Dear LLG,

Hello from BV.

I have just been following your story (particularly from this morning as I think we were both up at the same time getting ‘wisdom and counsel’ and much needed help from JL and M..

Just to quote what you said..

“Just Learning and Mortarman,

You guys are both such a blessing...I really mean it, thank you for you thougts and support. I am reading every word of it, but the soul searching is going to take awhile. You are both right on with everything you say, scarry actually. No, just God at work through men! Thank you. You guys have helped me more in just a few posts than my last IC did in 8 months. You ask the right questions...questions I stuggle to answer, yet I know they are vital to my situation. Questions I must answer before I move forward. I am listening, just not fully digesting, but I will stick with it. Thank You!”

I agree with you in your summing up here.

I also am being helped by JL’s methods of questioning and getting me to see the answers even though I am struggling to answer.

I also believe (though I have felt like giving up on myself) that I am meant to stay on MB’s and continue with JL’s methods of getting me to see things, because I know they are vital too in my marriage recovery.

I have not taken up IC because from being on MB’s these last few months, I know I would not get better counsel (in my opinion) than what I am getting now, though I know I have to take the 4x4’s with it as well.

I felt also a bit ‘in awe’ how God can work for me in providing me with help despite struggling with withdrawal and self forgiveness issues, and what I have done. I say this humbly to anyone reading this too.

I believe the advice that M & JL give is sound and right. It was a bit scary for me too in the beginning because of JL's insight into how he says things and my situation.

Anyway, I hope we can both move forward in our lives, and start afresh with our H’s.

Kas
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You are right about that...the insight those two men offer is better than I have recieved the past 8 months in IC!

I have great insurance that pays for IC (MC too because I have been diagosed with depression, but anything in the DSM IV is usually covered)...my husband encourages me to go, as does my family, so...I need all the help I can get...I just moved, so I am going to a new counselor, I will let you know tomorrow how it goes. IC is something you will have to decide on for yourself.

I felt as if it would take a miracle to get my life straightened out...well, here it is...Marriage Builders...Just stick with it, your marriage and your sanity are worth it. Take Care

<small>[ July 12, 2004, 05:25 AM: Message edited by: lostnlonelygirl ]</small>

Dear LLG

I felt as if it would take a miracle to get my life straightened out...well, here it is...Marriage Builders...Just stick with it, your marriage and your sanity are worth it. Take Care

That is how I feel too in my situation.

Hope you get on ok with IC tomorrow.

Kas <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LLG,

You are welcome. And I know JL believes the same.

First off, it is good you are talking to your husband about IC or someone outside the situation for BOTH of you to talk to. JL told me, as my wife contemplated coming home, that this stuff is not done by amateurs. In the end, a competent, pro-marriage counselor (preferably a Christian one) will help both of you dig out the mess and sift thru it.

But......until you both can get there, it is important to take what information you have and seek out more. You see, while I have read EVERYTHING on adultery and marriage, while I have counseled with Steve Harley, I will tell you this. Ultimately, I do not fully understand my wife...or you. I am the BS, and as such, I do not understand fully what has gone on in my wife's head (and yours). What hurdles had to be crossed that allowed you to set down your commitments, your morals, etc for this OM. Sure, I know the conditions that were set in my marriage when it happened. Sure, I have read the hows and whys of affairs. But remember...your husband and I were both in the same conditions that you and my wife were. We werent getting our needs met either. But we didnt stray. So, I really dont fully understand.

You see, you just said that your H thinks it is him...that he cant make you happy. I thought the same things BEFORE my wife's affair. I almost left her because I thought things were getting worse because of me. The truth of the matter was that BOTH of us had a hand in the conditions that led up to this mess. So you see, I understand your husband. I can empathize. But with my wife and you, all I can do is understand...to trust what has been told to me by the experts...and what other WSs have told me.

So, my point here is that I can help you with how your husband is thinking and feeling. What I cant do is help you with what you are thinking and feeling. That will take an expert, as well as maybe some other WWs on here. One thing I hear over and over on here from FWWs is that after the A was over and they were in recovery, they look at the person they were during the A and cant believe what they had become. They couldnt believe the lengths they had gone to make the undefensible into something romantic and or needed. So, my point here is that you should also seek out advice from FWWs on here about where YOU are at, and what you need to do.

