believer,

BTW, I asked RAP about this "Don't go there" philosophy. I was curious to what you were referring because I could not remember posting that as a "theme" to anyone per se.

According to RAP, I pretty much just say it all the time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Never realized it, so it must have just transferred to your brain via osmosis through a few of my posts.

Hey, if it helps, you go girl.

NCW

NC -
I don't know if it was osmosis, but it really helps. After just days of doing it, I am not thinking about WH and OW anymore.

I having been praying about it, and I think your "Don't go there", is the trick. It is strange how easy it is to influence your mind.

BV - Please email me at digsblues@aol.com.

Firstly I would like to apologise for not being here to respond...( personal issues) I was anticipating a response to my opinion, but family and friends first.

My opinion was based on observations, I sat quiet for quite sometime but well it came to a time where I felt something had to be said. As it turned out I was not the only one with the same mind set.But even if I was alone in my thoughts, my response would be the same as follows.

No matter what core issues are at play.

When helpers and helpees develop a relationship the expected and necessary outcome is independant behaviour. This was not the case with BV...the behaviour from the helpee in this case was becoming more and more dependant...its destructive for both parties involved.


In reflection of my post...there isnt anything I would change... sure I could have replaced inappropriate with unhealthy or similarily I could have used both together. Both words are acceptable.

Now for those of you, who seem to think my tactics are inappropriate...thats OK...I can live with that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Max

madmax - All opinions are always welcome. I really thought about it, and read all of JL's posts to BV and others - especially LLG. She was a deeply pentitant WW. Her posts called out to JL even more pleadingly than BV. No one said a thing.

IMHO WW's are still bear the brunt of disapproval and anger, especially when they are still having feelings about OM.

madmax - Although I am the BS, I have come to realize that their is something very wrong in the minds of WW's. My WH's OW left her home, her husband, her daughter, and way of life to live with my WH. It is scary how much some give up, and makes me believe that they are like drug addicts. There is no other explanation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
<strong> It is scary how much some give up, and makes me believe that they are like drug addicts. There is no other explanation. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">believer, I think you are exactly right. This is why I relate so much to SOME WS's, because I am a recovering alcoholic. Their thoughts, feelings and actions are straight out of the addiction playbook.

I have been accused before of being against them, but I am not against them, it's just that I understand them. I don't buy their BS, I see right through it. I know that they live in a world of self delusion, rationalization and dishonesty because I used to live in that world. I know them.

Any recovered addict or alcoholic would recoginize their language, because many speak the language of doublespeak and bullshi*, and rationalization. Those of us with addictions in our background know that language. We are fellow bullshi* artists!

[p.s. to clarify, I think the vast majority of our WS's are not in a fog and I don't believe they are delusional. I am talking about the ones who are fogged out in the throes of an addictive affair. Most of ours have woken up by the time they get to this board.]

<small>[ July 29, 2004, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Hi Melody -

I know I should hate my WH's OW, but I can't. It is beyond belief what she has given up. She and her BH have been married 15 years. They had a life together, and got along well.

Her husband had to go to Iraq to fight in the war, and my WH was trying to comfort her. And I really believe that is how it started.

Now OW has lost everything. She has a 12 year old daughter who she doesn't even see. She lives with my WH is a bedroom in a rented house.

There is no way for me to look at what has happened, but to look at her as an addict. Her addiction has taken over her life. Very, very sad.

believer, I don't think you should hate her either. She has lost the war with her basest instincts. She is making decisions now that will cause her pain and regret for the rest of her life.

Believer...I don't read all posts.

Nor do I harbour anger and I absolutley agree about you not hating the OW also. Indifference is where I like to sit on that one...and the veiw is just dandy from up here.

Yup I have certainly been bitten by adultery and the addictive behaviour patterns associated with it.

But there is also a lot more underneath those behaviour patterns...and unless those issues are reached...it will happen again or at the very least some other form of destructive behaviour will.

Max

madmax - Yep you are right. I have no bad feelings about OW, nor my WH. It is hard to figure out. I don't have indifference yet, but am working on it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by madmax:
<strong>When helpers and helpees develop a relationship the expected and necessary outcome is independant behaviour. This was not the case with BV...the behaviour from the helpee in this case was becoming more and more dependant...its destructive for both parties involved.

