't. Brief lapses in the confusion for her have reveiled that she:
1. Feels guilty all the time.
2. Doesn't like to see me in pain
3. Never knows what to say
4. Doen't answer or talk to me for fear of my reaction

These moments are revealing, I'm able to look within and see her turmoil. But the answer seems so easy to me. For her to turn to me and let's love each other again. But, she doesn't see it. She sees doom and gloom and no hope for the future because of all the hurt that she says she's caused.
ALL THIS IS NONSENSE. I love her and have forgiven her and all I want is for us to work together to fix this thing!!!!! She only sees what she wants to see.

My question is this. I don't know if I'm in plan a or in recovery. It sure doesn't feel like recovery. It feels more like plan a. It's not that I don't know what to do, it's that my pain and my needs are crying out to be met and that gets the best of me sometimes. I'd be better off just shutting up and doing without expecting like you said. I know you're right, but that is soooo depressing. We used to do for each other all the time, now I have to go on without expecting her to show any love at all! I hate that! It's so wrong!! I feel like she's punishing me for her actions!

I wish I had your serenity and composure. I'm a wreck.

Runningwithscissors -

Well, I'm not ark, but I am in recovery, and wanted to give you my 2 cents. As far as what you wife feels and sees regarding the M right now, that is HERS to feel and see. She must find her own way back, and you must give her the space and respect to do that. I saw clearly my H's way home, but he didn't. When he was ready, he found it, but it was HIS way, not mine.

The other thing is, she has given you meaningful glimpses into her feelings. LISTEN to her. If she's feeling pressured, back off. If she is fearful of your reactions, choose into some different behavior. I'm not saying change yourself, but everything is about perspective.

I used to hear everything H said to me as negative. Until once my friend said, "SS, he is telling you how he feels. This is a big deal for your H." And it was true! One of the reasons H had his A was because he didn't think he could talk to me about certain things - so he talked to OW. The hardest part of hearing your S is hearing things that you don't want to hear. Doesn't mean those things are true, factual, OR made up - it doesn't mean anything except that that is how your S is FEELING at that moment in time. Sometimes, we all just want to be heard.

Anyway, I'm getting off my soap box now. The last thing I wanted to remind you of, is this site's Giver/Taker page. Whenever I was feeling low on the giving, I would visit that page, and gain the strength I needed for one more day. I encourage you to re-read that. Sometimes, it is good to take a break from the forums and go read the site again.

Take care. It is a journey. A rollercoaster.

SS

<small>[ July 08, 2004, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

YES..everytime you bring up how crushed you are, or what you need from her without her initiating the conversation guess what?
Your Love Busting.

Please don't do that. I know it's hard. Heck sometimes I want to go out to the couch where she is sleeping and yell.."Hey you hurt me! YOu hurt me! You took a dump on our love and our M! Come apologize and apologize and apologize" But that would be a huge mistake and I was making that mistake alot before MB's.

When you communicate your pain over th A and the pain of her withdrawal without her initiating the convo
you are giving her more ammunition to return to the OM.

Your WW is going to say things that ZAP the hope from your spirit, but you must realize
"she is depressed".

All she can see right now is doom and gloom. The best thing we can do is be as upbeat as possible and help our WS's realize life can still be happy after this A. Show your W that you can get pass this A, not with words but with actions. No big ostentatious showings of affection either, just little things. Be charming. Don't be Mr. Sweep her off her feet, she feels to guilty for you to lavish her with love right now. Smile alot and be thoughtful.

Kill her FOG with kindness.

<small>[ July 08, 2004, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

Brief lapses in the confusion for her have reveiled that she:
1. Feels guilty all the time.
2. Doesn't like to see me in pain
3. Never knows what to say
4. Doen't answer or talk to me for fear of my reaction

These moments are revealing, I'm able to look within and see her turmoil. But the answer seems so easy to me. For her to turn to me and let's love each other again. But, she doesn't see it. She sees doom and gloom and no hope for the future because of all the hurt that she says she's caused.


Yes , my husband feels the same. he doesn't know what to say to me, feels guilty, that makes him avoid me...


If only he understood something:

I am no better or different than him!

I have done so many things in my life that I have had to be forgiven for , even recently.

If I am honest I have to hold myself partly responsible for our present problems. He is not soley to blame.

In the end I figure we are even when it comes to hurting each other, failing each other, broken promises, etc.

But how do we convey this to them?

I wonder if all this wallowing in guilt isn't a bit of a pity party.

It took me years to figure out that when I go to God for forgiveness, He forgives me and thats that. Even when I would backslide time after time.

I fianlly figured out that it wasn't about breaking the rules/feeling bad etc.- it was about me doing things that were getting in the way of my own happiness, in the long run. The Father just wanted me to be happy and safe. He knew what was best for me. But I couldm't see it. I was too busy feeling sorry for myself, and walking around with a face like a toilet feeling guilty.

If God doens't condemn us, who are we to condemn ourselves?

It is the enemy who accuses. He is called the accuser.