And that is where JL is trying to get you to. If you want your husband to trust you, you have to first be able to trust yourself. If you want your H to want you, then you are first going to have to FULLY understand what marriage is. You are going to have to answer those questions posed to you. Take out a piece of paper, write them down. And then answer them. Or, answer them here so that others can help you.

If you go back to my posts over the last two years on my situation, you can see that it was a blessing to have these people here. I wrote many things here. And it was JL, Aslyne, and a whole bunch of others, both BSs and WSs, that were able to help me clarify my thinking. They helped me work out where I was at, and what I needed to do. They helped me understand my wife, as well as they could.

So, get started here. Start with yourself. Start with what your definition of marriage is. Since you said you are a Christian, then does your definition jive with what Scripture has said about marriage?

Let's start there. You see, the first person you need to get thru to is yourself. Same goes with your husband. He is showing some wise thinking in what he told you. He is telling you the same stuff that JL is. Find out who YOU are. And your husband needs to know who he is, and what all this means to him and his life. And you cannot help him with that!!

One thing on the trust deal that I have learned. Everyone says trust is earned. I dont think that is true. Not entirely. I learned during the beginning of our recovery that there was one thing I had to do with my wife if we had any chance to get through this. I had to trust her again. I had to give trust.

Did she deserve it? Obviously not. But, maybe SHE didnt deserve it, but my wife does. Think about the difference there in what I just wrote. She doesnt deserve my trust, but my wife does. Do you understand? This is a small picture of what marriage is all about.

We bestow trust on our spouse because they are our spouse...not because of what they have done to earn it. We give love to them, we honor them and respect them...not because of anything they have done for us or to us. But because they are our spouses.

Do you think Christ gives blessings to you, do you think He gives you love, do you think He has forgiven you because of who YOU are? You are not worthy. None of us are. No!! He does this because of who He is, and where He holds you in His heart. it has nothing to do with what you have done...good or bad.

The same thing goes with marriage. and your husband will have to learn this also, if you have any chance of making it. You deserve his trust because you are his wife. And because this man's wife is held in high regard in his heart and mind. Now, you have blown it. And he looks at you as an alien. Right now, he feels you cannot possibly be his wife. Because if you were, then you would be worthy of trust. That is the push towards divorce. To be able to reconcile in his mind and heart this problem. the difference between who you have become to him, and ho his wife should be. That is why at first, BSs mostly want to run and find someone new...someone worthy of trust.

So, if he is to remain married to you, and he begins to trust you again, it will be mostly because of who he is and not anything that you do. I am not saying that you dont need to be trustworthy again. I am saying that that will not be enough. He will have to find it inside of him.

You have no idea what I have learned thru this experience. While it has almost destroyed me, and I wouldnt wish being betrayed on anyone, God has taken this experience and used it t help me get a better picture of who He is, and what He has done for me. Have you seen "The Passion of Christ?" When I went to see it, I walked out of there with one thought...I am sorry. and I went home and looked at my wife sleeping and realized what He went thru, what He endured. That every bit of His pain that He felt was because of me. And He went anyway, when he didnt have to.

God has used this for me to come closer to Him...to understand who He is. And thus, it has become a whole lot easier for me to forgive my wife, to trust my wife, to love my wife.

But your husband is just beginning. He has an internal fight now that you cannot help him with. Except to be there, and to be his wife as best you can. But you also have an internal fight. You must find out the answers to these questions posed to you.

So, let's start. What is marriage to you? What is it about? Who invented marriage? Why? what should your relationship be with your husband, and your husband be with you?

In His arms.

<small>[ July 12, 2004, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Just Leaning & Mortarman,

I have not forgotten about the assignments you have given me. I have been thinking them over carefully. There is enough here to keep me busy for days...But I will post my repiles soon.

Just wanted to give you a quick update on my day...I met with my new (I just moved) IC today...it went well, she too gave me lots of homework, and I think the situation looks good. So, I will keep you posted on that one.

The hightlight of my day...My husband call me after he got off work today just to talk about his day! It is amazing how the little day to day stuff can bring you so much joy. His sharing his day with me was a gift to be treasured. It feels like he is allowing the gap to close btween us a little. Baby steps! The conversation went great! After he hung up, he even called me back again 15 minutes later to talk again. No talk of the divorce, finances, etc. Just "normal" husband and wife dialogue! I am still his wife, and I better get busy...I have a lot of time to make up for. I have not been the wife he deserves in along time, long before my affair.

