<small>[ July 30, 2004, 05:54 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

Brokenvessel you said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How can OM say things which have DEEP DEEP emotional meaning to a woman, and come across as meaning them (which is important because my OM did) yet REMAIN emotionally &#8220;detached&#8221; to her, but give the impression (100% impression) that he IS emotionally &#8220;attached&#8221; to her??

Looking back it was simply words from him I know. Deep caring and loving words with deep emotional meaning to me, yet simply words (skilled) from him.

Mr BV believes without a shadow of doubt that OM used his words to manipulate me in order to&#8230;. He also believes even now that in other areas of OM&#8217;s life he uses words and &#8216;emotional ploy&#8217; to manipulate and deceive others, and though he has moved on from me, H believes OM&#8217;s cycle of deceipt and manipulation will carry on.

<<snip>>

Otherwise what explains my &#8216;pulling away and detaching from Mr BV when A was going on?

It was because I had got so deeply involved with OM that it felt like a BETRAYAL to OM rather than my H if I got &#8216;intimate&#8217; with H again.

My whole emotions and mind etc was focused on OM&#8230;. A woman (I think I read in a book) is generally wired up to give herself to one man at a time. If she is happy, sound and fulfilled in M then it will be to her H. If an A starts she re-shifts her focus onto that OM instead. She can&#8217;t do both. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Notice in these two areas of your last post that you are asking questions and then responding to answer them? Kas, this is a very good sign that you are starting to understand! I know this doesn't necessarily help with the withdrawal, but it seems that your mind is "clearing up" and this can only be good.

Keep working on your actions, as I believe you are getting there!

RH

BV,

Good 'morning' to you from America! I've been reading your posts the past two days and it looks to me like you are articulating VERY well what is going through your mind, and believe it or not, that is a BIG step forward! AND...these things you are questioning are EXACTLY - TO THE TEE- the same questions I faced myself. I have not quite come to the point where I really understand, and the questions still gnaw at me from time to time. Incidentally, yesterday was a bad day for me mentally.
I'm following along with you on this and am looking forward to JL's answers too!

JL, Thanks for the insights you gave yesterday. I remember OM asking me why couldn't we talk to our spouse's like this and I replied "we have more to lose if we do." Funny though, it didn't even sink in my own mind what I was really saying and all the implications that go along with it. But it's true...I have an easier time "speaking my mind" on this forum, to total strangers, than with people I've know all my life. It's nuts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Later,

Julie

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 05:54 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

BV,

You said so many things exactly the way I would like to say them that I am literally having a hard time sitting still to type this!

First, I realize your involvement went much longer than mine. I would say I had been attatched for 7 months and involved physically for 31/2 months. Somehow(embarrassingly) the withdrawal is still very hard.

BV, you said:

JL, you are a man. How can OM say things which have DEEP DEEP emotional meaning to a woman, and come across as meaning them (which is important because my OM did) yet REMAIN emotionally “detached” to her, but give the impression (100% impression) that he IS emotionally “attached” to her??

Looking back it was simply words from him I know. Deep caring and loving words with deep emotional meaning to me, yet simply words (skilled) from him.

Mr BV believes without a shadow of doubt that OM used his words to manipulate me in order to…. He also believes even now that in other areas of OM’s life he uses words and ‘emotional ploy’ to manipulate and deceive others, and though he has moved on from me, H believes OM’s cycle of deceipt and manipulation will carry on.

This is exactly what bothers me. I have such a hard time accepting this as truth. But I know it is. You explained it perfectly.

This hurts more than anything in my withdrawal (please please forgive me any BS’s reading this..I am really trying to find healing, and I am a person that ‘needs to think and talk things out in order to do this)

Why is this? It it the same with me. It hurts to know how I just took it all in as truth or at least wanted to believe it was truth.

OM had nothing to loose..If I hadn’t responded then he simply would have found someone else to instead.

This statement gets me the most. The realization of this fact is so hard to accept. But it speaks very louldly to me.

Simply because I think he made a move on me as (I had already challenged him on other issues at work) he saw a potential weakness in me that would respond to care, love and attention and ‘words’.

