I have good news and bad news today.

I took the day off today to study and to stake out my house. My H did not go anywhere or have any visitors. That is the good news. I think we also had a good weekend together.

The bad news is that I just listened to the recording on my voice activated recorder and I heard something that makes me really sad.

My H has been trying for a while to get transferred overseas in his job. This is something that we always sort of planned together. Well, today he called his favorite sister. I heard him tell her that he is thinking about going alone if he gets transferred. He has not told me anything about this. He said that he is not telling them anything at work yet about this. He is just going along as if we are both going together because he will get better housing and more pay.

This just breaks my heart. Obviously, things have not been the same between us for a long time. I have been really trying in plan A. Since I have confronted him about his suspected A, he has been nicer to me, but yet something is still very missing. He is not open and honest with me. He doesn't ever talk about our future together, or share with me his hopes and dreams. He tells his sister and the rest of his family more about himself than he tells me. He is still not as affectionate as he used to be as he was earlier in our marriage. I am really craving the affection. He will hug me if I hug him. We hold hands when we go out. We will have SF if I initiate (mostly). But all together, he will not make any effort to be close to me. I long to be close to him. I miss him.

The other day I told him that is has been three weeks since we had SF. I asked him, "don't you miss it? He said, "no, not really." This is so unlike him. He used to get upset with me because we never had it enough.

During our absolute worst phase, when he was distant and mean and cruel to me, I would ask him if he loved me (before I found MB). He would say that he didn't know. (that was tough to hear) Then after I confronted him and we had our long talk, he said that he did love me. I don't know, but his actions now tell me that he does not love me.

Like I said, I am really trying in plan A. Things overall are a little better, but it is not enough. In plan A, I am having a difficult time not acting too clingy and needy. If not that, then I am fighting completely giving up and LBing.

As you guys have heard me say before, sometimes I want to give up and start over on my own. Why do I want to stay with someone who does not love me? From what I heard today, it is obvious that he does not plan a future with me.

Will I ever get my old H back or should I give up?

<small>[ July 07, 2004, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: svb ]</small>

Please dont give up, I feel your pain and it sounds like quite an ordeal, but I'm finally learning that these WS's are in turmoil and living in fantasy land. I'm still very emotional about my own stituation and since I'm new to the concepts here I would like some other people to give you more experianced advice. I do have my opinions and I dont want you to feel alone, so here it goes:

I'm a H and the best thing you can do in my opinion is avoid the LB's as much as possible. He feels guilty! He doesn't really understand why he's having an A and he must tell himself he doesn't love you. If he admits he still loves you it would expose to himself how crazy the "A" is to begin with.

This is just my novice opinion but I believe he is thinking about his issues alot more than you know, and maybe if you stick to Plan A he will feel safe expressing his feelings with you. On the other hand if he leaves for the job overseas without you I would END IT! If he is that far gone that he would put you in limbo knowing you have marital issues and he would be so selfish as to move across the globe witout you then purusing the big "D" is your only option. I hope he doesn't make that mistake, for your sake, but moreso for his because you will be just fine, he's the one with the reality issues not you.

Stick to the Plan and remember his bad judgment and FOG doesn't negate who you are or diminish your incredible qualities or worth.

Take Care

FM, thanks for your reply.

"remember his bad judgment and FOG doesn't negate who you are or diminish your incredible qualities or worth."

It is nice to be reminded of this, thanks. This is something that I easily forget or do not realize.

I wonder when he was planning on telling me that he wants to go overseas by himself? This just kills me.

After hearing his conversation today, I am dying to have a "relationship talk" with him. I would love to ask him if he wants me to go to Europe with him -- if he sees a future for us.

Is this allowed in plan A? I don't think it is.

Right, I dont think it is either...sorry.
If I remember correctly we shouldn't bring up anything about the M or the A. The WS is the one who must initiate that convo.

Hang in there, believe me this very second I want to go in my living room where my WS is sleeping, wake her up and say a host of things about our relationship, children, love...but this is a bad move and it would probably set us back.

