BV,

I know I have missed a lot here, and it looks like you have been having a hard time.

I just wanted you to know I appreciated the notes on our thread.

I have missed you all here tremendously.

My children are already "on the move" even though we arrived home very late last night.

I do not have much time to post, but really wanted you to know I have been thinking of you.

I have had time away to see many things. Nothing is easier, but a little clearer.

Love you, BV!

Pam

<small>[ July 26, 2004, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

BV,

I know you have to go, so I will write to you on some other thread later.

Thank you for the encouragement. I have lots to say, but maybe it should wait till later.

Sometimes I am afraid the "dam will break" so to speak.

I know you will be okay. You are working it out. I also know those who have responded to you care about you very much.

I will look forward to talking to you, and those I am afraid of <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> soon.

Pam <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The following is an example of how self-absorbed you actually are....

The discussion began with the fact that your H hurts, yet still loves you .... and somehow, you diverted the topic into yet another discussion of YOUR feelings... "Look at me. Aren't I disgusting." ....... sorry, BV, the focus ought be on YOUR MARRIAGE RECOVERY ...... NOT on you.

" I know that all of you looking on the 'outside' in will say that I am 'no worse' than any of the rest of the FWW's but I AM. I have more to be ashamed about given the nature surrounding my A..
None of you could deny that. What I have done IS WORSE.

I deserved more than the 4x4's I have had on this site. Many more. I feel I 'have to be punished'. I feel I haven't been punished for what I have done. "

And here is what I currently think about your situation...

I think you have what is known as "stinkin' thinking" ........ alcoholic mind-set.

I feel certain you are "using" mind numbing substances daily .... booze or pills .... all the same.

I feel equally certain that until your mind is clear of these numbing substances.... you will continue on your present course.

No one "gets it" when they are "comfortably numb" .... like Pink Floyd described in "The Wall".

I had experience with this just after D-day .... and it all rings soooooo familiar. Our MC said he would NOT take us on in marriage counseling unless Mr. Pep was also going to AA.... because therapy is useless when offered to a mind that is "comfortably numb".

The "I have to be punished" is one of the most self-absorbed declarations a substance abuser makes... You choose to focus on your diseased thinking, rather than do things to recover your marriage.

Over and over.... "I am SO BAD a person." ..... is not effective for recovery.
Whereas "I am commited to making this marriage work. What can I do? I'll do whatever it takes." is an effective mind set for recovery.

You are not going to be ready for recovery until you are SOBER MINDED.

Go to AA...... you need a program.

Pep

BV,

It is not us you need to say your are sorry to, it is your family and specifically your H. We are just here to help. If you recover or you don't, we have no control. That is the cold hard fact.

AS for your affair being worse, you honor yourself too much.

Sadly, your betrayal of your H is NOT worse than anyone elses nor is it better. It is between you, your God and your H. In fact, it being with a clergyman is also not that rare. I said before and I will say again, counselors (psychological, physcians, and clergymen) are all held to higher standards by their professional colleagues because the people they deal are particularly vulnerable to their skills. Sadly, these people fall victim to their own inner desires far more often than people seem to realize.

You cannot be held responsible for your OM. He must answer to his family, his God, and himself. That leaves you with JUST YOU. So, it means you are like everyone else. Sorry, you are not unique even in this limited world of MB.

It is time to face that and it is time to really consider Dr. Phil's words carefully. What are you getting out of this current situation other than avoiding working on your marriage and facing the reality of what has happened. We all know you want to be punished but that is the easy way out. You think if your H or we or someone else punished you, then you would be absolved from what you did, but that is not true. You still have to face rebuilding your marriage, learning to love your H, facing your children.

BV, there is no easy way out and you can cloak yourself in guilt, pity, whatever and it doesn't change what you MUST do. You must decide if you are going to rebuild your marriage or not. Frankly, you are choosing not to. There is no mysterious force preventing you from doing this, it is your own unwillingness to face your H, your family. BV, you can run but you cannot hide. This will be with you the rest of your life, UNLESS you decide to remedy it.