God is definately at work in our hearts!

Soon, I imagine I will be able to get him here. But in the meantime I will keep plugging away on myself...I have to begin with me. I can see a change in my perspective already. I am trying to comfort my husband anyway he will let me. I think my husband is starting to take notice.

Thank you...Take care. I'll be back soon.

Crazy the things you uncover when you move...I just a few minutes ago came across a pre-marrital workbook my husband I completed together 7 1/2 years ago. How soon we forget...

What does God say about marriage..I just read it in my own handwriting...Scary.

All the things we wrote we would do to keep our marriage on fire... Not Keeping Christ at the center of our marriage...it is no wonder it all fell apart so rapidly. Our marriage was a ticking time bomb. When my husband searches his heart, I know he will agree...we lost focus!

Perhaps I will get to share this timecapsule with my husband too.

Wow, I have some reading to do...So, I better go.

I need to look into my husbands eyes when I talk with him. The telephone and e-mail is not going to work. I need to go to him. Yes, it has only been a week since I saw him last, but that meeting wasn't good, it only lasted 10 minutes, and he was all bussiness, well planned, no emotions...no hope.

I have openned my heart quite a bit since then, and I think he has too. I have come humbly before the Lord. Praying and seeking wisdom.

Seeing me did effect him. I am still his wife, Undernearth all the mess. "The aliens abducted me", but I am being guided back to earth slowly.

So...Hop on a plane??? This is the thought that keeps racing through my mind right now. We seem to be doing better, but we need to see eachother face to face, heart to heart.

I'm not sure what he will say...A while ago I asked if I could come for my Birthday (Labor Day), and he said he didn't know. Well some time has passed now, and I'm doing the work the best I can, so maybe he would be open to a short weekend visit at the end of the month?

How do you suggest I approach this idea?

P.S. Mortarman your insights on trust are reassuring. I was panicked about trust...trust is a gift...only God will allow him to give me that gift again. I won't forget to do my part though

Another question...Husband said the other day: "after I sign the separation papers I could contact OM", I have repeatedly told him I had no intentions of contact the OM...divorce ot not. I have had no contact since DDay (May 24, 2004). So? Is he just inquiring? I know all I have given him is words, access to e-mail, etc. I'm puzzled. He also sent me an e-mail about how he hoped I would find happiness from within, but if not them someone else would be okay. I see my previous actions have lead him to believe I will seek out another man to find happiness, so I have to find a way to show my husband another man is the LAST thing I want. Advice?

<small>[ July 13, 2004, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: lostnlonelygirl ]</small>

Simply, "Tell him!" Over and over again.
Reassure him that he is what you want!!!

Reassurance from your side, "Over and over again". Day for day.................

It takes time but does seem to work.

I needed my husband to tell me things "over and over again". Even if he was telling me the same thing, I needed to hear it not once, not twice.........gosh. (he thought I was Nuts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) but this is just how it seems to work, mostly when it is this short after d-d.

Think, his world has crashed. Everything he had believed in and everything he had thought that was good about himself has been "crumbled".

It has to be pounded into his mind that "he" is ok and "he" is the one you want.

Men seem to have more problems forgiving and being able to cope with infidelity than woman, from what I have read and from what I have seen in many affected marriages.

In our situation, OWH couldn't take it any more. He is now getting divorced. (we are in good contact with him) He has forgiven my husband but he cannot get over the fact that OW was capable to do such a thing. She (sadly) didn't take any steps to make things work and she pushed the "problem" over to OWH. She showed "no" remorse.
She didn't "pull up her sleeves and work on her relationship".............so this is what can happen.

You seem to be right on track. You cannot change your husbands decision for anything but you can change you and this again can have a tremendous output in you marriage. I wish you strength and I wish you love within yourself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Tell you hubby what a great guy he is and even if you don't believe it will have any affect, it will. Tell him what a great mistake you made and what you have learned from it. Tell him that you "admire" him and his strength and that HE has always known what he wanted. (you as his wife)
Tell him that you treasure his "loyalty" and that you have learned and still are learning the lesson of your life.
You will always honor him for his honest and loyal personality.
Share these kinda things with him and make him aware that they are definately "unique and precious" personality traits that no other man (in your life ) has had.

