BV,

Are you still there?

Pam

BV,

Confession is good for the soul and I am sure it will unburden you. I think you are worrying that the couple will not be strong enough to handle your confession properly. This is something you and Mr. BV need to address.

Enjoy your time off, I might take some time myself in the next 2-3 weeks.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 03:22 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 03:23 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

BV,

I really should get off of PC now. I have lingered here a while today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just a note to say "hi" and hope you are well.

Hugs to you,

Pam

BV,

I will be around on/off for the day and the rest of the week. Next week, I am not sure. But, don't worry if I am around I will check in to see what you are up to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I really don't want to hijack BV's thread.

Just thought you might see this if I posted here.

Any little words of wisdom from you today?

I could really use a "get up and go" if you know what I mean.

Anyway, I get a lot from what you post to BV.

So thank you!

Pam

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 03:18 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

Oops. Sorry BV. Just posted above you.

Glad to see you back.

Will go read your post now.

Pam

Hi BV.

Yes I saw your post. Thank you. I also posted to you that same day.

Guess i was feeling a little desperate.

Not going to threadjack, though.

I enjoy reading JL's replies to your questions.

By the way, I think you have come a long way. Don't be so hard on yourself.

Hugs,
Pam

BV,

I believe I am 8 hours behind you, if I recall the difference while watching "The Open" on TV last weekend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I believe you are doing much better from what I have read. I know you are still in the fog and I suspect you are very depressed based on your inability to do relatively simple tasks. I would really recommend you consider addressing the depression. It is very likely situational, but it may also be due to hormonal changes in the body, especially due to stress.

A good physical would probably be a great idea if you can get them.

As for other things, it is hard to know how much you have changed since I did not know you before the A started or even during the A. But, I do sense that you are getting your feet under you. I do sense that you are starting to face what you have done.

Ironically, I think you will find that your life will become easier when you face it rather than worse as most fear, because your H is willing to work with you, change for you, and support you. What he needs from you is to finally face this, so that you can do something beside be paralyzed by guilt/remorse and/or fear.

You fear your old marriage, and I doubt that either of you could get your old marriage back if you wanted it. Yes, you can become comfortable with one another again, but that is a good thing. I think you and Mr. BV realize that a new openness and a new closeness are already there, consider last Sat. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What you are going to have to do is face this and ACCEPT your H. It seems to me you are fighting that, hence you can take little or no action. I realize that to ACCEPT him means that the A was really a waste and NOT the love of the century. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> However, BV that is reality. I know you are having a hard time accepting what you did, if it was NOT a great love, especially since you stated that you never wanted to leave your H.

Finally, I think you are starting to finally realize that recovery really is "simple" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> all it takes are two people willing to face the pain, and give love. Your H is willing and he is waiting on you to decide if you are. Is it "easy"? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> No!

You have not reached the 6 month point yet, and for some reason that seems to be a milestone in recovery. Often we see the BS start to show anger. It has been speculated that at 6 months the BS finally realizes the marriage will make it, and some of the pain and fear they have had comes out as anger. You do realize that anger is a secondary emotion driven by primary ones such as fear, pain, quilt, etc.

So I think at about the 6 month point you will see an improvement in yourself, and then it will continue on out to a year or two, at which point you two will have a new marriage and I think a more emotionally fulfilling one for you.

As for Mr. BV, I think changes are coming for him as well. He has always protected you, hence he has been somewhat withdrawn. As you get stronger, face all of this, and get your feet on the ground I believe you are going to realize that you can get the connections you want from your H IF you will protect HIM. If you will seek him out, and discuss HIS thoughts on things,and then help him.

I am sure he has sort of liked being needed by you. It showed he had a purpose in your marriage, but it made him the father figure. AS you get stronger, he will struggle and may be is now, with "does she really need me", espeically if you get stronger emotionally. You will get stronger but now you will need to speak of your needs rather than SHOW him by your emotional actions. You will be strong enough to help him and that will add value to your marriage.

So changes are coming, some of them are going to be ackward for you both, but if you face them with love and kindness and handle situations with grace (I love that word.) your marriage will become something it never was and that is much deeper.

Your H has relied on his faith to get him through things, and well he should. In my opinion, part of that reliance is due to the fact that he felt he could NOT rely on anyone else. AS his W, he needs to feel your strength as much as he does your remorse.

