Thanks BV. I am glad to have a "crazy brit" praying for me overseas. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yes, Saturday is hard and i have been dreading it. But H and i are going to keep busy and I think that will help a lot.

I will pray ahead of time for success on your Sunday. I know how the anxiety feels. Ireally do.

You have a crazy red-headed American praying for you here,
RAP

Don't you know that red-headed in general implies crazy, stubborn, fiery, etc. etc. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just kidding.

Have a blessed nite,
RAP

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 03:10 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

BV,

I keep posting at the same time.

I will go now and read your posts.

I posted a couple times right above you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

RAP

BV,

I understand completely. Some of the thoughts that go through my head during this process are truly crazy!

But I still think JL's advice on the time and patience is really true.

It is moment by moment. I have thought a lot about OM's W lately. THat has helped me too. Hurts a lot to think of what I have done to her, but it helps in letting go.

I know others would get angry at this, but as you know, it doesn't get rid of our feelings even when we think of OM's W. We were adults and able to make right choices. I am having to come to grips with the fact that I was manipulated by OM even if he did not tend to harm me by that. In no way does that make me not responsible, but I am just having a hard time lately with the manipulation thing.

Excuse my rambling!

Love to you,
RAP

<small>[ July 26, 2004, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

NIte BV.

And no Nc is not red-headed. In fact, for 37 he is quite silver-headed.

Could that have anything to do with me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Love,
RAP

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 02:23 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

Broken Vessel -

I thought NC's post was funny too. He is a great writer! But I'm still embarrassed by it. I have never been one to fight or yell and I hate it. I was just exhausted afterward.
And the 9 things on your mind during SF was always a problem for me too. I didn't know that lots of women are that way, and felt there must be something wrong with me.

RAP - Hey, you did it girl - the no frills SF. That is a starter.

I would check with the doctor. I took anti-D's for 6 months and was still having problems. When I checked with doctor, it turned out I was on a very low dose.

Now that I am on a higher dose, I feel better (with a few exceptions).

Hang in there, you will get through this. I hope that NC doesn't have to drag you kicking and screaming!

BV and RAP,

I tried to post to you a bit earlier, but my DSL was down. I hope what I wanted to say is not too late.

Yes, BV I do go to church, but not nearly as often as I used to or need to. I say "your God" for a very simple reason, I believe your relationship to your religion and to God and your belief in God to be a very personal thing. And this is between YOU and God, right?

BV, If you keep telling Mr. BV, that I told you to give him a peck on the cheek or a kiss or... He may start liking me more than you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I am glad you did it, and if it made it seem more comfortable for you to tell him I told you to do it, then go ahead and blame me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BV, the way out of this is ACTION, and you took an action. I know you don't have the feelings you would like, but let me say yet again something I said before.

When you took your wedding vows you promised to LOVE your H. You did NOT promise to "be in love" with your H. What you did today was LOVE your H and I would bet he liked it. The feelings will come, and they will go, but gradually they will come and stay IF you create a loving environment for your Mr. BV and let him do the same for you.

It was not until I came to this site the full magnitude of what I just told you hit me. And as you think about it, you will come to see the ENORMOUS power of it. LOVE is a verb and it begets loving feelings. You have read here many times that a couple grows apart and somehow feelings go, and the love goes. Then you read about a BS discovering an A, and surprise the BS does in fact love the WS, but the WS did not know it. Then you read about meeting needs and people say well if you weren't meeting needs then no wonder the marriage failed.

BUT, I think they are wrong. Here is my take on this and I would like you to discuss this with Mr. BV. Most of the time spouses do love one another, but in life we get busy, distracted and we don't show our love. It is there. When someone becomes really distracted or tempted the lack of obvious signs of love is interpretted as NOT loving. And the "feelings" respond.

Now Harley is really saying in meeting needs you are finding OBVIOUS ways to show your spouse what was there all along, that you do love them. It is now just more obvious.

Now here is the part that is hard for you to grasp and also for RAP and a few of the other ladies.