In reflection of my post...there isn’t anything I would change... sure I could have replaced inappropriate with unhealthy or similarily I could have used both together. Both words are acceptable. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This (and the whole drama about BV’s interactions with JL) made me think & wonder about the relationship between a psychologist/counselor and an opposite sex patient… The relationship that often develops between a counselor and the patient during a certain time of intense therapy is indeed of dependable nature for some time. It is very normal for the patient to develop a very close bond with the therapist and view the therapist as a “parent” figure for some time during therapy. Often this phase of counseling is very necessary for a patient’s healing during the personal recovery process and of course the patient must then be encouraged to become independent again when the time is ready and after the patient have reached a certain stage of recovery.

Now, I know this is only a message board and not really the place to develop a real therapist/patient relationship with someone, but since JL is a psychologist himself (as far as I know), I think this is exactly what happened with BV...especially since she wasn't willing to get real, face-to-face counseling with a good therapist yet. IMO BV developed a therapist/patient relationship with JL and it developed to the dependency phase and was probably neccessary and of help for her personal recovery, although many posters here didn't think so... I just think if this 'theraphy' with JL was something she really needed at the time, and something JL could monitor and handle (since he is a psychologist himself), I can’t really see how this could be so destructive & inappropriate/unhealthy for both parties. I’m sure on a certain stage JL would be able to recognize that BV was ready to become more independable again and that he would be able to distance himself from her in a tactful way… NOT this immediate cut-off from the board because of other posters wrong & inappropriate assumptions and accusations. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> However, since she don’t feel safe to post here anymore, I really hope she will find the help and support of a good counselor whom she can speak with face-to-face.

This brings me to another point – is therapy with an opposite sex therapist something that must be discouraged and avoided? I would like other posters opinions on this. JL, what do you think? In my opinion it probably is and this is the reason why I partly understand this big concern about BV & JL's interactions...(just interesting that nobody complained about the same interactions female posters developed with JL and other male posters in the past... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ). Anyway, I'm against opposite sex friendships and very sensitive about interactions between two opposite sex people that might become unhealthy, (especially after my inappropriate friendship with OM) and this is also the reason why I have never considered going to a male therapist…I wouldn’t feel comfortable with that at all.

I have often read how opposite sex therapist and their patients frequently falls in love with one another (or the one with the other) when a certain stage of emotional/spiritual connection between the therapist and patient is reached during intense therapy. Of course these feelings is something that can’t be expressed or reacted upon in any way because of ethical and other reasons... Sometimes the therapist/patient is able to continue therapy in spite of those feelings, but many times the existence of those feelings is so interfering that therapy needs to be discontinued for the sake of one or both parties best interest.

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet,

JL is a psychologist????I didn't know that....did BV know that?


Max,

Can I safely assume that if there had been a way for you to call BV on your suspicions PRIVATELY, then that is what you would have done? There was, unfortunately, no way to do that here....and BV felt so BADLY about herself for having an affair that to be publicly accused of inappropriate "behavior" on this board had to have been so tremendously humiliating and embarrassing...
I honestly don't know if you were right about it or wrong....but at the end of the day, the ONLY person's opinion on this that mattered was her husband's. I don't know if it is a complete stranger's place to confront someone like that...you just don't know enough.

Onlywords

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by onlywords:
<strong> Suzet,

JL is a psychologist????I didn't know that....did BV know that?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Onlywords, if he is not a psychologist I think he is a counselor or therapist or something... I hope I'm not confusing him with another poster on these boards... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . I remember how BV a few times said she needs and benefits from JL's 'counseling' and how he said to her that he is willing to 'counsel' her, but that he thinks she might also benefit from face-to-face counseling... Maybe the way they talked about it gave me the impression that he is a counselor or therapist of some sort? Now I'm not sure anymore... My mistake if I was mistaken guys. If this is not the case, will someone please correct me.

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 05:51 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

OW... Can I safely assume that if there had been a way for you to call BV on your suspicions PRIVATELY, then that is what you would have done?

yup...> face to face...challenged BV's behaviour...no if's or but's about it.


I have said it once and say it again..this is not the bestEST of mediums.

We can all speculate Suzet* from (the) tranference(effect)(s) to the effect(s) of counter-tranference...


Max

Max,

Good to know....hate to "assume" you were confronting BV coming from a place of bitterness based on your past experience as a BS. Wouldn't even want to "suggest" that, seeing as how you may react defensively to such a suggestion amd possibly create a bunch of "ill" feelings. (I'm not saying you WOULD react that way...I would think you would want to "correct" me if I was wrong, though, eh?)