Be strong and continue as best you can to create a safe and loving environment. It's difficult but try to look at it like your WS needs your help desperately and this is how you help them come to their senses. Wow typing this is actually helping me stick to my guns as well.

You're not alone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hello SVB,

Welcome to Marriage Builders. I am 5 months past DD day and a BS. Your feelings are normal. My husband had an internet affair for 9 months. He was writing emails nearly every day, phoning and sending gifts to a married woman in Europe. This woman was an ex girlfriend of his from 30 years ago. A girl he had gone with for 3 months. He had broken off with her and did not remember her until there was school reunion and a friend of his told him that this girl had attempted suicide over him.

As our 17 year old daughter was overcoming anorexia and threatening suicide, my husband felt this enormous sense of guilt. He decided to contact her and apologise. He did not tell me this. As she obviously had been madly in love with him 30 years ago and my husband was going through a midlife crisis, things just got out of control . We were going through quite a stressful period. During that time our 15 year old son was also having tests for neck tumours. My husband now tells me that the emails were a form of escape into a fantasy world where there were no problems.

During that time my husband had intense mood swings going from being a better husband than what he had been to being a pig. I could not understand why. Never in my wildest dreams would I have ever believed that he would have been capable of what he did. I suspected an affair a number of times and looked for evidence. I finally found email letters that he had kept. They were love letters and my husband detailed how he was going to leave us ( me and our 3 children) and go and live in another country. His concern was her and her two children and not us. When I read those letters I felt sick to the stomach. I did not know this person. He had been leading a double life.
When confronted and what people on this board would call the withdrawal or in fog period, my husband told me he would not contact anymore. In fact, he continued to email her for another 2 weeks. During the next 2 weeks, he told me he was more emotionally in love with her than me. They were professing their love for one another after only 2 emails. He warned her that I was going to get him to ring her and tell her he did not love her.
When I asked him how he could have contemplated going overseas and leaving his children, he replied saying that children need their mother more than their father.
My husband has always been very close to our children, attending all sporting functions and looking after them as babies whilst I worked part time. This was totally out of character.

Five months later when he has had no contact and is out of the fog, he cannot remember saying those things to me. He is absolutely ashamed that he could have written any of those letters and is extremely remorseful.

What I am trying to tell you is that you need to establish why your husband is behaving like this. I Have only just read your thread. Is there another woman. If so , is there contact. If so, your husband is in the fog and is temporarily insane. He must stop contact, go through the withdrawal period before he can come back to you.

Good luck and
God Bless

Anne

Anne,

Wow, it sounds awful what you went through. I am glad to hear that your H is back. I hope things continue to go well for you.

I suspect that my H has an OP, but I don't have proof that is good enough. I have confronted him, but he denies everything.

His behavior tells me he is having an A. My H has the mood swings, too, though he is generally nicer to me lately than not, but yet still distant.

I am currently trying to follow plan A while snooping for more evidence.

Either way, he is obviously not happy, and neither am I. It looks like he'll probably be leaving me before I find out anything for sure. He mentioned (to his sister) that if the overseas job comes through, it will probably be around September.

SVB... well, I have nothing new to say really. It's a bit confusing what's going on. Maybe he is confused...or is having "internet affair"...oversea.. It's a dream, but not he wants to do it without you. I know how to be sneaky..how about you start a conversation.. like "You remember how we wanted to move... and " SOmething like that to see how he reacts. That's strange... but all I have to say is keep your head up.

I am still looking for a job, still going to Spain, and still battling it here.. so I say you keep it up. Do not give up or you will always say "I wish, I regretted" YOur marriage might not be lost, might just need some clearing up. Seems like your H is somewhat like me "secretive" I like to keep my plans private until I realize them.....I do not like to give hope to myself, maybe he's going to tell you what's up.
Anyways keep lurking, and keep posting when something is bothering you.

SVB

It does sound as if your husband is having an affair. You do need to find the evidence because without it they will rarely admit it to you.

You need to do some snooping> I snooped but not well enough until our daughter told me I must be blind not to realize that Dad was having an affair. I was taken aback.