When you use LOVE as a verb, and you do it in ways that your spouse can recognize, it builds loving feelings in...The spouse doing the loving. Interesting isn't it??? That is how a BS can hang on, because when they are forced to address their WS, they must act loving and when they do, it heightens their love and strengths their resolve.

How best to do that?? Actions, my dear, actions.

Now for you the WS the dynamics are the same but aren't as obvious. You want to feel love for your H, but you don't. OM's love bank is still pretty full right now. I mean he is NOT around to screw it up and make withdrawals. So his LB will have to dwindle as most of ours do by those darned bank fees, which slowly drain your account. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So her you are realitively full LB for OM, and a pretty empty one for H. You don't "feel" like you are in love with your H. But, that is OK. What you must do is keep your vows and LOVE your H, and what that will do is gradually fill YOUR LB as well as his and you will start to get feelings for your H as well.

Hence my 2x4 for you to do something, everyday do what you vowed to do, love your H. And when you do, with those pecks I ordered you to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You will see and feel changes.

Now, BV there is a subtle part to this that is hard for me to explain. I sit here and see what you write and what RAP and the other ladies write and I KNOW the answer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , or I think I do. But how to get you to see it. The answer is standing next to you, your H's.

You have no idea, how much he can help you if you let him. But it is nonlinear. As he becomes more comfortable with your efforts, he will respond in surprising ways. And as you start to see smiles on his face when you enter the room and say JL said for me to give you this, YOUR heart will lighten. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> As you see happiness return to him, you will see him continue to do his best tomake you happy, and gradually it will hit you. You have nothing to hide from because you are doing what you vowed, he is doing what he vowed, and it brings smiles to both of you...IT FEELS GOOD.

Don't you see, how simple this is? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

It really is simple, but as you know it is not easy. Ironically, how YOU treat your H now will be your salvation from what you did. It is that simple. Finally, eventually accept that your H is there because he WANTS to be there for you. He had choices and HE CHOSE YOU.

RAP, are you reading this?? I hope so. It was really some of your latest comments coupled with BV's post that caused me to post this to you all.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I just want to re-connect with Mr BV then I hope they will go, but I know I can’t re-connect at the moment because of the feelings. It seems a circle.

There must be a way to break this cycle. I know exactly what you mean. When I am in so much pain, as now, my H just sits on the sidelines. I have to snap back out of it for the weekend. He needs me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RAP do you see what I was telling BV? He is waiting and you have an opportunity to LOVE him even if you don't "feel" "inlove with him".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He left for work today saying he needed prayer for resentment about me having the A. I need you all so much because I feel so alone in how to handle this. Thank you for being there. I am realizing I CANNOT do this alone.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Resentment?? Not surprising. Ok RAP call a POJA session and tell him you and he are going to address his resentment. He is going tell you what he resents and then you are going to ask him how you can help him. Do this RAP. You will feel weird because I am sure you feel he should be directing this, but take change of his life for a bit and ease his burden. And it will help you. Smile, talk about how you feel, and what you want to do, honor your vows, by LOVING him. It will NOT solve all of the problems, but notice he is opening up and he is telling you things. Respond with actions, and words and reassurance that you are there to do your best. Put you hand on his hand when you do this. You will see the power of touch.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL I can’t ‘not’ fight the feelings. If I let them come they hurt too deep. It is simply too painful.

That is my main reason for the alcohol. I want to get past this point. I am truly tired of it. BV, hang in there. Like you, I am so thankful everyone is here.

Maybe it is becasue I am in the 'real' world now and have to let go of the 'world' I was in with OM and the reality of having to do it is finally sinking in?

At this very moment, that fact is hitting me. I really am moving on, and it terrifies me to let go in some ways. I have to face my H’s needs and the fact that I did this to him. I don’t feel capable sometimes, but I am asking God for his help.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are capable RAP and so is BV. But, just remember this does take time and patience. It is true you are still dealing with a pretty full love bank for the OM. It is there, and it will dwindle, but it takes time. Meanwhile reach out to your H, and do your best.