I look back and remember our friendship before the A started. I almost can remember exactly when OM’s attitude changed towards me. We seemed to have a very normal friendship. I believe he started to see my weaknesses and maybe loneliness (with H being gone). He zoned in from then on out. I am so ashamed of those weaknesses now because he was able to so easily manipulate because of them.


NC you are right. I understand that concept. I know the ‘in love’ feelings is what I crave and almost live for, because they are the sort which ‘kindles something in me’.

It was these ‘in love’ feelings I had with OM I realize that.

I truly want to feel that now for H and forget totally about my mistakes with OM.

This is me exactly.

I am desperately searching for something that will instantly zap me to feeling that way for H and so we can live ‘happily ever after’ as it were and get my juices (?) as you put it going. I really do need a large large gigantic fruit squeezer and blender.

I laughed so hard at this. I have not thought of this imagery before <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , but I have almost begged God to “zap” me so the feelings would be in the right place.

Frankly I don’t know at the moment. OM didn’t have to do anything much really it was just the ‘feelings and senses’ he aroused in me.

I need to be more willing, like you BV, to make these small lists and baby steps. I have been so afraid, I have just avoided all of the small things I could do.

Like you, I don’t know what aroused those feelings. They were just there. But I know “true love” was not. My mind is out there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


Mind you if I burst out laughing if he does, is that a good or bad thing???!!I don’t think it will help matters but I know I am just dying to see his face!!

I cringed when I read H’s post to Mr. BV. I too would be tempted to laugh. Maybe nerves? Maybe it would be good to see him all riled up? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sorry to make such a long post. You said so beautifully all that is going on in me.

Onlywords,

I feel bad that I did not post more to you yesterday. I felt you were struggling some when I would read your posts. I even made a comment to H. I know for me, H going back to work means I have to make a much stronger mental effort to think correctly. I know you are doing great! Don’t get me wrong. Just know I understand. You are an inspiration, and I really do listen to your strong advice. It is practical, and maybe I feel like I can handle the small things you say to do.

Blessings,

Pam
PS Sorry to post so long! Thanks though!

BV,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Have you seen Shrek 11 yet? Remember that ‘love potion’ that the fairy godmother wanted the princess to take so that princess would fall in love with prince charming instead of Shrek?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. I have seen the movie. Here is my take on it. There were two ogres that were expressing love to each other in ways that would be unnatural to the rest of us. But it was not to them.

That is the purpose of the list thing.

We are raised in our cultures and given this fairy tale image of love.

Things like “If it doesn’t come from the heart, it’s not true love.”

I think that is a load of cr@p. What happens is we then think that if our spouses (men and women are guilty of this) can’t figure out what it is that speaks love to us, then they don’t really love us. A nice, romantic ideal that there is a prince or princess out there who just “knows us.” I would say if it sounds too go to be true, it probably is.

Look at a different situation. Your kids. Heck, they are genetically HALF YOU. Your spouse is not genetically you AT ALL so if there is a chance of you KNOWING what someone else needs, it is your children.

And what happens? You bring home this bundle of joy and it is the cutest, most lovable thing you have ever seen!

Then it starts crying.

All of a sudden you are trying to get it to STOP crying. To show it love. Remember that? How many different things did you try to get your kids to stop crying? To show them love. You REALLY LOVED THEM, but still had to LEARN to speak it to them. Trial and error. Patience and consistency. That’s what wins the hearts of your kids. And kids DO forgive you for your mistakes. Why? They haven’t lived long enough to be hurt enough to be AFRAID to forgive and let someone close.

And even still, you don’t get it right all the time because they change and grow. Just like we do. My oldest son (13) will get dejected and mope around and I will try to show him love. I could ALWAYS get him smiling and happy about 4 years ago. I had learned his “list.” Now most of the things on his “9 year old list” just annoy him today. So I have to re-learn the new list.

And I will. Because I love him. THAT is love. He doesn’t look at me and think I don’t love him because I don’t know his list. He looks at me and thinks I am an annoying geek because I don’t know his list.

Oh no. We only reserve the “unmeetable standards bar” for our spouses. THEY should know. Good God, after all WE do for THEM they DARN WLL BETTER KNOW.

Why? Why should they know?

“After all WE do for THEM…” Hmmm.