I got up one evening at 3am and was determined to find something. I found an international phone card in his wallet. He was asleep. That is one place you may like to start. It may have phone numbers, addresses etc. Check phone bills, internet usage -times,car, brief case, clothes pockets.

If he is talking about going overseas without you, he may be having an internet affair. My husband wanted to go to Europe on his own for a holiday. I said no. It was either together or not at all. As we were having the problems with the children, we did not go. You may want to monitor the computer with some spy software. I believe it is called Key Stroker.

Although my husband is great now and has no contact with OW. They never met. I am considering having this put on our computer.

It did not become physical and so withdrawal was short. This may be the case with your husband. If they meet and it becomes physical. It could become more difficult.

A word of advice. Look after yourself. I had neglected myself worrying about our children. Since DD day, I am now looking after myself more than I have ever. I am feeling better. I work out and have lost weight. I have bought a completely new wardrobe of younger looking clothes. I have my hair done on a weekly basis and take care of my nails. I am a different person. I look 10 years younger than my age.My children are happy with the result, so is my husband.

My husband is worried that I may have an affair. I would never do this as I love my husband dearly

Let us know how you

Thinking of you. God Bless


Anne

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by svb:
<strong>

After hearing his conversation today, I am dying to have a "relationship talk" with him. I would love to ask him if he wants me to go to Europe with him -- if he sees a future for us.

Is this allowed in plan A? I don't think it is. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A LB is a disrespectful judgement or an angry outburst, this is neither. But I don't know why you think he would be honest if you asked. He is so secretive.

Does he have a computer?

Harudah, when you say that you are "secretive" with your plans, is that with everyone, or just with your H?

My H is only secretive with me. When he has news, the first thing he does is to call his family, in particular his favorite sister. Sometimes he never tells me. For instance, he told his sister that this overseas job might come up in September. He did not tell me this. When I ask him in a roundabout way what is going on with that job, he just shrugs his shoulders and says, "I don't know." He was also approached with another opportunity at work that he has to make a decision about. This was two weeks ago. That very day he was told about this at work, he came home and called his sister right away. I am still waiting for him to mention it to me (after two weeks!). You would think that I would be the first person he would tell.

These are the things that he does that show me that he does not love me or want me in his life.

Anne, I am thinking of getting the spyware software for the computer. I don't think that he is having an internet affair, I think he actually is having physical contact with someone. He goes places on his days off and I think he has had someone at the house on a couple of occasions. Still, though, I am hoping that I might catch something with the software. It can't hurt. I know that he deletes some emails.

What confuses me is why would he want to go overseas if he is in an A here?

MelodyLane, you are right about the relationship talk with him. It would do no good. He would not be honest with me. He would probably tell me nothing or just tell me what I want to hear. I guess it's just my desperate thinking that gets me so confused. (and my lack of sleep)

<small>[ July 07, 2004, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: svb ]</small>

uhmm true.. what I mean secretive that I do not reveal everything until I have solid proof and ideas because sometimes I do not want an opinion.. Well, I do tell my H everything (not totally, most of it...somethings are meant to be only with you) My H is my best friend, things such as job, changes, move, has to be done together. sometimes I do not tell him some plans until I am almost done, but nothing that concerns both of us. In your situation, your husband should be talking to you and not his SISTER about his plans. Either he keep it to himself if he is just "thinking" aboutit...
Anyways, what kind of relationship do you have with his sister? Does she like you?
Good family ambiant?

Really, at this point, you need to have real proof of an Affair for you to really start healing and for Plan A to really work. I know that I can't pretend to be in a happy marriage while I am not happy. MB said not to LB, just stay away from those, but how do you have a heart to heart talk without anyone getting hurt?

I know you've tried everything already. Asking him, you found some proof.. you've check mileage, found condom wrappers.. These are all proofs to yourself.. the "I don't love you" part of the fog... (all proof of an affair) You just can't EXPOSE yet. I know its hard.....but keep working and know there are many options in life and you will either have the chance to work it out with himor he won't give you the chance.
When Wayward spouses come back is because they felt they have lost something and want their relationship. US Betrayed Spouses just better ourselves on this website to make a better marriage. Know you cannot change your husband, only yourself. You have the power only over you.