Ladies, if you and your spouses are of kind hearts, the love and feelings will return, it just take actions, consistent actions. Baby steps, but constant.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you JL for your comments about SF with H. Actually, he does understand about the crying. It did hurt him. I hate this. I don’t want to hurt him anymore. Ugh, I really hate this spot. But the SF was good, and he knows I was really there with him this time. Thank you for your help JL. I will really need it more. Thanks for your time and patience.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RAP everytime you are with him, you are doing something special. He can handle what came after as he realizes that this is sort of cleansing your system each time. Now if you tell him this, you might find yourself in bed ALOT. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But, do reassure him that you are connecting and feeling things as you two do make love.

You ladies are doing better than you realize, just keep up the actions and you will find you are breaking that vicious circle you feel yourself in.

Have a good weekend.

God Bless,

JL

JL, you really ARE very good at this you know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You do realise that I still struggle with all of this don't you. Those pesky thoughts about OM do still crop up when I don't want them but I'M in control of them now. And the thoughts about Rob (good ones) crop up a lot more often. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I really just wanted to say that I have done very much what you've told RAP and BV to do and it DOES work. My problem person at work was killing me, I mean really making me wonder if I'd taken the right job, and it is the right job, I adore the university and I adore the job but she was making things intolerable.

Rob, plugging away at me about how I would do this and get through this kept me going even when a Monday morning came that I didn't think I could even face going to work.

Weeeeellll, the other morning just after he woke up I said "you were very clever telling me I could do this and get through to the "person" so right now you're going to get your reward." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Everything about the whole "experience" was so perfect and I really felt all those tingly, in love, this is the man for me feelings.

The point of all this rambly prose? Love is a verb, JL is the best (so's my H - and I'm not giving him any pecks on the cheek from you JL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) and time and patience REALLY, REALLY, REALLY is the answer.

Jenny

Ladies -

JL is exactly right. You have to act like the wife you want to be first, then the feelings will follow.

That is what I am going to do about the Proverbs31 woman. I am going to study the verses and act on some of them.

I am not going to act like the brawling woman anymore, cause then that is who I will become. I took a couple steps backwards, but I am going to act like the Proverbs31 woman, until I start feeling like her.

Hi Jenny,

I am glad to hear things are going better. I think the time and patience thing sounds soo trite, but it is really key. The LB account that OM has with you or with BV or RAP, just has to decay away, because they are out of the picture, and that takes time, just like the bank bleeding you dry with fees. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Meanwhile, your account with H continues to build and eventually...HE GETS LUCKY. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Seriously, as you move farther away from this dynamics become more obvious don't they?

It is a stunning realization when it hits, the interhuman dynamics is really amazingly similar across each person, but so are the responses.

You know what I was most surprised at?

It was the wedding vows. I said them like everyone else, and I have done my best to follow them. But I did NOT truely understand how well the human condition was understood, and how the vows addressed our weaknesses and failings. I truely had not really considered what the vow to LOVE meant. I must admit I would have felt that it was "feelings" based, if asked years ago.

That is why I chose my name, I am still Just Learning all of this and I am edging close to 60. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Must go, but it was good to hear from you.

God Bless,

JL

JL, it's funny you mentioned the wedding vows. We (Rob and I) were married so long ago (30 years next month) that everyone still took the old vows and they took them in church. For better or worse...etc, etc. I haven't been to a wedding in years where they've taken those vows - now it's always something the couple have written themselves, which is lovely... but...the old vows really have it all covered.

Jenny

RAP: So it's red hair for you and silver for NCW? Wow, I never would have guessed that. I had ncw pegged as having black hair, though I don't know why. I guess your having red hair mysteriously makes sense now. Just kidding <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BV/RAP: I don't know if this is true or not, but I think that I heard that you're not supposed to drink while taking AD's? Maybe it's just certain ones though, I'm not sure. If you can, maybe you should try not to drink wine for a week, try to replace it with lemonade or iced tea.

BV: onlywords and I are doing well still. Our boy had his first day of football practice today (no, not soccer). He got his helmet and thinks that's cool. His younger sister is in camp for cheerleading. They're so cute at this age (10 & 9)!

