</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong> Onlywords

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Since we're "speculating" here, it wouldn't be such a stretch to say that some of the people on this board maybe have a "need" to set other people straight, and maybe not a stretch to say maybe you have a "need" to BE a "father figure".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps you are right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So that may mean I am NOT good for BV as was suggested by MadMax and Pep.

It is a thought to ponder isn't it?

God Bless,

JL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think BV was becoming overly sensitive to your opinion of her...
and I thought her dependance on your advice was too flattering... It paralleled her relationship with her pastor-affair so much I was becoming uncomfortable... So I spoke up after Max expressed similar concerns (which surprised me)
Especially since she was determined to try and recover without real-life professional help.... and only rely on MB posters...
I feel concern she is on anti-depressants while still drinking excessively likely unbeknownst to her physician...
JL see my other thread about message board discussions.... thanks

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Suzet*:
Also, interesting how MANY posters in the past (including me) have posted on how these forums and website and people was a Godsend to them in their hour of need, but when BV posted that exact same words, you AUTOMATICALLY assumed she was exclusively talking about JL…that only HE was a Godsend to her on this forum.

Suzet</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did not automatically assume anything... I noticed a certain trend in tone and gradually became uncomfortable with it ...

and I kept silent because I did not know if I was imagining things...

and it was not until Max posted her concerns that I decided to post what thoughts crossed my mind from time to time about what I though was becoming a very risky situation FOR BV.

She seemed to be developing a strong dependance on JL that seems to fit right in with many descriptions Torn Assunder describes.

and don't forget... BV can always tell me I am wrong and to go take a hike!
Pep

Hi onlywords,

I too miss BV. I have always watched for your posts, BV's, KiwiJ's, Ky's, and Robby's. Not to mention the other WSs. Mostly because it helps me understand myself. Also, because many of you have made great strides in your Ms and it gives me HOPE..something my IC says I have lost. I am working on getting a hold of hope again.

I do read the BS posts. Right now, I will have to admit it pains me a lot to read their posts. I have tremendous guilt knowing that I have been on the "other side" of their pain.

I did okay last night. By the time I left, I felt great. But I had to run to the locker room to keep from crying a few times. I felt like such a wimp! I couldn't figure it out. I feel like I am moving on. I am hoping it is as you say. It does seem like waves. There are other things I would like to say, but I am afraid to right now with the atmosphere on here!

Anyway, thank you for asking onlywords. I have my IC with my Christian counselor today. She is actually a friend from church. I go to a professional IC on Thursday. I need as much as I can get right now.

I have started a bible study with my Christian friend by Beth Moore. It is called Believing God. I have a long way to go there. I also picked up another study by Moore called When Godly People do Ungodly Things...Arming Yourself in the Age of Seduction. Sounded interesting.

Love to all...hope you are there BV...I miss you, too,
RAP

JL,

Just so you would know...I honestly felt the posts here on BV's thread were under control.

We all deal with things in different ways. I did not feel BV was trying to do anything inappropriate. Both NCw and I thought your response to all this was good.

I have felt all along that you had the maturity to handle yourself appropriately with everyone here, even if we seemed to get "dependant" on you in any way. I honestly think there was just much appreciation contributed to your responses.

Thanks for all your help. We all have benefited and I personally felt it was all going just fine.

Blessings,
RAP

RAP,

It is very nice of you to say so. I think that you and NCW were helping her alot. I hope that BV gets the help she needs, and may eventually come back. I suspect she took what was said in a very hard and wrong manner and she is very much in emotional turmoil. I don't know if I contributed to it or helped her. Sometimes one never finds out.

I hope that you and NCW are starting to grow together abit, and that the healing is taking place. I personally think it will. Sometimes it takes a traumatic event to make us see what is really important and what is inside of us. Just remember this takes time and patience and I believe you will do well.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Thanks for the sentiment. I have high hopes for RAP and myself. First off, there is no way that I personally will let the devil beat me down. He might get a few battles, but not the war.

Secondly, there is RAP:
… prettier than she is willing to admit.
… stronger than she believes.
… smarter than she lets on.
… tougher than she feels.
… and she’s my best friend.

Her biggest problem is that she doesn’t know who RAP is. Can’t seem to make her see herself as God and I do. But we’re close. Right now, that is our biggest stumbling block. Not love, or communication, or understanding, but my darling wife’s stubborn opinion that she isn’t worth anything. ARGH!

After that, there is really only my issues. Pride. Insensitivity. Always having to be right. Self-motivation. You know, just little things really. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

NCWalker

NCW,

Ah! those niggling little details, don't you just hate them? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But, you know, the devil is in the details.