Maybe this is a battle on altogether different ground.

We can pray for them.

posted this to runningwith..

adding it here....

If you feel like you are being used in plan a then you need to change your attitude and reasons for "giving" to your spouse....

you have other choices you can chase the WS around thrusting yourself in to their vision and show them your raw pain and hurt the whole time yelling..

LOVE ME LOVE ME LOVE ME LOVE ME!!!!!!!!!!!

They can't take in and proces the reality of the pain of their actions and choices..

they will lash back ...
they will thrust the focus back on to you...
it's YOUR fault!!!!

they strongly feel the need to layer it in blame and more they can bring that blame to you and heap it on your plate the more it alleviates them feeling and seeing the pain they cause in their wake...

better to stay on their peripheral...
better to remove yourself from their line of fire so that when they want to or try to turn this on you...
you are there without blame...

take this time to look as well as your own giving and doing and plan a...
part of this exercise is really learning to give with no strings which is not a skill that will go away once in recovery..it is a great skill to master....

to do for
to be for
someone because of the joy you get out of doing it...

There is NO doubt that you do need a healthy outlet or interest...

use this fact to your advantage as well...
join a new interest or group....
and go...be excited about going...
enjoy yourself....

use your choice to your plan A advantage as well...
pick something that will get your wife's attention but do NOT give back to much detail on what you are doing...
what made you choose this new activity....

take a summer college class...

TAKE AN ART CLASS (male or female....)
you think it wouldn't grab my attention if my spouse suddenly started taking a sculpting class...
I'd be intrigued up to the gills!!!!!!!!!!

take a wine tasting class...

take cake decorating...!!!!!!!!!!

or a cooking class..nothing fills a love bank more than a man in an apron....seperating egg whites....

who was it...confess here...can't remember!! lexxy or lor or other... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
who took the BELLYDANCING CLASS??????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I love that talk about getting a spouses attention...

where were you tonight ask the WS....

oh out belly dancing...answers the BS!!!
batt eyes....

talk about an attention grabber...


WS know they don't have the "right" to demand to know where you are
or where you are going..and doing
(you let them know where you are going without too much detail...
cause it is exactly the opposite of how they have treated you.....
so they either test the waters to warm up a bit..
or they angrily ask..
use either to your advantage...

judge it yourself..
aloof or receptive to giving them info its your call...

WS are comfortable with the known..

when they know you are home pining and moaning and sulking about the situation it assists them in going to the OP and complaining of the oppressiveness at home...

change that oppressiveness and it changes their ability talk about you with the OP..
the more you remove yourself from giving them ammo with the OP...the more the OP and BS must and have to look at themselves..

no longer can they berate the BS cause the BS ain't doing a thing..

this part of the beauty of plan b following plan a...
take the BS out of the equasion and what the he## do they talk about...
certainly not the truth of what THEY have done..

time limits in plan a very very important
that's why you CAN do it...
Plan B followed by a really good plan A...

awesome...

ARK

Ark, this was the best information on plan a I found anywhere. Now I think I understand exactly what it should be. I do have a question though...relationship talk is supposed to be taboo. What if the WS initiates it? Do you refuse or just try to keep it positive?

Ark, I have need some help...
I have been Plan A-ing for a few weeks but since I read your info I've been doing a better job of it. My WH said to me this morning that he thinks he should move out because he doesn't want to keep hurting me. He sees what I am doing and can't reciprocate and feels guilty as h$%#! I don't know if that's good or bad. I do think he's legitimately confused at this point but still instists that he's happy with her and won't give her up, even though he only sees her a small amount of time in any given day.
I asked him if he will consider a phone session with Dr. Harley and he said he'd think about it. We were seeing a counselor but he stopped going because the counselor was pushing him to give up the affair or the marriage, to make a decision. I must admit, the couselor was pretty rough on him but then again...... who's in the affair???? He was saying at that point that he really wanted to work on the marriage but he never really instituted NC - he said he did but would call her from time to time and then started it up again when his feelings got the better of him. He thinks because he feels like this, it's meant to be, that it must be real. I know that's the FOG talking.

Ark, I have need some help...

My WH said to me this morning that he thinks he should move out because he doesn't want to keep hurting me.

learn to babble back to things like that...

"sweetums you are right,...you should want to quit hurting me."

and change the subject....

He sees what I am doing and can't reciprocate and feels guilty as h$%#! I don't know if that's good or bad

that's human nature...weather it through....
you release your expectations of reciprocation..be who you want to be inspite of his reactions....

it confuses them...
and PROVES there is joy after infidelity...
they need to see that...even though it confuses and angers them initially...

We were seeing a counselor but he stopped going because the counselor was pushing him to give up the affair or the marriage, to make a decision

SO why didn't YOU seek another counselor and GO??