What if one of your kids was upset at another for some transgression. Imagine one of them indignant. Stomping around. That high-pitched “I HAVE BEEN WRONGED” voice. And you tell this kid to stop, and be kind to the sibling, and to understand that the sibling is different (the lecture usually reserved for the older kid who “forgets” he was young once, too). And this kid is looking at you defiant and indignant about how unfair life is. And he hits you with the line like “After ALL I do for HIM..” or “After ALL I put up with..”

What’s going through your head then? I bet it is something like “After all YOU put up with!?!? GRR. GRR. GRR.” I KNOW you all have been there. You CAN’T have kids and NOT have been there. What are you thinking about your kid when he is like that? “What a selfish brat, how could I have raised a kid like that.” Or something like that.

If the shoe fits, WEAR IT.

How is that different from how we generally treat our spouses? We tend to expect them to KNOW us. Why? Did you come with a manual when you were married? I didn’t. I got married years ago and have been modified since, so the old manual wouldn’t work anyway.

You have to TELL them how you work. They have to be INTERESTED in what you are saying.

You have to TELL them what makes you happy and UNDERSTAND that they may not be able to DO everything that makes you happy. But they should do as much as they CAN. That is love.

It is so easy for us to do it for our children. We ALWAYS make the effort to re-learn their lists. And what do we give our spouses? Table scraps.

I’ll beat you to your own whine… “But NCW, my spouse USED to be like that, he just knew!” I am examining my early relationship with RAP right now. When we both “just knew.” I don’t have any conclusions yet, but I have suspicions. That “in love” chemistry, that high, felt so good we would do anything for it. So when I was head over heels stupid for RAP back in the day, I was trying EVERYTHING to let her know I loved her. She hadn’t been hurt enough by me then, so the WRONG THINGS went by unnoticed. And I was just firing all the guns, so from the sheer volume of fire it FELT LIKE I knew to her. She did the same for me.

But that was before we had time to hurt one another. Before we began to notice the misses as well as the hits. Before we had kids to divide our attentions. Before all the EXCUSES to put one another on the back burners. Yeah. I think the passion faded over time, but the love deepened. And I think our EXPECTATIONS grow until they cannot be met. Then along comes OP. With no long term hurts and no EXPECTATIONS. Why wouldn’t that “in love” feeling be there?

So is it “fake” to tell your spouse what you want? The world tells us that is so. They should just know, remember? I don’t think so. Your spouse is expressing love to you in a way that is natural to them. They express it based on how they learned it from their parents. They express it in the ways they want it. That is all natural to them. So you tell them “No honey, that is not what I want, do this for me…”

Is that really fake? Because you had to tell them?

Or is that really love because they had to act contrary to their nature to do it and they are still willing to for YOU.

I have been really depressed at work. I am a hard worker. This situation has made me depressed and I can’t focus at work anymore and I am worried greatly about this. Part of me feels that RAP doesn’t appreciate what I do slogging away at my job. I “know” she appreciates it, but it just doesn’t “feel” like it because she doesn’t say it to me in a way I hear it. Know what I did to RAP this morning before I left for work? I TOLD her to hug me, and she did. I TOLD her to kiss me, and she did. I TOLD her to say “Go get ‘em, tiger,” and she did. And today I feel great. Doesn’t feel fake. Definitely won’t feel fake if I give her the time to learn this line on my list and she does it without prompting. And she will, because she loves me.

So what now? I, for one, am not going to let this beat me. I am going to learn my spouses list and keep her on the front burner as much as I can.

Do I wish she never had the A? Of course. But part of me is glad she did. Part of me needed to see what I was doing. You pay attention to the back burner when the food catches fire. Strange how life works, isn’t it? Not really, though. It is how God works, and it just seems strange to us because we can’t fathom Him.

RAP,

I am truly sorry for what I allowed our marriage to become. I do appreciate you reaching out to me and trying with me. I know it will take time and I still love you. Princess OR ogre, you are still my choice.

Half dozen fish,

NCWalker

Well BV you have quite a thread going now. I thought I would spend a few moments responding to your questions. Actually, you have already gotten many of the answers perhaps my phrasing will add a new slant. You stated </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have some wonderful precious memories of standing by each other in difficult times and the children being born and growing up, and we seemed so CLOSE in those married years. Our whole lives centred around our lovely children and we went out loads as a family together in those early years. Fun times and laughter as it were.