I know what's like to want to be close to your H and him not paying attention or being completely distant and cold. It's sad.. but hang in there.

big hugs**

I just thought I'd brainstorm with you.. review what you've done so far and see where you can from here.

Harudah,

Yes, I think he should share his plans with me and not his sister. Actually, I have a good relationship with his sister. I do not talk to her often because his whole family is in another country. (in South America). It's funny, but when we go down to visit them, ALL of his sisters are very supportive of me. (he has 6 older sisters) They always ask me how he is treating me. They KNOW that he has a temper and is moody and difficult to live with! They always tell me to hang in there, he is a wonderful person and blah, blah, blah.

His niece and nephews came to visit for the holidays this year. (kids of his favorite sister -ages 29, 18, and 16). Even they notice some of his behavior. Once I took them out shopping to the mall while he was at work. There was something in particular that they were looking for. On the way back, we were going to stop and pick up some chicken for dinner and bring it home. Well, we took forever at the mall, and by the time we went to buy the food, the place was closed. I figured we'd just come home and I make some quick pasta. WELL, my H was home from work by then. He asked about the food and then started yelling at me about spending too much time at the mall. His niece had to pipe in and explain that it was their fault. On a separate occasion when we were alone, his niece and nephews asked me how I put up with him? I just told them that I love him and that I am used to it and I just try not to take it personally. I also told them that I know that I am not perfect, either. BTW, they absolutely adore their uncle. He can be very fun and charming and loveable. I think that they mentioned that they would not be able to live with him 100% of the time, though.

Anyway, after all of my rambling, my point is that I have a good relationship with his family, I just don't talk to them often.

I am actually wondering if I should make a point of calling his favorite sister to talk. It is not something that I normally do. I would love to tell her that I am unhappy as well in our marriage, but that I love her brother and want our M to work. I would not tell her that I suspect an A. I would ask her that if he ever calls her and talks to her about us (which I know he does) to encourage him to work on his M. I would ask her to do this without mentioning that I talked to her.

Do you think I should do this? At the same time I am wondering if this will be a waste of time. After all, he is her family. I also don't want her to feel placed in the middle of this situation.

svb

how long have you been married? Do you have children? How old are you and your husband?

As regards speaking to his family. I would be cautious. Blood is thicker than water. I presume his favourite sister must suspect or know something. It is not normal to tell your sister that you are moving to another country without your wife and the sister accepts that.

It is strange that you cannot ask your husband directly where his work will take him in the near future. This is not a LB. It is showing an interest in your husband. Have you ever been opposed to changing countries? Why does your husband contact his sister and not discuss matters with you? He is obviously very influenced by her. What sort of advice has she given? Does she want her only brother to move back to South America to be with the rest of the family. Have you been holding him bacK?

I mean no disrespect. Just toying with some ideas. Monitor his computer. If you contact his family, he may be more careful of his movements. I would be looking for concrete evidence and approaching him , not his sister.

All the best,

Anne

Hello Anne,

My H just turned 41 last week. I will be 35 next month. We have been married almost 10 years. We don't have any children - that's a whole other story. (He used to want children very much- but I was not ready. Now I am ready and he ABSOLUTELY does not want children anymore - he says he's too old)

You're right, I don't think I will talk to his sister. Even if I ask her not to say anything about me calling her, she might tell him anyway. Then, like you say, he will be more careful of his movements.

I'm really not sure what kind of advice she is giving him. I am hoping that she is telling him to work on the M. Knowing her, I would think that she would, but I don't know what kind of "stories" he is telling her. I wish that I had started using my recorder a LONG time ago.

He does place a lot of value in what his sister says. What scares me is that he places just as much value, if not more, in another man from his hometown. I can't even explain what this man does, but he is sort of a psychic/voodoo (but not voo doo) type of guy. He is someone that everyone in his town, including everyone in his family, consults with their problems and concerns. My H consults him regularly about work problems and also for personal problems. I heard him mention to his sister on the phone that he called this man regarding the overseas position, but he has not asked him yet about his personal life. I know that he will tell him that he is thinking of going alone and will ask him his opinion on the matter. It really scares me that he will base a decision that affects my life on the opinion of this stranger.

