I wanted to comment because I believer the WS's are missing a very valid point.

PLAN A is hard as hell! I've been reading alot of posts and many WS's come here while still being a bit foggy..and they make attempts to justify injustifiable actions. These WS's get slammed instead of cajoled and sympathized with for their inapporpriate and sometimes downright cruel actions. What would you rather our responses be,
"I understand you cheated on your W or H, you had good reason, don;t blame yourself?"

How is that going to help you wake up to the fact there is NO excuse for an A, be it an EA or a PA?

It's not as if the BS doesn't get slammed, believe me. When a BS starts down the road of discovering their LB's believe me it's a slamming road full of guilt in itself. The BS is typically the one who will seek out information about how to save their M and during that seeking we digest LOADS of information, and during that search we began to see how we did so MANY THINGS SO VERY WRONG FOR SO VERY LONG...it's an extemely sobering experience.

I understand how a WS may feel defensive when they receive unsympathetic responses from some of the replies, but truly there is no 2 ways around it, YOU DID WRONG, NO EXCUSES and the same goes for the BS who has LB'd, albeit unintentionally.

The sword cuts both ways, but you'd have to be on our end to feel it's pierce.

Hang in there, this site has helped open my eyes to many opinions, expert advice and a world of ways to better myself and then my M.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ July 21, 2004, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

FG,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Affairs occur because the affairee did not protect him/her self from their own weakness. - So to protect oneself from one's own weakness, one should what? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent question? This stuff should be taught to us BEFORE we get married...divorce proofing and affair proofing our marriages. We give out drivers licenses, etc after education. But marriage licenses are given out just because two people want them.

My church will NOT marry ANYONE who does not go thru mandatory marriage counseling beforehand. And guess what? The counseling goes on for 5 months. It covers all this stuff, plus the Scripture side.

How do we protect ourselves? Education!!! Our parents did us woefully wrong by just sending us down the aisle and not educating us on this.

Believe me, my kids will KNOW all of this stuff, well before any engagement rings are exchanged.

You're right. My wife and I were both somewhat unaware to what was happening to us and how our needs were going unment. Shoot, my wife was telling me how much she loved me, how I was her bestfriend (and meant it) right before I was deployed. And two weeks after I left, the A started. It definitely snuck up on her.

But to protect ourselves is hard. It depends on whether you are a WS or a BS. Now, how do you know BEFOREHAND? Dunno. This sound crazy? Sure it does, but let me give you an illustration in order to get my point across.

How do I protect myself from alcoholism? Well, dont drink. But I like to have an occasional wine, or beer with the guys. But how is it, even when I would go out and have a good time (if you know what I mean???), that I never crossed that line....while my wife is VERY susceptible to becoming an alcoholic (she isnt one, mind you)?

Is it DNA? Is it upbringing? Is it both? What makes me different from her? You see, I dont really need to protect myself from alcoholism because I really do not have any urge, and never did even in tough times, to drink to the point where I am an alcoholic. My wife can, and has had the urge...but held herself back thru sheer willpower. So, she needs to protect herself against those urges and tendencies.

When it comes to affairs, I have no urge to have an affair. I would rather leave my wife, get a divorce and then find someone new. Do I still feel I want my needs met? Sure, just as much as my wife. But I have no inner issues that cause me to go over the line. I would just never do that. And I am the "dog" in this relationship (talking about sex here gals...I am the typical man!!). And I crave affection (my top three needs are SF, affection and affirmation...and none of them have been met over the last 3 years). But, my inner needs have not pushed me toward an affair. Divorce, maybe. But not an affair. And I have had plenty of chance...and thought about it.

My wife on the otherhand, has found out that she has to create HUGE boundaries. As we work thru recovery (or not...still dont know where this train is going for sure), she still has these urges to run, to seek safety with someone else. And she KNOWS all it would take is another guy like her FOM to meet needs...and she will get pulled back in. Just as sure as the sun comes up that you wave alcohol under an alcoholics nose that they are going to crave it...even though they dont want it (a VERY key distinction here).

So, I would love someone to do a study on what it is (DNA, upbringing, something else) that is in the WS, and not in the BS, that causes them to go over the line. I think then, we could understand what to do to protect ourselves.

But until then, I still say education before marriage on what it is about, the anatomy of an affair, how to meet needs, etc. is the best way to protect ourselves.