As for RAP, clearly I don't know her and have never seen her, I must tell you I am very impressed with her. That 4th weekend was one big mess, and she survived it. You pretty much read her the riot act at that point, and she understood and did the right thing. I am very impressed. I know she worries, and I know OM is still in her head and I know you have your worries, BUT...

It is clear she is a special girl and you are right, when she sees herself as you do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> it will be a special day.

I was in sort of a debate with www on the EN thread about self-esteem and who causes it. She blames society and such, but I countered that most people I have known that had self-esteem issues would NOT take feedback from those closest to them. They would never believe.

I sure wish I knew how to get around this, and I would write a book and become rich like the Harleys. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Seriously, if you could get her to listen to you about one thing, it is that you see her value, her beauty, and what is inside. She doesn't see that, but she needs to trust that you do and so does the world.

I really think you two are going to do well, actually better than well. You two are going to end up LOVING each other like never before. Have patience with her NCW and if you are peeking in here RAP, you have patience with him too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

BV please post!!
BV please post!!
BV please post!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


Love, KY

Hey everyone. Is NC around? I was hoping that we could get the men's view of SF here, and also the concert in the glass building. What happened?

Brokenvessel - Hope you are still here with us, even if you can't post.

JL,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is clear she is a special girl</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is the BEST girl (sorry ladies) and drives me insane with her self-esteem. I tell her how I feel and she says (what it boils down to) is "I don't count" because I am her husband, or biased or whatever.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was in sort of a debate with www on the EN thread about self-esteem and who causes it. She blames society and such, but I countered that most people I have known that had self-esteem issues would NOT take feedback from those closest to them. They would never believe.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have observed the same thing. They (I have seen several people like this) don't listen to those they should be listening to. I have not cracked this nut, myself. It is almost a self-destructive thing. They meet someone new that they like and become almost paranoid about what this other person thinks. Instead of easing into a new relationship they rush, then lurch to a halt, then rush, then lurch... It ends up souring the new person on the relationship.

RAP has done this to a few people, but what is strange is that she has more CLOSE friends than I do. There are about four women I can think of off the top of my head that think RAP is like a sister. I mean these women would do ANYTHING for her and love her tremendously. And it is not out of pity, it is because she is very giving and caring and nurtures these friendships. But THEIR opinions don't count either. She doesn't believe them, or will downplay these friendships. I would KILL for a friendship like that. RAP is the only one I really consider a close friend, maybe one other.

With her it is almost like a conquest thing, only the NEW people count. But it is not a game to her. I mean she doesn't discard and move on like a conquest, she keeps the close friends she has. But it is like she forgets or doesn't realize those friendships are a real statement of her self-worth. She is actually walking the walk with them.

If you contrast the two of us, she is by far the better person, even considering her transgression. But she is not steady because of this self-worth thing. I am not as complete in the "core" as she is, but am more steady and consistent with those I know. I have a lot less compassion for my fellow man than her.

She has a bunch of chores to do right now, and you know where she is at? The neighbor ladies house. This woman is having trouble with HER marriage. Far less than we have had. No A involved, it is simply a case of EN trouble. But here she is (with my blessing) strong enough today to reach out and she IS. (Like believer does, always reaching out, sorry, had to plug believer, she is amazing).

And it is frustrating me to no end because I SEE and KNOW the person that is in there and she can't see it. It will be a great day when that person comes out. I am hoping the IC will help. It goes WAY back to her childhood. She knows people like her and people who have no opinion of her don't bother her. She can't stand the fact that someone MAY not. I think the root lies there. The thought that someone MAY not like her drives her bonkers. And she dwells on it and it grows larger in her head than it is.

And believer keeps quoting my "DON'T GO THERE" philosophy (which BTW, I don't remember when I said that) and I keep hoping RAP will let that sink in. Don't dwell on it, it is not important.

I know what you are thinking - patience. But it is like this wonderful Christmas present that I know will be great and I can't wait to unwrap it.

She is probably going to be mad that I posted this. But I would really like some prayer for her. For victory in this. I mean when she is not bashing herself, she is really on fire for God. Puts me to shame. And I cringe when I think of what she is missing because of this. It is like she is being offered happiness and doesn't know how to receive it.

Has anyone out there beaten this? Is there a good recommended book?

NCWalker

Yo NC! (wow, sounds like talk from da hood!)

I'm the same way as RAP. My dear hubby tells me all the time how wonderful I am but I don't see it. I have gotten to the point where I can now say "Thank you" when he compliments me on how I look, what I say, etc. That's HUGE for me.

Did RAP come from an abusive household? I did and I think that has a lot to do with how I am.

I am reading Believers suggestion, "Seeing the Unseen." It's about spiritual warfare and what the enemy uses to undermine us. It's very insiteful and so far, biblically sound.