BV, you are a far stronger woman that you realize, but you poison your possibilites with alcohol and such. I am not a teatotaler, but I think your use of it is a medication, not a condiment of life. Do you see the difference?

So to reanswer your question, YES I do think you are changing and improving. I also think you are further along that you are willing to admit or willing to act on.

You have a good man there BV, cherish him, and he will cherish you. When it is all said and done, you will find that being cherished by someone and respected by your loved ones, is all the reward anyone gets or needs.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 03:19 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

BV,

The patterns are not just in FWW or FWH or BH's or BW's, the patterns hold for all of us, don't you see. That is the most amazing thing. We all seem to respond in similar ways to our needs and how they are met. That is why I stuck around, to learn more. And I have. If I can help as well, that is just wonderful icing on the cake.

I meant by "physical" a doctors check up to see if there is anything physically wrong. I suspect it is a US term.

Hope you enjoyed your cup with Mr. BV and I think you will come to see him differently as time move along. I hope you do realize that churches were built for "sinners". If we did not sin, why would we need to be reminded of our religion and its teachings? In my feeble brain, you need that church MORE than ever. And if there are good people there, you will be welcomed for who you are.

Oh! and who are you? Well you Mrs. BV, you are the Wife of Mr. BV, you are the mother of your children, you are a woman that has been active in the church, and you are someone that people enjoy knowing, AND...You have sinned. Who has not sinned BV? I ask you that.

You are defining yourself by your mistakes, rather than your accomplishments, and frankly your H feels your accomplishments far outshine your mistakes and he is the one most directly affected. Go to your church but see it for what it is, not a social place (although it serves that purpose), not a place you HAVE to go( although it is good to attend), but a place to find salve for your soul.

Your church is NOT there to torment your soul, but to give it comfort and guidance. Time to change that perspective BV. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> What you don't know yet, is that when this is all over, you are going to be in a much deeper marriage, your beliefs will be deeper, and you will see things as you never have, and it will be good.

BV this is a process that is going to lead you to where you might never have gotten to and in the long run it is where you should be.

Think about this, it is time to be optimistic not pessimistic.

God Bless,

JL

BV,

I hope you don't mind if I ask JL a question here? I knew he would keep up with your thread.

WElll....JL...

My H is a very wonderful man. He is handling this differently than Mr. BV because he is of course a different person.

Recently (I think because my depression has become so deep and a little long), he has become depressed.

I am concerned for him. It is nearly impossible when the two of us are both depressed! Yes, we will both work on things at different times, but we can't seem to keep up enough speed in the progress to kick the downs.

I don't think H will go on Anti-ds and I am not sure he needs them. He is also on a 9 month round of medication that limits him from many other medications. (thanks to his wonderful visit overseas <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).

I know I should be able to help him. I am often not doing that great of a job functioning myself.

Any suggestions? How is it we have ordained you the "mighty fixer of all MB marriages" ? J/K

I know you are human, but your input is invaluable sometimes, or we would not ask so often.

Anyway, no hurry. My H needs encouragement, and I am not doing a great job of helping him.

Thanks,
RAP

My H needs encouragement, and I am not doing a great job of helping him.

Why not?

Is there one single thing you ~could do~ that would help?

If there is... then do that one single thing that day, and the next day a new one single thing...

Know what.... you are THE ONE SINGLE person who matters the most .... to your husband .... and any effort you make means something.

Try harder.

No whining allowed.... I am in my "tough love" mode.... so WATCH OUT! ;P

Pep

RAP,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Recently (I think because my depression has become so deep and a little long), he has become depressed.

I am concerned for him. It is nearly impossible when the two of us are both depressed! Yes, we will both work on things at different times, but we can't seem to keep up enough speed in the progress to kick the downs.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I think you need to realize that this whole thing takes TIME and PATIENCE, T&P. Your H has to heal from what has happened. You are in withdrawal, and in someways it is an easier concept than what the BS seems to have to do.

First, you must understand that while your H's actions were direct, focused, and very right, he is sooooo uncertain of himself. You may be a bit like BV. She sees her H's acceptance of her and forgiveness as him not really being hurt. She won't say that but it is there in her responses. She is a kind person and would probably do her best to help someone who was physically hurt. But, she cannot seem to realize that he is hurt...deeply.