It is your call. Time to stand up and march your way through this and given what you have said about your H, I think if you do, you will be surprised at what is on the other side: a much more satisfying marriage for YOU. Odd isn't it?

Please think about it. You do have the capacity to help your H, you are just chosing not to do it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

God Bless,

JL


Mr. BV

Your W indicated that you would be willing to post here but suggested it might be best if I or others asked a few questions. I have a few if you don't mind.

1. First, and foremost how may we help you?

I think the meaning of this might become clear as I ask a few others.


2. When did you notice your W pulling away from you? How long has that been?

3. What did you try and do when you noticed this?

4. What was her response to you when you started to inquire about the situation?

5. Do you have any friends close enough to confide in? Perhaps someone in church?

6. Your W has said you have forgiven her, and that is a wonderful thing, but my question is: How is the level of pain and loss within you now as compared to when you first found out?

7. Are your children being affected by this? I realize that your W says they don't know what is going on, but I suspect they have still been affected, what is your feeling on this matter?

8. I understand you are a man of deep religious convictions and I am sure they have shaped the way you have handled this in a very positive way, but do you now feel there is something else you should have done or could have done?

9. You really don't need to answer this question as it is very personal, but your W has expressed a lack of passion in the marriage. Is that your perception of the marriage as well? If so, is this something you are willing or even anxious to address?

10. I will stop with a repeat of question #1. How may we help you directly or indirectly.

I look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

Dear BV,

Besides letting everyone know RAP and I made it back, I was actually excited to see the list you and Mr. BV came up with. And I found this. I don’t think you really got my point. Your list was:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have only come up with 2 things so far!!!

HIM - Would like to ask MIL to look after youngest girl so we can go on a picnic together next Saturday in a nice scenery place for the day.

ME - Would like him to show more interest in the books I have been buying:

Torn Asunder
Sexual one (as recommended by pep)
emotional needs</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. Here is the issue. The HIM thing is TOO BIG. It is not a bad thing to do, but not the point of starting the fire. Think KINDLING not logs. The ME thing, also TOO BIG. Think a little smaller.

Look, you both SAY you love each other. You speak the words “I love you.” What you need to do is come up with a list that says “I love you” with different things. LITTLE things that are not hard to do. When you talk to Mr. BV, ask him this question: “I know that you think I love you, but how do you KNOW? What could I do to reassure you?” and write down what he says.

You also said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel ‘unreachable’ and this is scary to me. I know and understand what you are advising me to do, above, but I seem ‘void’ of being able to do such a simple thing as:

Reaching out to H
Telling him I need & desire his comfort & help
Asking him to hold my hand ‘and me’</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are more in line with the little things you need to do. Little nuances of saying “I love you.” And it seems that some of them will be hard for you. I would say two things to that. First, so what? That is what you do for someone you love. Hard things as well as easy things. Is Mr. BVs purpose in life to provide for you as best he can so that you can only do what you are comfortable with or desire to do? BV, that is what a parasite does. Second, that is why you make a list with lots of things on them. Start with the things you can do.

Speaking as a guy (and I am not Mr. BV, so I don’t know what he would want) these are all LITTLE things that would let me know you loved me:

1) Take a moment of your busy day to sit next to me while I am watching TV. Kind of lean on me or caress me. Not necessarily for a long time, just a minute or two so I know I am important even though you are busy.
2) Quiet the kids and give me some peace when I come in the door after work.
3) Pack me a lunch for work with a note in it. Or put a picture of you in my lunch. I think you are beautiful.
4) Come by the office unannounced to go eat lunch with me.
5) Call me at the office to let me know you miss me or love me. But if I am really busy and can’t talk, be understanding.
6) Give me a hug and kiss before I go to work.
7) Give me a hug and kiss when I return from work.
8) Tell me you missed me when I was away.
9) Come up behind and wrap your arms around me when I am shaving and just tell me you love me.
10) Join me in a chore or project and let’s do it together.
11) Tell me you appreciate me working so hard for the family.
12) Tell me you like the dad I am to my kids.
13) Play a game with the family, all of us together.
14) Let me brush your hair.
15) Lie on the couch and put your head in my lap.
16) Make me a snack I like.
17) If I give you advice, let me know that it really helped.
18) Tell me how I make you glad. “I’m glad you are my husband because…”
19) Give me a squeeze when you pass me by. Like if I am cooking and you walk by, give my arm or shoulder a gentle squeeze.
20) Look at me and smile.
21) Let me catch you looking at me.
22) Check my clothes when I leave the door in a LOVING way. Say “Just want you to look your best, you are very handsome.” NOT “You always look so sloppy.”
23) Tell me you appreciate the fact I take you to church or be the spiritual head (like when I read the Bible to you). (NCWalker’s note: the enemy really tries to make the woman the spiritual head. In insidious ways. This is disastrous to a family. That is not proper, it should be the MAN and too many men say they go to church because the wife makes them. You women reading this can really unleash some blessings if you tell your men how much you respect them for being the spiritual head. Frankly, I am telling you to “trick” them into thinking it is them who has the interest. Men respond to appreciation. That is how our bosses get so much work out of us.)
24) Watch a show I like and talk to me about it.

When RAP does any of these things for me, I swoon. Sadly, she is probably finding out some of them from reading this. She and I don't typically give each other the answers to the test so I need to take some of my own medicine here.

BV, you know your husband better than I. You can let him read that, and have him pick ones HE would like, cross off the ones he would not. Also, once he gets going, have him add some of his own. They should be little things like those. If you are doing something that you normally do (and I don’t know what that is, laundry, dinner, etc.) make it special on occasion.

You should make your list for him. LITTLE things. And the two of you should try and do as many as you can for one week. Have the servant’s heart. Cultivating your partner is as rewarding as growing a garden. Passion WILL COME after this.

Maybe RAP will post her list as a starting place for you.

Quite dilly-dallying around and give this a try. What have you got to lose? When has it ever been a bad thing to be a blessing to anyone?

It almost sounds like your husband is telling you he is getting enough of that from you now. I say to that – horsefeathers. You have been leading a double life. There is no way he was getting that from you. You tell him to get off his [censored] and tell you what he wants. There is nothing wrong with that. The worst thing is that you might say no. You tell him that if he is truly in a ministry, that the BIGGEST LIGHT he could have is the life he leads, the family he keeps. You ask him if he really thinks HIS life is a bright, shining star. If he wants an effective ministry, the people he comes across need to say “WOW! I want what he has!” That is the best opening he will ever get to minister to someone. You tell him that if he really wants to HELP YOU, to stop being an enigma and give you the answers to the test.

NCWalker

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

kas/brokenvessel: From where I'm reading, I believe that you are getting closer to action. Now you're not there yet, but (and I'm reading between the lines) I think you are very close to the break through we've all been praying for.

I almost expect RAP to be on shortly encouraging you to take action and this will be your "turning point." The point where you look to Mr. BV, take his hand and open up, tell him what you need, and just start doing it-taking action, that is. (Pun not intended.)

(No, I don't have ESP, but I do have ESPN.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

God Bless,
RH

P.S. Another step you could do for yourself every day. Go back and print out that prayer that Lisa said for you and then say it out loud everyday until God takes you and starts you on your way to recovery. That was an awesome prayer that should not be forgotten.

<small>[ July 13, 2004, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Recovering H ]</small>

RH,

I don't want to thread jack, so I will make this short.

Please forgive me for overreacting to any of your responses in the past.

I cannot tell you what things were like with me, but just know that I think rock bottom is probably an understatement. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You and onlywords are very special to me. I have not really said that, but I really do feel that way.

Don't go away, I will need more "gentle" correction I know.

Blessings to you both,
Pam

BV,

Sorry if that came off harsh. Some of my own frustration is probably coming through. I should probably wait until I have succeeded before I really tell you anything.

It is strange. Sometimes I feel like I need to be more like your H to help RAP. Sometimes I feel like I need to be more like me. It just seems that circumstances can be different from day to day.