Try to spend more time with your husbands and kids this weekend girls. With the weekends being hard on each of you, that may help to take your minds off of he who must not be mentioned.

RH

What is going on here? You make a promise to the wife to stay off “her” thread and you become the butt of all the jokes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
From believer:
runawaypot - Would like to hear more about your SF with NC. Is it too private, or could you share?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believer, whadda ya want? Pictures? Transcripts? What? It was SF. Shame, shame, shame on you. Also, be careful what you wish for as I think RAP is a closet exhibitionist. ROFL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
From runawaypot

I would like to share. I will probably share on the moving forward thread so BV can stick with here questions.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SEE! Closet exhibitionist! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
From BV:

Is NC ok? What work does he do?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am fine. I work as a mechanical engineer in a factory. It is hot, greasy, stinky, noisy and dirty but I love my choice in life. It is challenging work and not everyone can do what I do. It is at a metal foundry for a major company. You probably have some of me in your homes right now. Small world, huh?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
from BV:
pps.... Does NC have red hair then too if that list is correct!!? (temper thing...)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here we go on the temper thing again. I am PASSIONATE. I express myself and do most everything I do with 100%. I don’t try and hide the way I feel. Even when I get angry. I DON’T have a bad temper. In fact, the guys at work continually get on my case to see if they can MAKE me angry because I am generally happy and up-beat. When I do get angry, a lot of energy comes through. There is only one person who can usually get me angry, and that is RAP. Mostly because she knows me so well. I think that kind of scares me and bothers me at the same time. I don’t know why she can get me angry, but she can.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
From runawaypot:
And no Nc is not red-headed. In fact, for 37 he is quite silver-headed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here we go with the HAIR again. Look. I “had” a thick head of jet-black hair when I was twenty. I am 37 now and it is mostly gray. Salt and pepper. It is STILL thick and I am not bald or anything. In fact, whenever a barber cuts my hair they say it is beautiful, and nice and thick. What is going on here? In the Bible, the gray hair is referred to as a “crown of splendor” and a “sign of wisdom,” but do I get any of that? NOOOOOOO. Joke, joke, joke, JOKE. I am pleased with my hair, and if you all feel you need to make me the butt of a hair joke, go ahead. Me and my hair can TAKE it. I have worn it real long. I have worn it in a mowhawk. Right now, I keep it short and cropped. I am actually considering shaving it off and going bald for a while.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
from believer:
RAP - Hey, you did it girl - the no frills SF. That is a starter.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, there were PLENTY of frills. RAP is a little hottie once you get her motor started. I have been very blessed with my wife in that area and couldn’t really ask for any more frills. She never has a problem when I get her going. SECOND time for believer in the SF arena. Is that a pattern? Shame on you, girl!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
from believer:
I hope that NC doesn't have to drag you kicking and screaming!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I won’t even touch this one. RAP has been working out and could snap me like a twig right now. Kicking and screaming is more like the SF, anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
from JL:
RAP everytime you are with him, you are doing something special. He can handle what came after as he realizes that this is sort of cleansing your system each time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks JL, glad to see SOMEONE has a little faith in me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
from RH:
RAP: So it's red hair for you and silver for NCW? Wow, I never would have guessed that. I had ncw pegged as having black hair, though I don't know why.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HAD black hair. HAD black hair. Is it a crime to age gracefully? To NOT succumb to the cr@ppy ideals about how we have to all be beautiful that society continually plagues us with? Sheesh.

Guess I have to go get some Grecian Formula so I don’t LET EVERYONE DOWN! Wouldn’t want to disappoint the image of the angry, black-headed, non-fulfilled person you all think I am. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Any other questions? I’d be happy to answer them.

NCWalker

Okay ....


MODERATOR HELP....NEED AN EDIT...MODERATOR!!!!!

Here I go share a little bit in the SF area and my H decides to make it scandalous.

That is exactly why I don't share. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Sheesh. I feel I need to formally apologize for NCW.

Remember he is good with storytelling.

Oh well, I guess I will still keep him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

RAP

Still....MODERATOR...need an edit PLEEEEEEASE...

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 03:05 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 03:05 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 03:06 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>