I suspect you are similar, the problem is you cannot see the wounds. There is no blood. And more confusing what is hurt is very complex. I would guess all of this has taken a lot out of your H. As I said he doubts himself probably as much or more than he doubts you.

Even more confusing you would think that he would be angry with you, and maybe he is. But, the pain he feels is the what has been lost. I would bet he never thought you would do this. In fact I would bet he felt he would have done this before you. So that innocence is lost. Further, he KNOWS he failed as an H, or you would NOT have done what you did. Whether he did or not is not a factor. He feels that you are there because of the kids, and guilt.

Do you see a theme here? It is a strange one given the situation. You are still on a pedestal to him and he cannot figure out where he stands. You would normally think he thinks you are beneath pond scum, but that does not seem to be the way of the BS. It is really the opposite, they feel lower than pond scum and wonder if they really are good enough for their WS.

So my advice to you is very similar to that I gave BV. Start small, hold his hand, touch him as you pass through a room he is in, thank him for doing something for you, show you appreciate that he is there and doing things. What he is going to want more than anything is first your respect and ultimately your love.

Doesn't that seem so strange, this whole thing can be so counter intuitive. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Find little things that you can do easily with little effort on your part ( you are down as well right), but make some effort but mostly make physical contact with him, sit next to him, lean on him, give him a pat when you go by, a quick kiss is ALWAYS a good thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Do you see what I am driving at?? Oh! by the way, as you start to do this, you will find out something very strange. You will start to think of him more than OM. You will start to see him in a different light, and YOU will start to recover. Odd how this works out, we help someone and we end up helped more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think H will go on Anti-ds and I am not sure he needs them. He is also on a 9 month round of medication that limits him from many other medications. (thanks to his wonderful visit overseas [Smile] ).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that takes all indecision out of the process doesn't it. He is on his own chemically. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know I should be able to help him. I am often not doing that great of a job functioning myself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes you should. As you saw I made my recommendations. I do think as you help your H you will function better as well. Who knows he may start to respond as well, and help you even more. Baby steps RAP. You can do this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Any suggestions? How is it we have ordained you the "mighty fixer of all MB marriages" ? J/K</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Frankly, I don't know how this situation came to be, but I am glad to be of any assistance and I can assure you that there have been, are, and will be much better than I on this site.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, no hurry. My H needs encouragement, and I am not doing a great job of helping him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know he will be encouraged just by knowing that you are worried about him. I will repeat a lot of things got torn up in this, but a lot of the damage is within himself and you can help just by being there with him.

Oh! one other thing that seems to help sometimes is for him to realize that YOU need him. Again it is the old if I help I get help thing. So don't be afraid of him, or his feelings. Talk with him, ask for his help, and thank him when he gives it. Sometimes you just will need him for a "soft spot to land" as Dr. Phil says so ask him if you can land on him every now and then. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 03:19 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

RAP/BV JL Said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you see a theme here? It is a strange one given the situation. You are still on a pedestal to him and he cannot figure out where he stands. You would normally think he thinks you are beneath pond scum, but that does not seem to be the way of the BS. It is really the opposite, they feel lower than pond scum and wonder if they really are good enough for their WS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I truly felt this way. When Julie and I were able to get this out in the open it was a big help to her and us in our recovery. She couldn't understand why I didn't hate her. I remember saying something to her like "I feel like I should be calling you a s!ut or a wh0re, but I can't." It's the contradicting feelings that we struggle with. And then we feel like we're not good enough for you.

Well, shortly after this, onlywords started 'showing' me more compassion. She'd just touch me as I held out my hand when she walked by. I made more of an effort to talk to her than I had for years. Things grew from there. Plus, the fact that we were touching and talking, I think had the effect that she started thinking about me more than OM and that in turn helped her in withdrawal. (I'm kinda just guessing on this last part, but it felt that way to me.)

Part of what Harley says is required for recovery is to spend 15 hours a week, undivided attention with your spouse. This is so true! Yes, it helped that I took 2 weeks off after dday, and another 3 weeks for surgery. But we also, spent time in our bedroom away from the kids just talking in the evening. (They would watch tv or just play and come up and talk thru the door when they needed us. But it did help!)

Good luck!
RH

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 03:20 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>