Things are easy to say, hard to do. I do not understand what you are going through – this loss of the OM. But I do know it is a real thing you are going through. I can see it in my darling RAP. I don’t understand it because I am not “wired that way,” which is probably a cop out because I am just not trying hard enough to understand it.

There is a little kid in me who wants my marriage back NOW. Too much to ask. Took years for it to “fade” and create the conditions it is in now. Will take time to get it back. Yours is probably the same.

One thing I have learned over this week is the danger of a judgment. Sometimes you read things on this board that sound like judgments. Some probably are. But you need to take this to heart – not a one of us is in any position to judge you for how you are feeling. I think this forum has a lot of pain in it. I think some truths come out in this forum. And I think it can hurt you to, some of the things we say.

My own personal sense tells me that all the advice recently given to you is correct. In that it will repair your marriage if you follow it. But YOU cannot take that as you are incorrect if you don’t. I am pretty good at the “maths” you are talking about, but I had to repeat some courses on it in college. Does that mean I know it less than anyone else? No. Only that some concepts were a struggle for me. We are all different. That’s life.

If this is a lot for you to swallow, take a break. It is OK to take a breather. NOT following our advice RIGHT NOW is not bad. Bad things are contacting OM. Lying to husband. And especially being dishonest to yourself. And I don’t see you doing that to yourself. I see you just saying “it is hard.” (And SOMETIMES “I can’t,” small 2x4 for saying that, but I know what you mean).

Listen, your progress to recovering your marriage is simply going to be based on a few things:
- how badly you want it
- how much energy you can put in to it, you are a mom, you can’t “drop everything” for this
- how many other things are pulling at you (alcohol, etc.)
- how much stress due to change YOU can handle

If BV is happy with the speed of the recovery and Mr. BV is happy with the speed of recovery, then that is all that really matters. I guess my frustration comes through. I am ready to “race ahead” in my OWN M, which is not what RAP needs right now and probably isn’t what you need. Who is right? I don’t know. I will let you know when I get there. My frustration comes from the “seeming” wasted time of recovery. Immediate gratification at it’s best. ME being selfish.

I have taken a “start small” attitude with RAP. I am trying to “connect” only on the small things. That is really my suggestion to you. If there are things on the list that are triggers, don’t do them. Do the things you can.

(Another aside: But BV, ask yourself this, if some of the things WERE things you did with OM and it ignited passion, why would it NOT work with your H? They may be triggers now, but not forever.)

But by all means, keep moving forward. Take a break and catch your breath if you need to.

Take this one piece at a time. If you try to swallow it all, it won’t work. It is like recovering from a stomach flu. You have to eat and drink. Start small and bland. Sometimes you make a mistake, and everything comes back up. But you still have to eat to get your strength back. Do you quit then? No. You try something else small and bland. And after some time, you can eat whatever you want. Food has “passion” again. Do you ever forget the stomach flu? No. But it no longer DEFINES you. When you have the stomach flu, you find yourself DEFINING who you are based on proximity to bathrooms, etc. But it goes away, doesn’t it? It doesn’t REALLY define you, just feels that way when you have it. Heck, you can look back on them and even laugh about it. Your A did not DEFINE you BV. It is a bad experience you are in. One day, it will just be a bad memory. No judgment on that. It was a wrong thing, no more, no less.

Take one piece at a time. Take a nibble. If it feels like you are going to throw up, back off and try something else. Work in to it. But look to the future. You HAVE a wonderful M in your future. It is a PROMISE from GOD. If my frustration comes through to you it is only because I want you (and RAP too) to be there NOW. Not fair, I realize you can’t, just can’t seem to get that through the “kid” inside.

This whole A mess really puts a strange spin on things. When we do things for each other (both BS and WS) there is like this “tinge” or “taint” because of it. Human nature. It “feels weird” like there is almost an insincerity about “nice” actions towards one another. Comes from the guilt. The broken trust. The doubts and questions. It is like this shadow that darkens every good thing we try and do. But it will pass. Don’t know what I am trying to say to you, BV. I guess just be kind and understanding to your H. I don’t think “do what you can” is right. I think “do a little more than you think you can” is right. I don’t know if I have ever NOT been able to give a little more when I HAD to. We seem, as people, to always be able to find the strength, via whatever means, when backed into a corner.