In His arms.

Yes, sometimes there is a choice and most people (I DID) know when it turns from a harmless compliment to an open flirt... but by then.. your right.. the WS is weak, because it feels good to them.. and that sounds horrible, but it's the truth.

Affairs occur because the affairee did not protect him/her self from their own weakness. - So to protect oneself from one's own weakness, one should what?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I think you answered your own question! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

If you have discovered that flirting is a weakness of yours... you can go to "harmless compliment" to "wowzee-flirting" in the flick of an eyelash ... then there is really no "harmless flirting" for you. Compliment women and really old men only.

Know where your weaknesses are... and abstain.

Imagine if we were discussing dieting. And you told me you could not stop at one Dorito ... if you eat one ~woosh~ you plow through the entire bag.... I'd say to ya ... "Don't eat one."

Pep

Pep,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Compliment women and really old men only. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So THAT is why I have been getting compliments ugh! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Old men indeed! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

You know another reason people have affairs?

It seemed like a good idea at the time.

I mean let's face it, guilt, conscience, etc are over ridden because it seems like a good idea. That seems to be a reality people are really hurt by.

And in retrospect, the follow up question is: "What was I thinking?"

Ah! the logic free zone of an A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But, seriously there is a logic to this and it is one of the hardest things a BS has to deal with. No matter how twisted or out of character, or little justified, there is a logic. I think that is what many counselors particularly the Harley's are trying to point out.

JL

People don't like making difficult choices.

Lots of things in life re2uire "either/or" choices. You can't live in 2 places. You can't be M'd 2 more than one person.

When facing the decision as 2 whether it's "reasonable" 2 shag it with a "friend", knowing you're M'd, how many potential WSs go 2 their potential BS and ask if that'd be okay? Probably somwhere between 0 and 1.

More realistically, how many of them think "Hm... well, this particular EN of mine has gone unmet for a long time. Maybe potential OP can fill that one out for me?" ...I doubt this very much, though talking 2 an opposite sex friend about your personal life can "reveal" unmet ENs. But even in those sitches, I'd be willing 2 bet the whole convo is contrived, and the A takes off because the contrivances (those going on in both WP's heads) are in phase.

If unmet ENs are "reasons" for As, then the BS, who's not meeting them, is responsible for the A. And folks, if *I* am 2 be held responsible in any way, shape, or 4m, for my W's A with RM, then by golly I'm going 2 take charge of ending it...

...In truth, though, I knew pretty quickly after d-day, after coming here, that I had nothing 2 do with my W's choice 2 have an A - a choice I was not privvy 2.

Weakness or off-centered morals or something insideous like character flaws are the "reason". ENs (or whatever) are the excuse.

And there is absolutely no justification, so let's not even go there.

-ol' 2long

How did I get involved with OW?

BS was out of town a lot. And, when I did bring up that I was lonely before the A, she said that I was childish and possessive and that I owed it to her to let her go see her family whenever she wanted. I became progressively more unhappy, until the M seemed like a prison to me. My W was unaware, of course, of the problems and thought that everything was wonderful.

I had been talking to a co-worker. I don't think it was an EA at all...we were simply friends. When I knew my W was going to be out of town, I told her I had extra tickets to a play, and so we went out. Two weeks later I was jumping OWs bones, which led to two of the worst years of my life and my W's life. The decision to jump into bed with OW was mine, and it was a terrible decision that I regret to this day.

Most WSs seem to be similar--there is something that is wrong with the M and they don't know why or how to make it right, so they try to fix it by having an A, and end up in a horrific nightmare.

Had my W and I had better skills in dealing with problems, I would have talked to my W and said something like, "We've got to reach an agreement, or else I'm walking." But, I didn't have those skills.

Generally, most WSs simply need some education and skill development, and they wouldn't have had an A.

Of course, it seems that there are some WSs who simply are serial adulterers--people who have A after A without remorse. And, there seem to be some BSs who are just as wacky.

Jimmy, that was a good self-analysis. From reading here I think alot of wayward spouses were poor at communicating their unmet EN's. And the BS were just as poor at picking them up. I do agree with you, if you had intimated your feelings with the caveat that if something didn't change I believe you W would have entered counseling or another avenue to address the problem.

But as long as she thought that it was ok, even though you held a hidden resentment, there was no reason for her to change, or meet your EN's.

Hope all is well with you both now.