I have asked my H about work and what is happening with this position. He just doesn't seem to want to talk about it with me. Everytime I ask him he just says, "I don't know."

I am very open to moving to another country and he knows this. I am definitely not holding him back. I know that his sister and the rest of his family would also like for him to return to his country. He does also have the possibility of moving back to his country for a while with his job. He has told his sister that he would like to go to back to his country after he goes to Europe.

My H and I have discussed all of this in the past, he just no longer wants to talk to me about it. He just doesn't seem to want to include me in his life anymore. I think he just wants to move on alone and live a single life (also probably why he doesn't want kids anymore). I don't know if this is a mid-life crisis or what.

I'm back again.. SVB.. seems like you need a plan girl!
It's not just about the affair, (its never just about the affair) its about the relationship you have with your husband. I know we've been talking about him having a possible affair, which isn't really sure since he is keeping so many things secret. Even though he may or may not be having an affair, maybe you need to initiate something to "better" your relationship with your H. It will either kill the affair (if he is having one) or better your relationship, but there neeeds to be 2 people in a relationship. As I said before you can only change yourself.

I'm glad you decided not tell your sisinlaw.. was the best decision.

Now what is your plan? I know your in plan A, but women can keep plan for so LONG and its very hard. You know when you get slightly burnt and there this little bubble with water in it.. and it won't heal until you pop it and let the water out?
I think of what you are going through like that. I know its not like MB to say to burse the bubble, but it has to be done. Asking questions is not Lbing I think... just do not critize him, just keep asking question.. prepare a romantic dinner, see how he reacts.. pop the bubble slowly! Talk sweet to him, tell him how much you appreciate the littles he does for you. Try to get closer even when he push you away... I guess that is all plan B, but you know that you can take REJECTION for so long! If that doesn't work.. I BURSE THE BUBBLE!

You may not chose to do this, but I would. I would say all the things that I noticed..
1. The mileage
2. Distance in the relationship.
3. Your needs (did you take the EN test?)
4. The condom wrappers
5. The airport incident

Its up to you to see if these things were really important and how you feel about them..and how you will approach him.. (that's the bubble pop) I am talking about. Because he isn't going to come clean.
In all truth I think he might just pack up one day and tell you he is leaving and "that's it" About not having children...(uhmm) That's something you shouldn't be denied to!
Anyways, tell him how you feel and maybe you two ought to see a marriage counselor, ( I know he isn't going to be thrill about) anything to get you somewhere.

So courage.. hang in there... just take it day by day

svb, I would put some spyware on his computer. He might be contacting this OP via the computer since he doesn't seem to be doing it from your phone. I have used Starr home version at www.iopus.com in the past and it was easy to use and did a good job. It cost about $30, I seem to remember.

But don't use the trial version because it will show a banner when you restart it. And it has to be downloaded to DISC - versus open - or it will install in the VISIBLE mode. Download it to your desktop and then install it in invisible mode.

MelodyLane, regarding the software, I'd like to try it. I have a question, though, did you charge yours on your credit card? How does it show up on the credit card statement? Is there another way to pay for it? I'm afraid my H will see it and question it on the credit card statement.

Harudah, so you say to plan A as much as I can and then when I can't any longer, talk to him about 1-5? I still haven't mentioned anything to him about the condom wrappers and the airport parking receipt. (I did go back into his car yesterday and I found the receipt - so I have a copy of it now for my stash of evidence)

I did fill out at EN questionnaire. I did not give it to him yet. I asked him if he would fill out a questionnaire and he said no. I am just guessing right now what his needs are. He is also not interested in marriage counseling either. It just seems like he is done with the relationship.

I just wonder about some things, though. He doesn't want to work on or talk about our relationship. He might be having an affair. He is obviously considering leaving me. Then why doesn't he just tell me he's having affair? Why doesn't he just leave? Why does he spend quality time with me? We went on vacation together, we go to the movies, to the pool, to concerts, etc. We have SF (on occasion, anyway) He holds my hand when we go out. Why does he do these things if he's so miserable with me? Why does he keep me hanging on, unless he's just trying to keep the atmosphere at home liveable until he decides to leave? Maybe he is unsure if he wants to leave? I don't know.