Now we are at the ‘critical’ stage as I expect many are in our situation….The kids growing up and more independent. It gives me & Mr BV more time as a couple. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh! Yes the critical stage. You pointed out something that I think is very common and very deadly. It seems to afflict women more than men, but there is a male equivalent.

You focused on the children. There safety, growth, education, happiness was paramount. You did NOT focus on Mr. BV but he like most of us guys understood and backed off. Afterall we want the kids to be happy and well brought up and YOU are doing a great job. Guess what this leads to? Yup, drawing apart. Women seem to suffer this around 40 something because that is sort of the gestation time of a teenager from the normal age of marriage.

So all of a sudden Mom is not really Mom any more, she is MOTHER. Dad has withdrawn into his work because he has gotten used to NOT being the focus or even interest in W’s life. So MOTHER <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> looks around and sees a distant H, teenagers that really don’t ANY adults around and surely not there PARENTS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> And life seems empty. How am I doing?

Further, if you doubt that I am close consider what you said later. I can focus on only ONE man at a time. Well, your focus was on the kids, NOT your H. Hence when you reemerge into the world, the kids are pulling away. H has pulled away, and… you are lost.

The close analogy for men is when they retire, same loss of focus.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yet, crazy enough we realise we don’t know how to cope with this in a way?

Well I guess that isn’t totally true. We do. ..If I hadn’t had A then we would be carrying on our comfortable but happy to us routine together. Yet JL I came to the point just before A and realised I was LONELY. Lonely and scared of the future.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course, your life was changing phases. So let me guess, you threw yourself into your job at the church. You became very useful and valuable to OM, to talked to OM about your sense of loss. He offered sage advice about this and other things and AND… Boom you are off and running in an affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My life may still be before me at only 41 but I was LONELY in my M. It suddenly hit me one day when I woke up? I passed it off thinking ‘hey whats up with me’ but I though it was just me at my time of life.

Then suddenly I got involved in the A with OM. Emotional (deeply) before phys. Real ‘connection’ so to speak in my mind.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yup, this is a very normal story and BV I don’t know you better than your H. I just know this story very very well. Here is the part that is just going to drive you crazy. YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL. Many that have posted here, many that I have known in my life, and even more to come will do exactly the same thing, and yes even with clergymen.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That just pushes me & Mr BV even further apart. Infact I still don’t know to this day why he didn’t see any signs of how withdrawn and pulling away from him I was?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes you are right and you are right for another reason. Your life is/was changing as the kids grow up. You have more time, you are seeking a new focus, BUT…your H’s life has not changed YET. So he is not aware of your crisis. He cannot be. For one thing he is probably like me, he thinks it is great that the kids are growing up, getting ready to leave. He thinks it is great that you have more time on your hands. And he is NOT in the crisis of figuring out his future, YET.

BV, if you read here long enough, you will realize something very important: people (men or women) don’t see signs unless they are looking for them. And usually they only look for signs when they are aware of a problem. So the problem goes undetected until it becomes serious.

This is very much like brain tumors. Usually, they are only detected when a person is all of a sudden unable to do something like see, walk, taste, etc. Something drastic has to happen before most are detected. This is no different.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He still kept holding the fort at home, and plodding on, thinking I was still there but infact he didn’t even realise I had left him in spirit and body as it were?

How come JL??</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The answer to that at least in my mind is obvious. You had left him in spirit and body many years ago to be a Mom, and YOU did not know it. He knew, he just adjusted and kept on doing what he vowed to do. You are the one that did not realize you had left. You had ceased to worry about his needs when the children came. Had he voiced any protest you would have told him to “grow up can’t you see the children NEED my more.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He was so caring and supportive and doing so much for me, which is part of the reason why I feel so GUILTY and ASHAMED for what I did to him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As you should BV. Unfortunately the guilt did not stop you, so you are left with the remorse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess we were so ‘comfortable with each other and our routines’ that things were going fine. Neither of us imagined we would one day face this in our M.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most people don’t BV. I am sure you two didn’t, but you did not realize how you had left him so many years ago. So when OM comes, it is like someone throws water in your face, and you realize your H is not where you left him.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I realised one thing today.. By posting so much on here, it has had quite a positive effect on the time I spend thinking of OM.