Also hate to "assume" anything about BV based on her past experience as a WS....because things don't always come across accurately around here.

With respect,

Onlywords

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: onlywords ]</small>

I am fairly certain that JL is a physicist. - NCW

Yes, NcW, I remember him saying so.

All,

JL will probably come in and set the record straight. It is my understanding he's not a therapist or counselor or even related to the Harleys! Some have thought he was a Harley!

He's a scientist!

Hello All,

NCW is right I am a physicist. I have thought long and hard about what to say about all of this. I presume you all read my post to BV just before she left expressing my thoughts about MadMax's and Pep's comments.

If you read my posts to her all were directing her back toward her H. As all of you know she was/is reluctant to see him in a new perspective. It has been my experience here that for many WS seeing their spouse in a positive light is a big thing. When that happens the "perspective" on the relationship begins to change and recovery can begin.

BV, very much wanted and needed guidance, and frankly she needed to be in the hands of agood professional. However, I was and am very reluctant to hurt her as she was clearly in a very sensitive state. I am still reluctant to say anything bad about her for two reasons: she is trying to change, and she is very sensitive. But, she does seem to have a very dependent nature right now. I have no idea if this is normal for her. And yes the alcohol and the sleeping pills did bother me and I said as much to her.

This next part is very difficult for me to quantify in words. I have been posting here 5 years, reading here for another 7-8 months before my first post. In an odd way, I feel a friendship with many on this site especially the one that have been here a long time. Yet, in a way this all is NOT real as with the exception of a few members here that I have met in person, I will never meet you or truely know you, nor have any connection with you.

My interactions with BV were based on the simple fact that her situation touched me as do many others here. Hence the endeavor to help her see things differently. However, there was NO CHANCE of any inappropriate feelings or behavior. What I get out of this site is seeing people overcome these things and their marriages start to prosper. I don't really get any relationship out of it.

I realize this sounds cold, but that is the reality of a site such as this. Now I will say that I am sure if I were to meet most of you, that I would throughly enjoy your company. In the few cases I have met MB'er's it was really fun, but you want to know something very interesting. We did NOT talk much if at all about the topics here. We talked about real life, hobbies, where people had been, and in one case the person had worked for one of my closest friends in college and life. It is a small world.

With regard to BV, she was very dependent on this site and perhaps me, but actually if you noticed she was posting on many peoples threads. I sensed and still do think, she was actually just looking for friends that she could unburden herself to, to lighten her load before she really addressed her marriage. Perhaps I am wrong, but I would like to think I am not.

There is one finaly thing I would like to mention. People are pretty normal on this site in that they will find a person or group of people that some how they "click" with and they will continue to post to one another. Perhaps it is shared views or perhaps it is the ability of one person to "speak" the other persons language, but it happens often and it is not dangerous or sinister. It is pretty normal.

With few exceptions people then drift off of this site as their lives change and their marriage prospers or it ends. And the some will come back just to say Hi! I know of only a few cases where MB'ers have actually gotten together and started a relationship, but it does happen.

But, I don't worry about that personally, I am too old for you ladies anyway <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> AND you are all married as am I. And for me that is a show stopper and has been a show stopper even when I was a young and wild batchelor in my 20's.

I really don't know what else to say except that I hope that BV and Mr. BV do find peace and happiness in their lives and marriage.

God Bless,

JL

Dear JL,

That was a very nice post...and I appreciated everything you said. I do hope that BV is still at least reading and knows that she can come back with her head held high...she has absolutely nothing to be ashamed of, and neither do you.

Thanks for writing that.

Onlywords

JL,

I too appreciate your last post. I also have received much from previous posts of yours.

In all honesty, I really do see a lot of myself in BV. Some of that would be the sensitivity and desire to find friends to "unburden" myself to.

I am slightly ashamed of how sensitive I can be, but I know I am growing and wanting to change now.

That was the bottom line for me with BV (and myself). I truly feel BV wants to have a successful marraige and self-perception. We all go about that in different ways.

I have always said I tend to learn slowly, but when I get it I hang on for dear life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> It hurts to see someone who was doing her best, with her own "flavor" and personality, run out of here like that.

Again, I really see a lot of myself in BV. Some characteristics I want to change (as does BV), but some I am happy to have. It takes all kinds of people, right?

onlywords,

Your posts are exactly right IMHO about this situation. Thanks for wording them in such a great way! I want your ability and NCW's!

RAP