I am feeling a little more positive today, thanks to everyone here on this board. I feel like I have more energy to continue in plan A for a while (at least until the next time he does something to disappoint me.) My class got cancelled tonight (yeay!) so I am going to make a nice dinner tonight.

svb, I don't know how they show it on your credit card. Sorry!

svb,

Im pleased you have decided not to contact your sister in law. It is the right move.
Your husband is still with you. Why? There could be a number of reasons.

-He is not having an affair but is not happy in the marriage and so is still vulnerable to an affair
- He is having an affair but is not sure if he wants to leave you or perhaps the other person is married and not willing to leave her husband

Your husband IS having a mid life crisis.It sounds as if he is reassessing his life. If you want to be part of it, you need to be making changes to yourself and your lives.

I have read a book that talks about midlife crises and affairs. How stressors occur in our lives and it is how we deal with these that determine which path we take.

Look at the stressors in your life. Are you both working full time and doing other extra curricular activities(classes) which mean less time for one another. How have you grown apart. I would be making more time to be available for one another and for the household to run more smoothly.

Plan A. Forget your pride. Cuddle up next to him in bed morning and evening , hug him and TELL him how much you love him and if he does not respond . Ask him to tell you he loves you. and then kiss him and tell him thank you and tell him You love him again. If he refuses, or says Why? Just respond by telling him how much you love him. Speak about your love for him.This is what these OW do constantly.
Show your love for him in your actions. Prepare his favourite meals, Do the sort of things that you know he enjoys doing.
Buy yourself new clothes. Get yourself a different hairstyle. Make yourself feel better. If you are feeling doom and gloom, you are just projecting yourself to him in that way. Have a smile on your face when you greet him and kiss and hug him when you do so. Do not worry if he does not reciprocate. That will come with time.

If he is having an affair, he will start reassesssing WHY? when he has such a loving and caring wife. Do not give him justification for having or continuing an affair.

good Luck Let us know how you go

Anne

IFG,

Do you happen to remember what the name of that book was? I wouldn't mind reading it.

How long does it take for someone to snap out of their mid-life crisis?

As for our stressors, we are both working full time and I am also going to school to get my MBA. He works very long hours at a stressful job and is currently working nights. We barely see each other. The good news is that I am almost done with school. I am taking my last two classes now and will be done in three weeks (yeay!)The original plan was for me to finish school as soon as possible so we could move when his transfer came through.

I will do my best to get him to snap out of this. I am making many changes in myself. When I am done with school we will have more time together. I also plan to read some more books on relationships. I also want to start going to the gym as well. I have lost weight, but I would like to really tone up. He has also suggested this to me. He says that my muscles are too flabby. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I will buy new clothes, too, like you say. I really want him to take notice.

I think a move would do the both of us and our M very good. I know that we both feel like we are in a rut. We both like travel and adventure and new experiences. He has mentioned to me in the past that if the job in Europe doesn't come through he would still like to move, but he doesn't know where. Well, last night I was very upbeat and said, "you know, if the job in Europe doesn't come through, we could move to X or Y, I wouldn't mind living there." They are both places that I know he likes as well. I could tell that he was really listening. I know that he thinks that if we don't go to Europe that I am set on moving back to my hometown (Chicago) to be close to my family. (I have heard him mention this to his family on my recorder) He's not sure if he wants to go back there. So I also told him, "although it would be nice, we don't have to move back to Chicago, I want to go somewhere where we will both be happy." I didn't ask him any questions. I guess my goal is to shake up his thinking a little bit. I want to project and plan a fun future TOGETHER. Maybe I'm planting a seed. I really hope this works.

I don't care if he's going through a mid-life crisis, and he can make changes in his life, as long as he includes me. I want changes, too!

It feels really good to write this out. I hope you guys don't mind. I know that my posts are always so loooonnng.

Thanks,
svb

<small>[ July 09, 2004, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: svb ]</small>