So even though you guys may not think I am getting ‘it’ I am..Slowly and surely.. I am.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes as someone said as you give voice to this and discuss it, the connections will be made and you will begin to see all of this in a different light. It is perception thing. Just as you thought your H was not sensitive to you, while it was you that pulled away years ago. As you see these things, you will be able to put your marriage back together, but the pieces will fit differently, for you and your H have been profoundly affected by this.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thinking of OM causes me deep emotional pain for that reason. A part of me that really does still need to be healed deep inside of me. Because my A was deeply Emotional first before phys, I understand that I need emotional healing from it.

JL, you are a man. How can OM say things which have DEEP DEEP emotional meaning to a woman, and come across as meaning them (which is important because my OM did) yet REMAIN emotionally “detached” to her, but give the impression (100% impression) that he IS emotionally “attached” to her??

Looking back it was simply words from him I know. Deep caring and loving words with deep emotional meaning to me, yet simply words (skilled) from him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BV do you realize that you LISTEN to me. That you seem to attach significance to my words, but you don’t know me, have never seen me and in all likelihood never will? Yet, I am detached from you, but I am affecting you. Don’t you see how easy this is? You will soon be doing this while you help others here. What helps with the detachment? I have a goal as you will when you post to other people, it is to help them in this case. But, if the goal was something else, the detachment would be as easy. I am not saying OM did not have feelings for you.

But he would not and could not do what your H did. He “He was so caring and supportive and doing so much for me, which is part of the reason why I feel so GUILTY and ASHAMED for what I did to him.” Don’t you see this is REAL love. It is the stuff of really good romance novels. Because it is love coupled with a promise, a vow, and it has endured. Once you start to clear the fog, I think you are going to come to see this as a very special thing. I know you don’t now, hence the focus on OM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mr BV believes without a shadow of doubt that OM used his words to manipulate me in order to…. He also believes even now that in other areas of OM’s life he uses words and ‘emotional ploy’ to manipulate and deceive others, and though he has moved on from me, H believes OM’s cycle of deceipt and manipulation will carry on.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe the same as MR BV. Your OM has done this before, he will do it again, and he does it constantly in his profession. And a truly believe that OM will carry on in this manner because he has not paid the price and will avoid the price until he meets his maker.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have had LB’s about this in the past because I can’t accept that about OM. It is too painful to admit it that I allowed myself (a previously sane and committed worker in the church) to be deceived by words and emotional (help me please) side of OM.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you can believe what you want but the data sides with your H. As for why you did it? Reflect on what I said earlier about your situation. You were vulnerable, you were searching for something you already had but left behind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This hurts more than anything in my withdrawal (please please forgive me any BS’s reading this..I am really trying to find healing, and I am a person that ‘needs to think and talk things out in order to do this)

You are so right in your statement above JL. Otherwise what explains my ‘pulling away and detaching from Mr BV when A was going on?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You already had pulled away, and you would need to pull further away in order to justify you’re A. You knew it was wrong, and therefore your H must become the bad guy for you to do this. It is normal, it is how people keep their sanity, and it is part of the fog. In the fog history gets rewritten, in recovery history gets rediscovered. Why do you think I speak of your H so much? It is to awaken to your REAL history, not the one you used to justify the A. Your H was more aware of things than you think or he admits, but he was powerless, because of lack of information.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was because I had got so deeply involved with OM that it felt like a BETRAYAL to OM rather than my H if I got ‘intimate’ with H again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seems this is a very normal feeling especially among women. And that is why changing perspective again is so essential. You are not there yet, but you will be, because eventually you will recognize your H for the man he is and what he has withstood for you. Then you will be willing to become intimate again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My whole emotions and mind etc was focused on OM…. A woman (I think I read in a book) is generally wired up to give herself to one man at a time. If she is happy, sound and fulfilled in M then it will be to her H. If an A starts she re-shifts her focus onto that OM instead. She can’t do both.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This seems to be true when children are involved as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is me. I cracked up because I couldn’t do both at the same time. I couldn’t love H and OM. I had to choose. And for 16 months I chose OM and therefore all my focus love and energy was going to him.Yet now it is over with OM, I feel I can't (at this time anyway)go to H for healing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Has it occurred to you that of all the things you did with and for OM, probably the two things you did that hurt your H the most and cause the deepest pain is that you lied to your H, and you CHOSE another man over him. You are worrying about go to H for healing, but it needs to be said here, your H will need healing even more. You need to understand that this is NOT all about you, your H and your marriage sustained a huge blow. He needs YOUR help. But, he thinks you will never rise to meet the challenge so he gives you little to do, asks little of you, and tries to carry on. This is sad and it is something you both need to address. He cannot be your father anymore, which means you are going to have to stand up and face your self and then help your husband.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That also explains how OM managed to still maintain some sort of ‘public relationship’ with his W whilst deceiving her at the same time.?