I guess what I am saying is this. Don’t kill yourself, to the point where you give up or can’t function, but don’t get “comfortable” either. You need to have a sense of urgency about your M, not alarm, but urgency. Stretch a little more each day. I think you will soon find you can stretch even more, and even more. Enjoy your progress and keep working at it. “Comfortable” is the trap that got you and your H where you are today. And you are in good company, I think that’s what happened to most of us.

NCWalker

To ‘not be’ comfortably numb is too scary. It means I have to ‘let go’ and be an ‘empty vessell’ mouldable and pliable. Letting go means I am ‘walking in faith’ in this area of my life at the present time with NO PROPS. It means that I am a ‘blank worksheet’ ready to start again. It is the totally RIGHT thing to do, but I guess that requires something of me/within me that I don’t know if I have right now.

It's called "willingness"....... simply put, you are currently unwilling to be healthy.

I can’t Pep.

Not true. You could, however you are unwilling. You prefer to remain ill.
Pep

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 02:43 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

Wow. A post from Mr. BV. He sounds like a gem, BV. Hope you will start working on the list, and checking off items.

Mr. BV,

I think terming my response to your answers an "analysis" is giving them far too much weight than they will deserve. I will offer you my impressions and then perhaps we can discuss them as I am sure my impressions and reality will need some tuning to converge.

My general impression is that you two have grown apart in ways that should not have happened. You were not aware of her pulling away other than the reduction in sex. Not unusual for us guys I am afraid, but a very deadly thing for the marriage.

My next general impression is that you may have responded to your W's overdose and other issues in the wrong way. This is just an impression but I think she is looking for you to be the head of the household, for you to present boundaries, give her defined tasks that will make you happy and also herself. IN short I am thinking your W needs boundaries. I realize they should be self evident. However, I am guessing that she takes your very generous and forgiving nature as NOT CARING about her. If she can do no wrong in your eyes, then she can do no right either. There is nothing special only dramatic actions.

I am going to say something that will sound very strange to you but I would like both you and your W to consider this. Please don't be offended. I think you need to be more selfish with your W. Hold her to a higher standard to please you.

I will offer if I may, an example within the context of sex. It is often reported that the best sex between an H and W is when W is satisfied. Many men report that they enjoy the whole experience more if they know they have satisfied their W. Now given the basic plumbing differences in males and females, this generally means that W goes first and that means she needs to express what she needs in some fashion. In short she needs to be a bit selfish, then she can address her H's needs as well.

I am thinking in the case of emotions where plumbing is NOT an issue and believing that people often derive their most pleasure in a relationship if they are pleasing their spouse, that each of you should be a bit selfish. In short, you each need to express your needs and the other should be responding to that. I think you have not done this well, and your W is lost. I also suspect OM did this as he is used to people doing what he says and expects them to do so. So he seemed more passionate to her, than you. She is confusing selfish with passion, but there is a link that you need to consider.

So let me respond to your questions in turn.

You said in response to the questions </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

2. When did you notice your W pulling away from you? How long has that been?

This question is so hard to answer because it is a situation that crept up on us. As there had obviously come a distance between both of us, this makes it so difficult to say. I know that during the time she began to be taken up with the OM sex was never on offer as it were, and I rarely pressed her for it. Because of the distance between us, as I've just said, I never really realised that she was pulling away. When she took the overdose in Feb 2003 I just believed what she said about stress and physical weariness.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The overdose is a real issue as she has expressed that she has been using pills and alcohol to dull the pain now. This is something that really needs to be addressed even if you have to haul her into the Doc's office.

Second, the distance issue is really important for you two to address as I am sure you are aware. In any sense of the word (Biblical or otherwise) you as the husband should be very aware of her and her feelings or lack thereof.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 3. What did you try and do when you noticed this?