BTW - a couple of things for you NC. First of all, though we didn't give up the tv, I cut back on my computer time. Also, I am making it a point to talk more about how I feel. It's very difficult since I tend to internalize everything - same with the hubby.

I don't feel quite like something is "missing" anymore. It was after my hubby and I had a heavy talk a week ago I started feeling better.

I'm tellin ya - it's that whole communication thing!

NCW:

you said- </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And believer keeps quoting my "DON'T GO THERE" philosophy (which BTW, I don't remember when I said that) and I keep hoping RAP will let that sink in. Don't dwell on it, it is not important. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe, and I'm not positive, that this was around the time that Pep said she was betting on Onlywords and you said don't go there. At least that's the way I remember it, but my memory is not all that it's cracked up to be.

Prayers to both of you,
RH <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

NCwalker - I have heard (from you) "don't go there" so many times. Ask RAP. But anyway, it is really helping me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ncwalker:
<strong>And it is frustrating me to no end because I SEE and KNOW the person that is in there and she can't see it. It will be a great day when that person comes out. I am hoping the IC will help. It goes WAY back to her childhood. She knows people like her and people who have no opinion of her don't bother her. She can't stand the fact that someone MAY not. I think the root lies there. The thought that someone MAY not like her drives her bonkers. And she dwells on it and it grows larger in her head than it is.

She is probably going to be mad that I posted this. But I would really like some prayer for her. For victory in this. I mean when she is not bashing herself, she is really on fire for God. Puts me to shame. And I cringe when I think of what she is missing because of this. It is like she is being offered happiness and doesn't know how to receive it.

Has anyone out there beaten this? Is there a good recommended book?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NC, I struggled with similar self-esteem and self-worth problems than your wife because of childhood issues (including abuse). Although I’m not 100% altogether and recovered in every way…and although certain ‘wounds’ sometimes leave life-long ‘scars’, I have learned to accept myself and I’m much, much better than I was before I received IC and started to learn more about myself through websites; psychological books; self-help books etc.

I don’t know if your wife came from an abusive household, but if she does, an excellent book I can recommend is “Toxic Parents” written by the therapist Susan Forward. The book deal with ALL types of childhood abuse e.g. emotional abuse, physical abuse, mental abuse, sexual abuse, abuse because of an alcoholic family, neglect etc. It’s a great book for self-help, but it’s best to work through the book with the help of a good therapist.

NC, another concept, which was of GREAT help and insight to me, was the one of Transactional Analysis. The Transactional Analysis Model consitsts of the 3 ego states (the 3 functional parts of personality). This concept explains how parents (and other dominant figures) influence children’s ‘inner recordings’ & opinions of themselves and how that effects a person’s self-esteem & self worth. A good book to read on this is “I’m OK, You’re OK” but I can’t remember the name of the author. I have the book at home and will send you the author of the book tomorrow (on this same thread). In the meantime, here is a post I’ve send on this concept of the Transactional Analysis Model a few months ago:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most people who have survived child abuse and an unhappy childhood, have a unhealthy egogram (relationship with self). If you understand this concept, you will have a better self-understanding. Self-knowledge and understanding of “why” we’re experiencing these feelings and where is it coming from is so often the first step towards ‘healing’. Let me explain:

Personality has three functional parts – identified as the Parent (P), Adult (A) and Child ego states – which make up the whole person. These ego states are characterized by systems of feelings accompanied by a set of behaviour patterns.

The parent ego state is divided into a nurturing parent (NP) and a critical parent (CP) and contains moral and value judgments introjected from outside sources, mainly the individual’s parents.

The nurturing parent (NP) is that part of the self that has the potential to be caring; loving; encouraging; guiding; supportive; listening to; protective; affectionate and to allow these feelings within self and others.

The critical parent (CP) is that part of the self that has the potential to be critical; a strict disciplinarian, questioning, comparing, high expectations, display little affection; uncomfortable with feelings and to use words such as should, must will, can’t, won’t with self and others regarding above terms.

The adult ego state (A) is that part of the self that is the objective evaluator of reality, and has the potential to be logical; rationale, responsible, process information about the world and people in it; check out input; decisive; assertive; express feelings felt by the child ego state and be compromising in conflict situations.

The child ego state, in contrast with the other ego states, consist of the inner impulses and feelings states of the self. Like the parent ego state it is also divided into two part, namely the adapted child (AC) (sometimes also called the “hurting child”) and the free child (FC).

The adapted child (AC) is that part of the self which consists of a set of feelings and behaviours developed in response to parental demands and the demands of reality and is further divided into two parts:

1) Rebellious child (RC), that part of the adapted child self that can be impulsive; blaming; act out of feelings, for example have a tantrum of sulk or abuse alcohol; reckless; demanding in response to critical parental messages form others or self.