It hurts to read it in the above statement because it is the hard cold facts which are always hard to face.

OM had nothing to loose..If I hadn’t responded then he simply would have found someone else to instead.

That cuts to the core because I know (remember I worked with him) that’s how he worked.

If someone in general didn’t go along with him, they were (in his mind) out of the equation, and he would (and did) seek out others who would respond and agree with him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So now is your H right or wrong in his assessment of OM? You got it! He is right. Yo have the data yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may all be wondering why and how on earth did I get involved with OM then, if that is how I saw him ‘from the inside as it were even before A’

Simply because I think he made a move on me as (I had already challenged him on other issues at work) he saw a potential weakness in me that would respond to care, love and attention and ‘words’.

If he could get me to respond (which I fell for and did), then I would get so attached to him that I would not expose or challenge him in the other areas.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now reflect back on what I said earlier about your situation in life. You will see answers to these questions now. You will begin to see the thread and you will begin to see that while your H has some changes to make, the biggest thing that could have prevented this is if YOU had been paying attention to your H rather than OM and if you had not pulled away years ago.

Are you beginning to see the patterns that repeat and repeat from story to story? Are you beginning to see away out of this, and a way for you and your H to be happy? You should. AS you ask and truly answer your own questions and see the posts here you will begin to see the patterns and your perspective will change from ME, to us.

Think about that BV.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 05:55 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 06:00 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 06:01 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

BV,

I am so sorry. Are you okay? Is Mr. BV upset by what NC said?

I know H did not mean any harm, but I did tell him I thought his post might be a little more than Mr. BV could handle at this moment.

I am sorry if that is part of the problem.

Let us know how you are.

Pam

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

BV,

Glad to hear from you.

Please pass this on to your husband, from me. Man to man. BS to BS.

First – It is great that he is “broken up.” It means that he is MOLDABLE. A broken heart and a contrite spirit has yet to be denied. He knows this inside, but has forgotten it through the pain.

Second – There is NO BLAME here. That was also hard for me. The difference between RESPONISBILITY and BLAME. I am NOT to blame for my M before the A, but I am RESPONSIBLE for it. He needs to understand this. The H he was comes from a model in a M he saw (his own parents) and to a lesser degree his own choices, your choices and the circumstances of your M – how old you were, when you had kids, etc. But he needs to be told that there is NO BLAME for his actions. He did the best he could with what he had and what he could figure out on his own. Where is the wrong there? We are not TOLD or TAUGHT how to be H & W to one another. Sadly, it takes an event like an A to get our attention. ROM 8:28 (I think) – All things can be turned to good.

Third – There is NO SHAME here. It takes and INCREDIBLE amount of strength for a man to admit a mistake. Especially to his wife. That is just how we are made. He may “feel weak” for being broken up about this. He may “feel guilt” for what he has done. But the truth is he has GREAT STRENGTH for facing those demons. Very difficult to do. Please tell him this. Coming to grips with this is ADMIRABLE.

Fourth – TODAY is the first day of the rest of his life. TODAY is the day he can start BEING the husband of noble character. The old parable with the adulteress and the “He who is without sin..” line ENDS with Jesus telling her “Go and sin no more…” TODAY is the day he can do that.