Because I really didn't notice I didn't do anything except carry on as we had been doing. It never crossed my mind that there was an involvement taking place.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can understand this, as many betrayed spouses, BS's, come here and are pretty much blindsided by their spouses affairs. Yet, the signs were there. I would hope that you are newly sensitized to these signs now. I also know from her that you have done one of the key things toward rebuilding this marriage; you have been listening to her and even discussing the other man, OM. That is impressive stuff Mr. BV. It really is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 4. What was her response to you when you started to inquire about the situation?[b]

I did not inquire. Because I thought my wife was poorly I just tried to give her the understanding I thought she needed, especially on those days that she was really weepy. I didn't care what the house looked like, I didn't mind how much I had to do round the house. I just wanted her to get better.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! here is something to think about. You cannot be understanding unless you understand what the problem is. You were addressing the symptoms not the problem. There is a saying that is used here sometimes. It goes "don't roll out the hose until you know where the fire is."

You should NOT be understanding until you understand what the problem is. This again is tied with meeting needs and understanding how your spouse wants them met.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 5. Do you have any friends close enough to confide in? Perhaps someone in church?

We have one very good friend in the church, who my wife has as her accountability partner. There are some things, however, we would only discuss between ourselves or perhaps sometime a christian counsellor who we would be sure did not know the OM.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps you can find such a person, it will do you good to be able to bounce ideas off of someone. Clearly talking to your W is an excellent thing, but sometimes the emotions can be strong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 6. Your W has said you have forgiven her, and that is a wonderful thing, but my question is: How is the level of pain and loss within you now as compared to when you first found out?

You will probably find this difficult to understand but, to be honest, neither then nor now did I feel pain and loss for myself but only for my dearest. Had I been to her over the years what she needed me to be I believe that things would not have happened as they did.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, in ways I do find it hard to understand, but in others I do not. But, I do sense a problem. I won't question your feelings toward your W, but I will question the message you send her when you don't really respond in pain to this.

I can see her being very greatful that you are so forgiving. But, I can also seeing her wondering if you REALLY care for her, love her deeply, have strong feelings for her. You see what she is looking for is a connection with you and she freely admits that she is a "feelings" driven person.

Now us guys are generally not or at least we don't admit to it. I suspect in your upbringing a "stiff upper lip" was something you learned early. The problem is that you then give her no handle to hang on to. She will have a hard time connecting to you because she is "feelings" driven and you apparently have NONE. I am not saying you should break into tears everytime you think of this stuff, but I am saying you do need to admit you are hurt if you are, and understand why you are not hurt if indeed that is the case.

You see I think that while we seek to immulate Jesus, we often forget that he felt real pain, he really did SUFFER for us, and we should for our spouse. The issue is what do we do with the pain and suffering. Do we then reach out in love and kindness or anger and hatred?

Is this making sense? It is something for you to think about and then discuss with your W.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not excusing what went on, but have really tried to have the heart and mind of the Lord Jesus Christ in the whole situation. Also because of various life situations over the past 20 years or so I have learned to be resilient. When my wife confided in me I am glad that she felt able to tell me. That made me feel good.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, I can take from this paragraph and particularly your last statement that you NEED to be needed by your W. That you want her trust,but you want to be valued by her. In the first part of this paragraph you expressed your goals,but again I would like to suggest that you can have feelings of hurt, pain, disappointment, great joy, satisfaction, etc, while still seeking your goal. Mr. BV what she did should hurt you deeply and frankly I believe it did based on the statements you make next. You are taking full responsibility for her failures.

Again something for you to think about and pray on. If you feel truely nothing, then you are missing the lessons you are here to learn or you don't have the love you think you have for your W.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 7. Are your children being affected by this? I realize that your W says they don't know what is going on, but I suspect they have still been affected, what is your feeling on this matter?