2) Conforming child (CC), that part of the adapted child self that is shy; pleasing; withdrawn; gives in; bottles up feelings in response to critical parental messages from others or self.

The natural/free child (FC) is that part of the self which is the spontaneous expression of the self and the capacity to be creative; have fun; expressive; intimate; energetic; original; feel the feeling and decisive and aware of choices.

All the above ego states are present in each person to a greater or lesser degree and develop in response to both parental messages and messages from reality introjected by a child. For example, a person who often feel anxious, useless and worthless through having constantly introjected messages from his/her parents, results in a permanent feelings of inadequacy.

A child who grows up normally and healthy with its needs being met physically and emotionally, will develop a healthy egogram with a big nurturing parent (NP), uncontaminated adult (A) and big free child (FC).

Someone with an unhealthy egogram will develop a big critical parent which hooks the own adapted child; an adult contaminated by a huge critical parent and a big adapted child and small free child. Such a person has introjected a huge critical parent (CP) from his/her parent/s and/or other authority figures, and even in the parents’ absence, carries on where they left off, being hard on him/herself, thus hooking his/her own adapted child (AC). This results in the individual’s behaving in a maladaptive way. Such a persons needs to develop a more gentle, nurturing parenting of him/herself. This will enable his/her free child to feel the feelings which have been bottled up or acted out, so that the adult part can give the feelings a ‘voice’ in his/her relationships with self and others.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NC, I think currently your W’s “adult” is contaminated and controlled by her “hurting child” and “critical parent”. Her “critical parent” controls her “child” and that’s why she gives bad messages to herself all the time and struggle with self-esteem and self-worth problems. In situations like this, the “hurting child” and “critical parent” also suppress the “nurturing parent” and the “free, happy child”. To overcome this, RAP needs to start accepting and nurturing the “inner, hurting child” through the “nurturing parent”. This will allow the "free, happy child" to come out. She can do this by giving herself positive, nurturing, internal messages instead of critical and bad ones e.g. in stead of saying “Inherently I’m a bad person”, “I’m not good enough for my H” she can say “I’m NOT a bad person. I’ve make some bad choices and mistakes in the past, but I’m still a good person”; “I deserve to be a happy wife for my H. Yes, I’ve made some wrong choices in the past, but I have received my H’s and God’s forgiveness and not going to let this unnecessary guilt control me any longer; the fact that I have remorse and repentance about past wrong behavior shows that inherently I'm good person with strong values and a good conscience”. I know this all sound very technical, but I hope I made some sense and I hope this post was helpfull! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Chackler, I'm trying to do better as well with taking the compliments. I now say Thank you.

It is just that the bad stuff is easier to believe, after years of verbal abuse as a child, the good stuff seems so unbelievable.

My H is great about telling me I'm beautiful and all that, but until you feel it inside then you can't hear it from others. Self Work....

My two cents. Have a great day all.

Rap, I happen to think you are pretty special too. Does that count??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

BV please post
BV please post
BV please post

KY - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey all, just noticed BV is editing all her post.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

It won't make us forget you silly!!!

If you want to BV you can email me personally at
kyellow4@yahoo.com

I'm praying for you, and hoping you are okay.
KY

ncwalker: My H had self esteem issues that affected him deeply, which we explored a lot in counseling. Transactional Analysis is very helpful, aka "Inner Child Work." Our counselor suggested "Healing the Shame that Binds You" and "Homecoming" by John Bradshaw. Also, if you are a Christian, you might try "Secrets of your Family Tree" by a group of authors including Dave Carder of Torn Asunder.

I have an old thread on some of the insights H and I gained from doing this work in counseling on In Recovery which I just bumped today for halseybach. You might check it out.

I can say, after two years of doing the self work, both my H and I have a much improved sense of self-worth. H and I were talking last week about another couple, and he said "Well, they don't have to like me," and really meant it! That was a revolutionary statement for him! He also was one who said that he "discounted" or refused to believe the positive things I said about him because "I was his wife and had to say those things." He's learning to believe them now.

Wow.

Thank you all for your responses. They were concise and easy to understand. I am going to look in to some of the reccomendations. I am familiar with the Bradshaw program already.

Am I just seeing things, or is there a link between self-worth and straying?

Praise God for this site and these concepts. I am definately introducing this material to my sons BEFORE they get married.

Believer - I put a link to my two analogies a couple of pages ago. Do you want me to move them to their own thread instead?

NCW

Please do Mr. NC...

believer and chackler,

OK. The Sex analogy (at the VERY PERSISTENT request of believer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) and the concert hall analogy are here.

The Analogy Compendium

What else may I do to serve you, oh great and wise women of the web? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

NCW