Fifth – It will be HARD. What is there in this world that has value that is NOT hard? But tell him to consider this: serious steps taken NOW to rebuild will be seen, learned and digested by YOUR CHILDREN. How is that for a “gift” to pass on to them? Better than wealth. He needs to BE the example of what a H can be. He definitely has it in him. If he did not, he would have rejected what JL, I and others have said. But look where he is.

“Broken up.”

That is not bad, or shameful, or even pathetic. It is WONDERFUL. It is a sign of dynamics and change. It is a sign he understands the “old” M was not acceptable. I am in recovery myself and I am excited about it because I have gone through the SAME THING. I would guess that all the old timers here who have recovered and make the statement that their M is stronger than ever would second my opinion.

Tell him to POST. It is wonderful to say what you feel and FIND OUT that YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

I am truly sorry that he is “broken up” but it is JOYOUS NEWS. Consider how rare and precious this opportunity is to the two of you. BOTH of you contrite and repentant. Consider how much that will EMPOWER the good Lord to do an AMAZING work in your M.

6 months from now I want to see Mr. BV on the photo thread. In a loin-cloth. WITH a smile. He’ll be there.

NCWalker

BV,

Please tell Mr. BV that I am ready to rumble with him over all this (in a good-natured, constructive way).

And I will break him, for I pull no punches and have a half dozen fish.

And I am sad and hurt that JL didn't even RESPOND to my new signature line. His heart may be big, but his shoulder is cold, cold, cold.

NCWalker (Worrying about how the fish will smell in a couple of days.)

I'm sorry NC, I did not notice the signature line. Please accept my apologies.


BV,

Now let me see, you were saying something about the"same old Mr. BV plodding along", not showing emotions, not caring. Is that the jist of it??

Now have a look BV, yup he is a real human being big as life. As he thinks on this he will indeed feel he failed, but he did not. He noticed more than you realized, and he was warning you, but he really had a hard time believing you would chose to have an A, although he understood OM very well. But, he did notice BV, that is the point.

Do you know how to help him? It is not done with words so much as holding him? Seeing him for who he is, someone very distraught be what he preceives to be HIS failure. He did not fail you and you know that, but he is probably wondering where the W he loved is. He probably remembers you as someone that was/is very compassionate. Someone who would go the extra mile for a friend or somone hurt.

Well, BV...when are you going to let the real you back out, and quit holding her hostage to your guilt. It is time to comfort him. It is time to rethink what you have read.

I fear I hurt Mr. BV with my responses and for that I am very sorry, but I am glad that you are getting to see that he does have feelings. And I think he fears failing you more than you realize.

Reread this thread, and help your H BV.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 06:03 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

Advice from a higher source:

When one finds a worthy wife, her value is far beyond pearls.

Her husband, entrusting his heart to her, has an unfailing prize.

She brings him good, and not evil, all the days of her life.

She obtains wool and flax and makes cloth with skillful hands.

Like merchant ships, she secures her provisions from afar.

She rises while it is still night, and distributes food to her household.

She picks out a field to purchase; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

She is girt about with strength, and sturdy are her arms.

She enjoys the succuess of her dealings; at night her lamp is undimmed.

She puts her hands to the distaff, and her fingers ply the spinle.

She reaches out her hands to the poor, and extends her arms to the needy.

She fears not the snow for her household; all her charges are double clothed.

She makes her own coverlets; fine linen and purple are her clothing.

Her husband is prominent at the city gates as he sits with the elders of the land.

She makes garments and sells them, and stocks the merchants with belts.

She is clothed with strength and dignity, and she laughs at the days to come.

She opens her mouth in wisdom, and on her tongue is kindly counsel.

She watches the conduct of her household, and eats not her food in idleness.

Her children rise up and praise her, her husband, too, extols her.

Many are the women of proven worth, but you have excelled them all.

Charm is deceptive and beauty fleeting; the woman who fears the Lord is to be praised.

Give her a reward of her labors, and let her works praise her at the city gates.

believer,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She watches the conduct of her household, and eats not her food in idleness.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Impressive display of courage, what with all the chocoholics around here. Your goin down in flames for that one.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

NCWalker

NC - We have had our ups and downs. But I really respect you as a man. RAP has her hands full.

Believer,


RAP has her hands full.

Say it again, I don’t think he heard you the first time.

I know where to go when he is driving me crazy now.

Blessings,

Pam