I do not believe the children have been affected by it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you are right, but I wonder if your W overdosing or drinking or taking pills is not taking away from her effectiveness as a mother. I wonder if the strain and lack of affections is not sending them messages. Something else for you two to discuss. What are the lessons you are teaching your children by your choices of behavior and response to various issues. I am not critizing you, just trying to sensitize you to the possibilities.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 8. I understand you are a man of deep religious convictions and I am sure they have shaped the way you have handled this in a very positive way, but do you now feel there is something else you should have done or could have done?

Its what I do from now on that is the important thing. If I'd taken as much notice of those parts of Paul's letters which deal with marriage as I took of those parts in which he discusses the great theological issues I would have built a much better household than I have. If I had realised that a successful marriage no more happens than a M.A. dissertation on the Emphasis of Luke's Pneumatology writes itself I would not be posting here now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are quite right on all accounts. But just remember you and your W need to build this marriage because it should be based on addressing each others needs in a way that they want them addressed.

One of the most interesting things about this site was Dr. Harley's recognition of needs and their role in the demise of marriage. However,it was not that people had not recognized that everyone had needs or even that the spouse should meet them. His particular contribution was that often each spouse tried to be a good spouse and meet the other's needs but failed to do so because they often met them as they wished their own needs would be met. They often assumed that their needs where their spouses needs.

It is sort of like realizing that it's W's and your anniversary so you understand you need to buy her a present. So you buy her a fishing rod, and she does not fish. You have gotten the present part right, but the selection criterion was based on your needs not hers.

Do you see my point? It is very very likely that you have tried to be the best husband you could. You have been very forgiving, very open in helping her, but you have failed to meet her needs. Why? You did not know what they were and she did NOT tell you in a way you understood. I am betting she needs to feel more connected to you emotionally and that requires that she understand you better, which in turn requires that YOU TALK to her about your thinking, your fears, your hopes, rather than listening to hers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 9. You really don't need to answer this question as it is very personal, but your W has expressed a lack of passion in the marriage. Is that your perception of the marriage as well? If so, is this something you are willing or even anxious to address?


I realise that this will only be properly addressed once I start loving my wife properly and giving her the motivation to want to get in bed with me so that we can satisfy each other sexually. BUT I do want to address every area of our relationship. She is more than worth the effort.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! but here is the problem Mr. BV. You also need to show her a path to love you properly as well. You have forgiven her but she is at a loss to really understand what to do for you, assuming she is far enough out of withdrawal to want to. So you need to be specific in many cases. If you want her to hold your hand or just sit next to you at night, take her hand, or invite her to sit with you. You need to take the initiative to express to her what you need. If it is an apology, ask for it. If it is that someday, she regard you with care and fondness, tell her. If you worry that you are not a good enough husband, express your worry and ask her help.

Interestingly, as you are asking her to lead you, you are actually leading her. It is a very subtle interplay that needs to take place, but it should NOT be a guessing game.

For example, you may not be comfortable asking her to meet your sexual needs right now, you can ask her to cuddle in bed with you, if that is something you would like. Notice I did not say if it was something she would like? This is the selfish part. You need to express your desires clearly with kindness and care. Her job is to express her desires as well. Then, as you are both kind and caring people, the rest will come along as it should. And that means negotiationg, there are several policies the Dr. Harley put on this site. One is the policy of "radical honesty", which is pretty obvious but not necessarily easy to do. The other is the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA. This is a negotiating tool so that you remove resentment from the marriage and you each end up happy with any choices that are made.

All of this will take time as she is full of guilt and frankly the more you are passive around her, the more you make her feel the guilt for you offer her no way to repay you, or work it off, or regain her self-esteem. She needs a path for redemption with respect to your marriage and your relationship with her and "yes dear" or "whatever you like dear" offers her no such path. Now you can see why I mentioned you need to be a bit selfish. It is really not selfishness at all, it is offering her a way to come back to you, to establish what she claims she needs in her marriage to you: passion.

These are my thoughts on this are they making sense? I hope so.

I look forward to hearing you thoughts on these matters.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ July 13, 2004, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

You helped me too with those thought provoking quesions and replies! Thank you Just Learning!

<small>[ July 13, 2004, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: lostnlonelygirl ]</small>

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>