Here's some things I told buffsco the other day about the environment of the plan a home...
I realize this post is specific to his situation ...but there are some general things that help in plan A as well...Pardon the direct tips to him...


blessed are you and any that can see where they have caused hurt....and can turn from ever being "that person" again...

you are begining a great journey of self discovery...and stand at a great cross road to see things in a whole new light and vision....

blessed are you that your spouse is still at your side...
right now
today
this minute...

so begin your journey...

start by counting your blessings...each day...
give thanks that you have today to be the new you

shift your attitude and view this time as rebirth....

seek joy in all the new ways you are learning to give of your self..and YOUR GIFTS>>>>>

If you can begin to let of the thought of doing for others without any expectations of return...
you will begin for perhpaps for the first time in your life to be able to find the real joy in the ACT of giving...

spend time with your children and marvel that those beings are here because of you and your spouse..

celebrate life with them
throw water balloons
blow bubbles...
lay on the grass and watch the clouds....

sounds too foo foo for you...
trust me.....
trust me
trust me...

bring joy to those in your life that matter ...

You want to attract you wife/husband to you...
not with demonstrative overtures of romance and touching....she/he can't see them and she can't feel you...

move to her/his peripheral line of sight and gather your children to you...

there is nothing like entering a room and seeing people light up because YOU are THERE,...
be there....

play music in the background..
laugh and laugh and then laugh more...

bring home a box of saltine crackers and see who can chew them up and whistle at the same time...

invite her/him towards you...
and rejoice when she/he joins in...

When they say something about such and such how you never acted like this before..or that they fear you will just go back to whatever....

shut your mouth and just smile at her/him..with your eyes and face...

read read read read...
you want there attention...

get a biography on mother theresa....too heavy you think...never before in history was there an example of finding joy in the simplest of giving...

lead grace before you eat....speak of the deep thanks you have for your family and spouse...

start a thankful chain...cut out colored strips of paper and go around the dinner table and have eveyone say something they are thankful for...

read "the language of love.... (I think)

bring gifts to your spouse of the simplest things...and lay out for her and EXPECT nothing in return.....

bring her a cup a coffee...
bring her a single flower...

write I thank God for you on the bathroom mirror with your fingers so that when the steam hits it she finds it after her shower....

whooo her from afar...

pray for Gods' grace and gifts to enter your heart and see begin to see the power you hold on this earth in creating the type of home and family that you and she deserves....

laugh and laugh and laugh...
rent movies with kids like meatballs...
ET

(don't know their ages)

take a day off work...and YOU plan family fun day....

you are too wrapped up in still viewing this from a selfish perceptive....
free yourself....

let go of your pain
let go of your needs...getting empty return of affection will hurt you more right now...

seek the path of giving...
pray for Gods Grace.....

you take control of the undertone of that house and blind her with your light of renewal...

seek counseling on your own at first...
seek counsel from friends that are true...
speak no evil of your wife....and find only good in her....

YOU buffsco...YOU stand at a great crossroads..pick the right path...and nothing will stop you...

believe in yourself...
you hold great wonder in this universe...
we all do.....seek your value first in not what you get out if it...but what you bring in to it..

It's out here I know...what i am telling you...
but life is full of wonder and great things...
you have to believe...
inspite of your spouse
and regardless of your spouse...
and the only joy your spouse sees or seek is false joy with an OP..bought at a price of huge pain that they can't even look at the price tag...let alone imagine ante-ing up...

and this will serve you well..better than false recovery..because if you journey this path...alone or eventually with your WS...the gifts mastered will serve you well in life...
ARK

Ark^^-what a wonderful post. I think you have a marvelously way of expressing what needs to be done. Thank you-it really hit home for me. I pray for the strength to carry it out

Thanks Ark. Your advice, as always, is great. I really needed that encouragement to continue as I have been. Too many others just insist on a move right to plan B. I feel that if he's feeling guilty because of what I'm doing, he's noticing it more than it appears he is.
I'll trudge onward in joy, happiness, and selflessness!!!!!
My kids are a little old for many of the suggestions (24 and 21) but they are both still living here and we can do some things together.....
Thanks again.

Bump.

L.

bumping up for faithinme....

Ark - Thanks. I was looking all over for this last night, and couldn't find it. There are lots of new folks here that this will help.

believer you have to search under the longwinded blatherers section to find this.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

ark...

Wow! That's a lot of wonderful information. I am so thankful I found this site and have access to such insightful advise before my WH comes home. I do have a question. Do you confront any of the lies? WH has agreed to and encouraged me to set up MC twice a week when he returns. We met with the MC once while WH was home for a week last month but the MC feels he is going "so he put a period at the end of the sentence" and say he did it. Anyway, during those sessions or at any time, do I bring up the lies about when he last saw her (he said she left May 1st, it was June 20), he sent most of his personal belongings home but the bank statement shows he has sent at least one large box to her address, he says he will not contact her for at least the first 30 days but if he does, do I let him know that I know? I guess I'm wondering if I let him believe I don't know these things and am clueless or do I let him know I do know but in a way that says "I know these things but can't change them and am willing to look past them for now". I see that doing this at home would not be making it a comfortable one, but what about at counseling?