I believe that (at least me) it's extremly important to find out from the WS what is so special about us.
My husband has told me that he cherishes my honesty and loyalty. He loves my humor and he loves the way he can talk with me. He loves my "warm-heartedness" and he loves the way I always have an open ear for others. He loves the "intimicy" that we share and the way I make him feel..................

These are things that he "now" knows OW wasn't and couldn't of given him. He now realizes what he "almost" lost.
These kinda things really made me better about myself and I was able to "let go" little by little. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It might work for you and your husband too........I really hope so.

Take care
bb

LLG,

You have gotten more good advice from MM and from BB. They come at it from different perspectives but I think you see the whole. I will tell you this, if you go to see your H, have the answers to those questions in your heart.

He will notice and see the difference in you because when perspectives change people change and it is pretty obvious. He is right he could not trust the woman he was/is married to. But, perhaps he can learn to trust the woman you are becoming and that is what we are talking about here.

If you don't change then no matter what you said, nothing will be different. However, as you answer those questions, as you look within and decide what sort of woman you want to be, what sort of woman you will be, you will change and he will notice it.

He will be skeptical, but he just may want to stay around to see what is going on. He does love you, that is why he is so hurt. You did abuse his love and trust terribly and as with anyone that has been abused trust is very hard to develop.

So keep working on you, address those questions, and I think you are going to see yourself, your H, and the world in a different light.

Just some thoughts for you to consider.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ July 13, 2004, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: lostnlonelygirl ]</small>

Just Learning...You hit it again! Thanks!

I would not dream of going to see my husband without the answeres to those questions in my heart. As I have spen time thinking them over, and over, and over...I want to tell him those answers.

He may not be open to hearing them yet, but my husband still listens. Weeks later, he will mention something I thought he totally rejected, but ah, he was listening and thinking about what I had said.

I have to show him I am changing my perspective...it takes time, but I'm working diligently at it.

I read a few of Mortarmans old posts yesterday...wow. I know the road ahead is a long one, with lots of bumps, but his story was well...wow.

<small>[ July 13, 2004, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: lostnlonelygirl ]</small>

Just Learning,

I think in a few weeks I will be ready to talk with my husband face to face. I have analyzed our previous conversations, and can see how my "talking" meant nothing. So...with time, wise counsel, and a lot of reflection, I think I am ready to go see my husband. I am not expecting anything from him, I just want to "show" him I am actually doing the leg work I "said" I would do.

My question to you...do you think it is wise for me to attempt to go see my husband now, or should I wait awhile longer till I have progressed even further?

How will I know when the time is right?

How should I approach him about it? I think he may be resistant to see me out of fear that he will let his guard down. He has rightfully built up walls to protect his heart after the damage I inflicted.

Your ideas will be much appreciated! Thanks!

<small>[ July 14, 2004, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: lostnlonelygirl ]</small>

Simply "ask him" if it would be ok for you to come and see him.

Let him know that he will be safe and that you have no expectations but also let him know that you are sincerely "missing" him. Share with him that you are going through "pain" and your thoughts are with "him".

His reaction might be "blunt" but you never know.

I sometimes reacted very cold when I knew that my husband was going through pain but this again was because I needed to see him in pain for what he did to me.
This might sound terrible but I wanted him to at least feel a little demension of the pain I was going through. I didn't know how to feel understood for the "overwhelming feelings" I was going through.

When I saw that my husband was "suffering" and showing "remorse" I at least started to feel "understood.This was so important for me.
I know that this isn't "Marriage Builders" like but at that time I wasn't aware of MB and I knew nothing about Plan A.

But I think in your situation, your husband is reacting "instictively" too, he too doesn't know anything about MB and therefore he doesn't know how to "work through" his pain and get the "understanding" that he needs right now.

Therefore you are many steps ahead of your hubby. You can do a Plan A on him and I'm sure within time, you're going to get a reaction.

When I say Plan A, I mean: Do everything to make your husband happy. Don't be the reason for any "unhappyness". (this is alot of work, so be aware) You will probably be getting not much in return but within time, he will see your reactions and revaluate the situation.

You know his most important "Emotional Needs" so go for them.(if you don't know, they are probably: admiration, understanding and conversation, right now.) Slowly and not in a pushy way.

Show him the "new & learning" you.
(over and over again, but give him space.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

wish you luck
bb

BB,

Thank you! I am trying to exactly that...I am trying my best to stict strictly plan A...no contact with OM, no love busters, fulfilling at least some of his emotional needs, etc. He seems to be noticing...I think.

My focus has been on introspection and reflection as it is now clear to me that I must look within and back (prior to A) before I can begin to see the changes that need to be made. Cleaning house in never fun, but I am realizing I don't need a feel minor repairs...I need a major remodel!!!

So, I'm hard at work here. The separation may actually be doing us some good though...it has given me time to do the necessary work without too many love busters. I don't feel I am making too many deposits, but at least I have stoppped making withdrawls, and that is a very good thing.

I think it is going to take a significant change on my part for my husband to even begin to warm up to the idea of trying to work on our marriage. I am trying my best to take the lead, I know I have to. After the pain I have caused, he has made it clear that will not work on this now...but maybe...God seems to be openning his heart already!

So...here we are...but I think I see a small window beginning to crack open. I think I need to take this chance and go to him yet I am scared to mess things up even further. The separation has been good, but I think seeing each other as we had been once a month is also important. So, I would like to go, but I'm scared of getting shut down.

Any more advice on how to approach the potential visit? Our communication is good, but I try to avoid the heavy relationship talk as that seems to be a big love buster right now.

Thanks for your help...I am off to counseling again.

LLG,

Radical honesty is a powerful tool. You might want to use it on him as well as yourself. I suspect your are right the first time will not be received well, but it might be received with politeness. And frankly it doesn't matter at this point.

What he needs to see/hear is your take on your current situation, your present plans for yourself, and the results of some of your introspections. He also needs to hear that you are a work in progress, and that you plan to make yourself a better person in your eyes if not his.

There needs to be the elements that BB has mentioned, but there also needs to be a resoluteness to you and your approach toward yourself and your marriage. You want it, and you plan on learning enough to make it worth his while to hang around and see how you grow. You need to acknowledge his pain, and even his current plan for divorce (frankly you would probably do the same thing and for the same reasons), but you also need to acknowledge that you have not given up and you realize that you have/had some issues you needed to and need to address. You are doing that.

You may get shot down a few times LLG, but don't let that discourage you. You do remember hopeful_person's posts right? She got shot down a fair number of times but she was planting seeds and she was nourishing them, and when they germinated, the marriage was back in only a month or so time. It took her 18 months after the divorce and ending her affair.

So go for it. Just remember if you can get him to vent, to get angry and let out what is inside, that is actually a good thing. When he is done, just smile, comfort him and acknowledge what you have heard.

God Bless,

JL

Just learning...How did you learn so much???

I continue to be amazed with each new post. You hardly know me, yet you know my situation...your insights are profound. You have been given a gift. Thank you for taking the time to get to know me and my situation. This past week since you have been posting to me has been my most productive yet. I am growing everyday!

LLG,

I'll let you in on a secret. The patterns here are astounding and they repeat themselves. I realize we all think ourselves unique but we are not. There is a reason people talk about the "human condition". That is because we tend to respond the same way to the same stimulii.

So I am not so smart but in 5 years Plus I have read many many thousands of posts, watch peoples lives unfold, and in many cases recover. If you look for the patterns you will see them.

Just keep up your work and you will be amazed at your change of perspective. Some even call it maturity <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , but really it is more as often even us "mature" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> people need to change our perspectives.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ July 15, 2004, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: lostnlonelygirl ]</small>

<small>[ July 15, 2004, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: lostnlonelygirl ]</small>

JL,

About radical honesty...that is just what the name implies right? Sorry I know it's silly.

I really like your thoughts on my needed to have a "plan", et...my husband mentioned that before too when I was still in the fog, and my plan was obviously not all he was looking for. So I am fast at work devising a new one. Advice?

That you for that helpful reminder about hope_ful person. I love the anology of planting the seeds and letting them germinated. My husband is slow to change his perspective like the rest of us, so I just have to keep tending to my garden. Advice?

More about the visit??? I am having second thoughts...Maybe it is too soon for me to ask him if I can come visit? What do you think? I am trying to give him the time and space he needs, but I still feel a sense of urgency. I don't want the window to shut...yet it's only open a crack now? Advice just learning...please!